Simple cos theres none of that endless CCfest, which ghostcrawler was trying to create the whole time up to the day he "decided to leave" ?
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Member
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Banned
simple as in 3 spell offensive rotations/1 button spam waiting fro procs, lackage of abilities to react to half situations....clunky slow and boring mechanics in general
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Forum Veteran
Check the videos I've linked so far: as you can see on the Piffzorz movie, the fact he can rely on a massive amount of crowd controls has led to the point that his gameplay has become something way more similar to an endless tunneling on his target, way more static (and from my point of view, way more boring) than what you can expect from a wotlk warrior. And yet you considered Zage a tunneler. Three button spam rotation? Such a pity that this format exacty describes the rotation of cata/mop warrior, who doesn't need to wait for a casting spell to apply the unrelenting assault with his overpower ability or who doesn't even need to apply a single bleed like rend or a debuff like sunder armor. Add these differences to what I've already mentioned about cc abilities and here you have your mop pvp gameplay: tunneling like a paintrain without the need to consider your positiong or saving your cooldowns for the right moment to achieve the kill that you need. Is it more complicated? No, it's just different, you need to be less patient but you need to deal a more costant pressure. In every wotlk video you will always see an explanation of a simple tatic:
- wait for your opponents to use their cooldowns or use yours in a defensive way in order to counter them
- wait for the moment when they have nothing more to use and build your crowd control chain which can let you achieve a kill, with the help of your offenisve cds
- always turn an eye on your healer/ partner with your supporting abilities, snares, ccs etc etc...
Do I see something similar on a mop pvp video? No, because the player is always putting a costant pressure on the enemy team relying on the fact he doesn't need to time his cooldowns and he has a massive amount of crowd controls. You may consider this a more intense pvp gameplay, but there is no logic argument on the earth which you can use to define this as a more complicated pvp scenario. It's just different, get over it.
Should we consider the point of view of a caster? They used to be called that way because they actually needed to cast some spells, such a pity that from cata a lot of offensive abilities and cc of every rdps spec has become istant and you can turn around fighting mages, shamans, locks and shadow priests who don't even need to cast a single spell to deal an massive amount of damage. Have you ever seen a fire or arcane mage pvp montage? An endless spam of scorch and arcane blast, so ****ing funny and intense right?
And last but not least, I will never understand why from cata they decided to pull away from the pvp scenario every kind of tanking spec like protection paladins and warriors. Do you like the fact to rely to a lot of mobility and ccs? Try to play a protection warrior on wotlk at his full potential (even if I doubt you can do it) and maybe you will understand where the mop playstyle has been introduced for the first time in this game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEHkBl42FzA
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Member
Well, given all that has been written so far, it seems that this topic needs to be closed ! :)
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Banned
too long didnt read i know you dont have anything new and smart to say...i agree this topic can be closed
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Banned
ill just leave you with this that sums up all this wotlk nuthugging perfectly
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Member
You should read more about mop and you should know that pve gear scales down in arenas and Battlegrounds,can be used in world pvp but never in arenas and Battlegrounds.Also you cant equip pve weapon in MOP like in Wotlk from the simple reason if you lack pvp power your not hitting hard enough(the weapon gives most of the pvp power) trinkers can be used but not recommended inside a BG or arena cuz the outcome will result against you lacking pvp resilience is not the way.Also for pvp gear in pve dungeons or raids it goes from 522 Griveous down to 490 when you enter a dungeon or raid and you can get easy 2 shot from trash mobs,or if we speak for kinda bugged bosses 1 shot in a single aoe phase.
If i missed something or some info is wrong quote me back...In world pvp Pve gear is better than pvp gear does more dmg :)
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Member
Let's clarify something,you are a frostwolf mop warrior and you are upset because pvp is dead and you can't anymore grind 3k1 rate there ,we understand your frustration but please stop making your own conclusion and make it looks like a reality,your actual judgment is based on your personal taste and is not really a brilliant logic .
Blizzard ****ed up with their xpac since wotlk and they are paying their mistakes ,you should ask their opinions they know how big portion of market they lost.
By the way it was proven that they don't care about pvp ,they balance all time their game around pve.
