WotLK Frost dk after the new core

[Selaya]

Blood was above frost after RS release. Frost can out dmg blood only on first phase of lk encounter cuz of rime+hb aoe. upload ur irrelevant videos, while u trying to claim that arp capped frost was top spec for single target encounter

just saw that video, explain now: how that 31 expertise and 339 hit rating are relevant to end game lol?

Frost will outdps Blood during p3 of the LK encounter as well.

[verminslayer]

Frost is actually on par with Blood in dps single target terms, Blood has MUCH better burst but frost is pretty constant and increases as the fight goes on.

Short fights blood> frost
Longer fights frost>blood

[taralej]

So in the end it turns out retail players didn't know much about the specs, thus the data showing that Unholy>>>Frost>>>>>>>>>>Blood is just wrong. Realistically looking then, having in mind the information that we have today, it should be Frost>Blood>>>Unholy, but Unholy is usually more preferred than Blood simply because the 13% debuff means more raid-wide DPS and there are usually plenty of BDK tanks for Hysteria already.

And I thought they'd learn in case WotLK held for 2 years.

So, the question remains - which of the three specs would be best in ICC considering all the pros and cons of the new core? This is everything I know about all three specs. Some of these are speculations, others are proven.

= Frost Strike's damage is lower than it should be (does not benefit from 13% debuff, bonus damage does not benefit multipliers)

= Blood Gorged still doesn't work properly (? - still works as Sunder Armor, instead of ArP)

= DRW behaves incorrectly (? - does not benefit from its own diseases)

= Scourge Strike's damage also scales incorrectly (? - shadow part does not benefit from multipliers)

= the gargoyle's scaling from combat stats is incorrect (? - namely, haste)

= the ghoul is just a joke (this one is obvious).

I'd say Unholy is just a big no-no. Blood with BiS gear should be the best choice right now, with Frost following it very close behind, suffering from FS setbacks but still benefiting to the fullest from having everything else in the spec working.

[Lynea]

So in the end it turns out retail players didn't know much about the specs, thus the data showing that Unholy>>>Frost>>>>>>>>>>Blood is just wrong. Realistically looking then, having in mind the information that we have today, it should be Frost>Blood>>>Unholy, but Unholy is usually more preferred than Blood simply because the 13% debuff means more raid-wide DPS and there are usually plenty of BDK tanks for Hysteria already.

And I thought they'd learn in case WotLK held for 2 years.

I'm not sure if you're just naive, or you honestly believe that both simulations and worldoflogs from the time count for absolute nothing. p.s. Plenty of BDK tanks? On retail? HA!

= Blood Gorged still doesn't work properly (? - still works as Sunder Armor, instead of ArP)

Armor ignore and armor penetration are two very different things. If it's working like Sunder Armor or the warrior stance, then it is working as intended.

I'd say Unholy is just a big no-no. Blood with BiS gear should be the best choice right now, with Frost following it very close behind, suffering from FS setbacks but still benefiting to the fullest from having everything else in the spec working.

???
I think ya'll have had way too much time getting used to a broken as f DK specs to play with.

[Beanlord]

If it's working like Sunder Armor or the warrior stance, then it is working as intended.

But it should actually be working by giving 10% arp (140 rating), not like sunder armor (reducing boss armor by 10%). It's a very significant nerf to blood dks. You practically lose 166 strength due to having to gem for the extra arp in order to reach the hard cap of 1400.

Edit: It should work similarly to battle stance (had to log in order to read the tooltip). I think you got the two mixed up.

[jendah]

Armor ignore and armor penetration are two very different things. If it's working like Sunder Armor or the warrior stance, then it is working as intended.

Edit: It should work similarly to battle stance (had to log in order to read the tooltip). I think you got the two mixed up.

+1 @Rifokelt
Sunder Armor = armor ignore.
Battle stance/Blood Gorged should grant armor penetration. (they both work as Sunder Armor atm.)

