WotLK Is Master Shapeshifter/improved mangle worth it. Tanking spec discussion

[MisterBear]

As the title asks I'd like some feedback for this, as i'm nearing the end of my feral tanking spec i'm wondering if it's worth it to dump the 5 point it takes to get that 4% increase for damage from my bear from master shapeshifter or to use the points elsewhere instead

On that note, there's another thing that might be important for feral tanking specs. In that there's the discussion of improved mangle versus swipe in your rotation, some saying improved mangle is not all that essential and that you can just drop it and use the points elsewhere (possibly making getting master shapeshifter more viable for the 4% damage increase since that's 3 points you just free'd up) Which in turn would (hopefully) help you increase your DPS a little as well to help in fights (every little bit counts)

Seeing as we don't really have to worry about talenting infected wounds right now (since it doesn't work on bosses like it should) you can end up with talent tree's looking something like this where your damage is greatly boosted http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0uVkbAczb which i'm now considering to make my final spec as a tank, though i'd like some feedback on this. I have not talented shredding attacks because rage so far has been a complete non-issue in dungeons and raids

If a swipe rotation is not worth it I imagine I could instead move those 3 points from King of the Jungle to improved mangle again and not worry about it until infected wounds might be fixed (in which case I might have to shift around the spec again and probably drop master shapeshifter, unless of course I can drop the expertise talent by then)

What do you guys think? I'm in one of those phases where i'm constantly trying to shift talent points to get the optimal way so some personal feedback from other druids in here would be nice

As for an example of such discussion of Swipe vs improved mangle, I found http://wowthinktank.blogspot.nl/2009...ed-mangle.html which has some numbers and rotations regarding this. I'm not certain if this one is for 3.3.5 though

[Raenel]

Well this depends alot on your gear and threat needs. There is no "one optimal tank spec" for every situation. Let's discuss iMangle vs Master Shapeshifter.

Now there's a few play-style perks involved here too: Bears who use Lacerate as a filler, and bears who use swipe as a filler (and the resulting effect this has on mangles, as a side effect). I won't discuss which of these 2 styles is superior as that's a different story that warrants it's own thread.

However I will say this much: Lacerate bears will prefer iMangle, and Swipe bears will prefer Master Shapeshifter due to how these abilities scales with damage threatwise. You can of course pick up both or neither.

The first question you need to ask yourself is: DO YOU NEED MORE THREAT? if so, HOW MUCH MORE?

So here's the 3 choices it boils down to:
a)Having both MS and iMangle for maximum Threat.
b)Having 1 but not the other
c)Having neither

Remember, at the end of the day "Having Aggro" is literally a "Yes or No" type of deal: If you are top of the aggro table, you've done your job, whether you're in the lead by a measly 0.01% above 2nd place, or if you're 9999x higher than second place, it makes absolutely no difference as long as you can sustain that lead, however small, for the entire fight.

And as a final final note: There is a different between Burst threat and Sustained/Average Threat. And I'll bring in a 3rd talent: Primal Precision 2/2 for +10 Expertise.
Theoretically landing 96/100 attacks with +4% extra damage each is roughly the same as landing100/100 attacks for normal damage > However, what happens if your very first 4 mauls in fight miss, and the next 96 hit in a row afterwards? You'd lose threat at the very start and DPS will fall dead all around you in those first 4-5 seconds.

For Example: My Guild has cleared 11/12 icc25hc and is stuck on LoD progression with our best attempt at 15% LK hp: My current build is
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#0ZEGGscrzceRc0uVkbA0z
Which takes neither MS nor iMangle, skipping the rather great threat increase talents in order to pick up the absolutely abysmal talent Feral Agression that is the only thing that helps me take that 0.0001% less damage from LK. Of course, in guild raids or decent PuGs you will always have a reliable Hunter or Rogue to MD or ToT you, and as such you can get away with fairly low threat. Also with the taunt swapping for Soul Reapers on LK, Tanks end up with way excess threat due to Taunts bugging tank threat into crazy high numbers on Warmane(Which is hopefully a bug they'll fix on Lordaeron)
(Btw i don't recommend using those talents at all, because did i mention that Feral Agression is a total crud talent? This just demonstrates you can easily break the norms depending on your current needs, and that there is no 1 blanket "best" talent tree for everyone.)
I use +10 Expertise even though i have +25 Expertise from gear, just to avoid losing out on burst threat due to parried attacks, and skipped both sources of "Sustained/Average". Also remember that your best source of extra threat is a nice whisper to remind your local Hunter/Rogue to MD/ToT you at the start of every boss fight.