And game is more dynamic because you have more fillers spells,it give you the illusion that you are making something nice while in the end you are just waiting for your procs and one shot macros to chain your 100% success cc and burst.Edited: October 27, 2015
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Banned
What OP actually means with the photo's can be compared with modern society:
Life is getting simple and easy compared to the oldschool days. You see this with dj's, moviemakers, game developers etc. Everything nowadays is easy and cata/mop/wod is the same. The older the expansion the more difficult it was. When playing Wotlk at a higher level you need atleast a minimum of 25 keybindings to be better than average while you only need about 10 at Cata/Mop/Wod.
That's a fact since every espansion the amount of abilities and talents is reducing or simply removed. Nowadays dj's also say it's harder to mix a crazy beat while actually it's piece of cake. Getting the idea of a crazy beat on the other hand still requires some creativity and feeling for music.
Op uses the correct photo's though, back in the old days hockey was hardcore, playing without any kind of protection while nowadays they need to be suited up... Yes op, wotlk is hard to play and in the new expansions almost everything get's done automatically you just have to click a bit and move forward without using your brain.
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Banned
Nostalgia much? Not like i defend MoP since its a trash xpac. Cata is the treshhold , after that everything sucks.
Its pretty distubring that u cant even follow ur quest line on WotLK, as a new player w/o any friends u would be stuck there at a red quest simply following ur quest chain, when you're lvl 15 and the quest mob is 20, with a pack of 20 mobs near it. Some ppl would've been losing patience and claim that its too hard and quit it. If questing is that freaking hard I wonder how a simple raid is , to finish. 6 months preparing for one boss? Lol. Never played wotlk so i wouldnt know. I played on lord till lvl 21 and my eyes bleed how outdated it is. The only epic thing ive noticed there so far are the quests since i also really like to read them. I enjoyed the warlock class quests , to learn pets. In MoP you instantly get them .. rofl. I still don't know whats the point having a trainer other than respeccing
Speaking of keybinds.
I got 52 keybinds on my resto druid on MoP , so idk what you're talking about.
Yeah, on my warrior i have barely 24. Comparing wotlk warrior with MoP warrior, even a 5 year old kid could reach 2k rating as a MoP warrior. Stupid dmg, stupid mobility, everything. The only thing thats stopping them are some 1-3 second roots. Pray that it wont break too early
Tl:dr : Play warrior on mop, or simply don't pvp if you're aiming for a decent/high rating. Or just dont duel. The only classes that can beat me in a duel on my war are hunters and maybe assass rogues. Thats it.
Thats stupidEdited: October 30, 2015
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Forum Veteran
We were talking about pvp. I don't know why you are throwing the quest subject into the discussion but I will deal with it. I definitely don't know which quest chain you are talking about but if you have some troubles with higher level mobs just stop, do some other quests and come back when you will easily be able to kill them. Class quests are one of those things I like the most about the questing scenario pre-cataclysm revamp. They are the spicy thing which give you the real feeling you are playing an unique class, with its own purpose and role in the game. The fray island quest you have to complete in order to learn the berserker stance it's one of my favorite, along with the one which rewards you with the great whirlwind axe. You have to travel trough hostile territories or zones you would never have a purpose to explore just to complete them. This is what questing should be about, a real journey, not killing twenty boars just to collect their ribs.
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Member
Short:
WOTLK feels like you do what your class would logically do without so much going on 'under the hood'. You talent for certain upgrades, learn when to situationally use your powered up specialized tools, and then you do what your class does. Toss magic, stab things, or crush with axe. It's all quite logical and has a slightly loose and non-instructed feel, which is fun.
Cata-onwards feels like "build up charges of X, use Y to use said charges, use Z to proc B, when B procs use your CD to get higher damage on your next 3 uses of Y. And those will proc V to happen, in which case you can use Z for free and they'll stack a debuff on the enemy that makes B stronger."
Long:
WOTLK is 'old' enough, I feel, that it's not in need of pruning the way WoP was. It was Cata and MoP that added to the bloat. The amount of skills in WoD post-prune feels like WOTLK to me. As an added PLUS - each class in WOTLK has less class & spec-related finickiness to them. Many specs change drastically in gameplay due to these changes, and even some classes. The added flashing buttons and such in CATA onwards don't really add much personally, I see right through them and feel they're just flashy visual elements for players to focus their eyes on and react to.