[trm90]

Really tired of people talking about bdk from their ***, even before the core update bdk was on par with the positively bugged fdk. Yes with the bugged Blood worms,Blood Gorged and the rune priority system. The most challenging classes were warrs(none hop exploiters),hunts and very very few fdks most fdks are **** and ofc they are good ones but the majority just failed their class as simple as that. Some were good tho really good like in Royal Bloodline one in particular was Vaglef who was unique and tops with UH presence. "won't work anymore due to FS fix"

[taralej]

I'm not sure if you're just naive, or you honestly believe that both simulations and worldoflogs from the time count for absolute nothing. p.s. Plenty of BDK tanks? On retail? HA!

No, I'm talking about Warmane, sis.

Armor ignore and armor penetration are two very different things. If it's working like Sunder Armor or the warrior stance, then it is working as intended.

Sunder Armor and the warrior stance are two different things. If it works like Sunder Armor, then it's bugged. By the way, the warrior stance is also bugged, just like Blood Gorged. Either way, the way Blood Gorged is supposed to work is give you 140 ArP, which then brings your ArP hard cap to 1260, instead of 1400.

I think ya'll have had way too much time getting used to a broken as f DK specs to play with.

What do you mean?

[Suprimko]

@Abra, dude, i consideru u the most legit tester there is when it comes to Death Knights in general, i belive in what u say, i just dont understand how can u say that FS is working fine, while u, urself, noticed that the DMG is off in some part. Or u didnt say it... I dont know really, but, I just feel when u talk about all this, u dont care if it works like this or if they fix it. Even if its doin 1% less dmg, its not working properly and they should look into it, that was my point.

@Taralej, also, add up at unholy pros and cons that Wandering Plague is underprocing, which nerfs unholy aoe dmg by a lot. Idk if they fixed it with these latest fix, but on our last raids 26th and 27th march wandering was underprocing by a lot.

@Lynea, good thing u know about main diference on how sunder armor and armor penetration works. Please tell us more... Blood Gorged and Battle stance, as ppl alrdy said, should work as if they wer giving u 140 armor penetration raiting (10%), so, to cap it u need only 1260 (90%) arp raiting from gear. This is why blood should be so strong.

About DKs in general, ul find that Frost is by far best in DMG done without any cooldowns (single target dps). If u take away Dancing Rune Weapon + Hysteria from Blood DK, Gargoyle from Unholy (even with ghoul), ul find that Frost DK, even if it doesnt use the Unbreacable Armor every 1min, will top them on single target easy... In the end, its all about what raid needs tbh. FDKs give 20% haste buff, UHDKs give 13% dmg increase on all targets affected with diseases, also increased dmg of diseases, BDKs give 10% atk power. They will do almost same dps in the end on most fights, so go for the playstile that suits u most, and for what ur raid needs.

About Damage in general, someone try to get close to Stars LK speed kill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO8KFr6oIZ0. I think every class is nerfed in some way by a bit and it should be doin more DMG than they are doing right now. But im not 100% of this, im just talking about our LK atempts we did last weekend. Maybe our raid DPS, and people in guild, suck but still, dmg feels like we are going for World First kill with lame gear, while most of us are on bis list gear.

But yea, after the new core release, DKs need a lot of work if u ask me, but its not like they are unplayable at the moment.

[taralej]

Unplayable - no, but Unholy really feels pretty bad. The ghoul by itself should net around 10-15% of your damage, which with the current ghoul scaling is impossible. This alone puts Unholy very far behind the other two specs. As for Wandering Plague, an easy method to test it is to take results from a pure single-target fight, like Festergut, then sum the procs of both diseases, and then divide them by your crit chance. Let's say you have 500 Frost Fever procs and 500 Blood Plague procs, and you have 40% crit - this means that your Wandering Plague procs should be approximately 40% from that, or 1000*0.4=400.