It began to feel like it wasn't enough to just play the character in a regular fun RPG fashion by using specialized abilities/spells at logical moments when you choose to. Rather, the gameplay felt more about playing your rotation-minigame at a certain level of effectiveness. Maybe it made raiding less repetitive and more competitive/challenging for raiders, but I felt it made things boring for me. The mechanics took me out of the character and made me feel disconnected from what was on screen,
Regarding CC, experience in each expansion changes depending on what kind of PVP you're playing. In each expansion, things flow differently in arenas and BGs. Arena is always a pain in the butt imo, just in different ways in each expansion. WOTLK overall can be a little more finicky-feeling because each class is so different and the philosophy behind how 'complex' the combat/cc/etc system is was slightly different back then (disarms are a thing, for example).
WoD is a little more new-age in terms of design, making things more rounded out and 'even'. Each class basically has a heavy dose of Rogue put in -- not a lot of dmg/survivability outside of CDs, CDs counter other CDs, don't pop certain CDs before your enemy, and most specs have some sort of 'ramp up' mechanic (chi, arcane charges, holy power, etc). It began to feel more action-RPG, but personally I don't really find WoW suited to playing like this. The way they tried to make the combat 'involved' is, as I explained earlier, not my cup of tea.
There never felt like 'too much' CC in WOTLK - there's less of it because not every class has equal access to the same sorts of CC. Cata and WoP feel like they gave each class too many tools that other classes had. So all you expect when you encounter ANY class is "I'm gonna get CCed and they're gonna pop CDs to counter my defensive option", when in WOTLK you only feel that for certain classes.
Things are more chaotic in WOTLK. It wasn't designed to be as orderly and controlled as WoD is, because Blizzard was using different design ideas back then. Things were less neat, and that's what makes WOTLK fun imo. It feels more organic and less constrained by Blizzard's more polished and clean design in WoD. Even the changes in Cata helped change the feel and 'looseness' of WoW's gameplay. Picking your specialization in Cata at level 10, versus dinging level 10 in WOTLK, opening your talent trees, and having free reign - both just feel 'different' to each other. And MoP & WoD went further and further.
WOTLK makes WoW feel like a game that at least feels worthwhile to spend time on - it holds a lot of surprises, isn't perfectly evenly balanced because the classes have unique strengths and weaknesses (annoying, but definitely flavourful!), things aren't as easy as they are now in WoD (leveling with a friend 1-80 is actually a challenging journey compared to in WoD where mobs die 2-3x faster it feels).Edited: November 2, 2015
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Member
its because wotlk's pvp was far more balanced in terms of not only a comps required skill, but also in the classes required skill. mechanically classes in wrath were far more complex then they were in cata/mop.And it felt something like this:
Seriously...wotlk pvp seems so outdated and simple it aint even funny....why is it so popular?
alot of that is because of the changes in cata and mop being focused more on streamlining the game to make it easier for newer players.
ive played cata and mop (did more mop on retail though) and i can tell you that if you take out the actual combat mechanic's then all of the expansions including and after cata are great. gearing for pvp in cata/mop/wod is down right amazing. doing the same thing in wrath is terrible...buuut
the actual skill-cap of s8 pvp is MLG/esports Dota2 type were as cata/mop/wod is like the Call of duty. you get what i mean? Fun, but not exactly hard.
i saw that and couldnt tell if troll xD its that absurd. BUT for the sake of being thorough ill explain to the grand people of the world why thats wrong.
s8 (the most popular season on private servers, and one of the longest running of all time on live.) is considered by most to be the best pvp season ever. reasons are simple
Complexity. See when cata came around, they changed alot of things "pruned" ideal's that just wernt cutting it...except they were.
Example would be Frost mages talent "winter's Chill" see in wrath, when ever a frost mage did any sort of frost dmg they'd apply a single stack of winter's chill. the debuff its self is largely useless as its effect doesnt do much. BUT its true power is in the fact it stacks to up 5 times. This gave frost mages the ability to give there CC some sort of temp dispell protection. In cata it, like alot of these type of mechanic's, was removed.
But thats not all, they also slow'd down the actual pace of combat. In wrath, almost every spell caster (mages, locks priest) would to a degree stack haste. frost mages and warlocks in particular. this ment that all casted CC was at or around 1 second cast times. in cata they changed some things about stat priorities, mages for instance stacked crit, some classes stacked mastery and some stacked haste. but the amount of haste people had on average was far lower then it used too be. and this not increased the GCD (meaning the fights were litterally slower in pace) but it made it so that the average poly or fear was about 1.5-1.7 which is far easier to death, interrupt or just plain ol' CC away. They also slow'd the dmg mechanic's forcing every dps class too use burst CDs (which they never had before) to apply any real pressure. Warlocks were very strong in s8, an aff lock applied pressure purely through dotting his targets and lining up his CC with his haunt+sbolts and coils helping him land kills in 2v2 and 3v3. in cata, he was far more reliant on his pet (which has an attack skill that does more dmg on dotted targets) and his Burst CD+Trinkets. without all of these things combined his dmg was what you would call "meh". This is generally true for 80% of the dps specs in cata and 100% in mop.
ive done alot of arena's in my time. alot of em in wrath, alot of em in mop, some in wod and some in cata. the one thing that's remained true through every expansion is that 3v3 is were the true pvp comes into place. if your baseing your EXP off of 2v2 your doing it wrong (this goes out to everyone, not really based on the guy i quoted). Mop 2v2 arena's are ****, its the most imbalanced thing i had ever played. on live the highest 2v2 during s15 was something like 2300-2500. vs 3200 in 3s no one wanted to play it (there was like 2 rogues in the top 100 2s ROGUES man). the only expansion thats good in 2v2 is wrath. as its the only one that allows skill to prevail over all. cata was far too "cookie cutter comp required" and mop was far too CC spammy and "dont let em nerf healing too much" for it to be good.
(on the point of mop, this also makes it one of the worst Private server expansion in terms of PvP. as no one on private servers play 3v3, its the actual opposite of the live servers. 2v2 in mop was "play X Comp for Y class or die" and if you fought some other classes it was GG regardless. so no one played it, they did however play 3s like crazy. thats just not how it works on private servers sadly and you'll forever be stuck in the hell that is mop 2v2. there's also the dmg/defense balancing issues. In Mops season 15, if you wernt in full s15 gear you might as well be a target dummy. because everything was carefully balanced around the stats and passives and such for each class. SO unless every skill is working 100% and you can get the 550 pvp set... things wont play the way they are supposed too.)
there is hope though.
WoD (atleast the 2nd season of it) has so far been fun in 2v2. it felt more like wrath's pvp, far less contrived in its mechanic's.
its like what would happen if Mop and wrath had a baby.
someone said that Blizz never balances the game around PvP and thats not true, WoD is literally just them making a PvP expansion. you can tell, because the pver's complain about not having enough content and the pvpers largely enjoy themselves.Edited: November 2, 2015
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Banned
^
"its because wotlk's pvp was far more balanced in terms of not only a comps required skill, but also in the classes required skill. mechanically classes in wrath were far more complex then they were in cata/mop."
So much balance. 100% arm pen prot warrior 2 shooting you, its balanced for sure. Bias detected , enjoy your ancient game
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The Wise
Yeah versus noob,and in Warmane with BIS donation gear where damage is "#%"#%.
Try AT.Not quite the same.
People dont realise it takes far more skill in Wrath to counter 5 things aat same time ,then in Cata.Also Wrath requires you to be fully aware what is happening next,unlike other expansions.
Pure fact there is no trinket silence on Wrath shows how much game is harder.
Pure fact that game is much faster shows how much faster you got to react to certain things.
One of those facts would be tremor totem being destroyed and you got to reapply it instantly.Unlike Cata etc where you just put it down after being feared.
@Bornaa 82,i dont think you got slighest clue what hard is,so MOP is better beacuse its flashier?Wotlk pvp stoned?Yeah,maybe beacuse you never broke 1800 rating,and you are frustrated by lack of skills.
I dont think you would ever defeat any team as RMP in Wrath simply beacuse by your state of words ,you dont realise what is defensise,offensive and when to retreat and attack.Mop compared is Wrath is like 0 or 1,where as in Wrath is 1,2,3,4.
Simply put like that.
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