[Suprimko]

New Screanshots from Lordaeron PTR. This time i got to 5593 atk power without Horn of Winter as u suggested Abra. This gear i have on me is fully Heroic, Gemmed with 20str gems only and has Atk power enchants on every item. So i dont think DK on the youtube video could have reached 5593 atk power without horn of winter cos he was nowhere near full ICC HC gear, atleast on main parts (t10 264 set + belt and boots from 10m icc HC which are also on 264 itlvl).
But even so, my Frost Strike never reached close to 11700 dmg (1:00-1:05 part of the video on youtube). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAus3WCWhCQ

http://imgur.com/a/1WbNm
http://imgur.com/a/vLsKg

[Suprimko]

Unplayable - no, but Unholy really feels pretty bad. The ghoul by itself should net around 10-15% of your damage, which with the current ghoul scaling is impossible. This alone puts Unholy very far behind the other two specs. As for Wandering Plague, an easy method to test it is to take results from a pure single-target fight, like Festergut, then sum the procs of both diseases, and then divide them by your crit chance. Let's say you have 500 Frost Fever procs and 500 Blood Plague procs, and you have 40% crit - this means that your Wandering Plague procs should be approximately 40% from that, or 1000*0.4=400.

I was talking about AOE dmg mostly, i think the part where it should hit ALL enemies within 8 yards is not working. And from what i know it should work for each disease seperatly, 40% for blood plague tick and 40% for frost fever tick. Or am i wrong about that?
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=...-plague-in-pvp
"By visas on 2009/01/03 at 8:35 AM (Patch 3.0.3)
with a 20% crit chance, you have a one in five chance -per disease- for wandering plague to proc every 3 seconds. It doubles your disease damage for that tick (basically a disease crit), and its extra damage that can occur when you arent within melee range of your target.

I'd say it's decent, if you have the points to spare."

[Timetopwn]

@Pwnam3 Wandering plague procs from all dots and hits all targets example if there is 20targets, that's 40 dots, 40 dots which can proc wandering plague, that's 40 wanderings hitting 20 targets total hits= well you do the math.Every wandering plague from every dot should hit every mob, here u only can proc wandering from 1 target at 20 targets u get 1 wandering hitting 20 targets, kappa, #warmane

PS: Wandering plague procs from death knight's crit % at arround 50% crit in raid u should have more wandering hits than dot hits, kappa

[DarkenedHue]

@Pwnam3 Wandering plague procs from all dots and hits all targets example if there is 20targets, that's 40 dots, 40 dots which can proc wandering plague, that's 40 wanderings hitting 20 targets total hits= well you do the math.Every wandering plague from every dot should hit every mob, here u only can proc wandering from 1 target at 20 targets u get 1 wandering hitting 20 targets, kappa, #warmane

No, it has a hidden 3 second ICD that prevents exactly that.

[Timetopwn]

So in the end it turns out retail players didn't know much about the specs, thus the data showing that Unholy>>>Frost>>>>>>>>>>Blood is just wrong. Realistically looking then, having in mind the information that we have today, it should be Frost>Blood>>>Unholy, but Unholy is usually more preferred than Blood simply because the 13% debuff means more raid-wide DPS and there are usually plenty of BDK tanks for Hysteria already.

And I thought they'd learn in case WotLK held for 2 years.

So, the question remains - which of the three specs would be best in ICC considering all the pros and cons of the new core? This is everything I know about all three specs. Some of these are speculations, others are proven.

= Frost Strike's damage is lower than it should be (does not benefit from 13% debuff, bonus damage does not benefit multipliers)

= Blood Gorged still doesn't work properly (? - still works as Sunder Armor, instead of ArP)

= DRW behaves incorrectly (? - does not benefit from its own diseases)

= Scourge Strike's damage also scales incorrectly (? - shadow part does not benefit from multipliers)

= the gargoyle's scaling from combat stats is incorrect (? - namely, haste)

= the ghoul is just a joke (this one is obvious).

I'd say Unholy is just a big no-no. Blood with BiS gear should be the best choice right now, with Frost following it very close behind, suffering from FS setbacks but still benefiting to the fullest from having everything else in the spec working.

^^ You couldn't be more right m8.

But blood cant outdps frost atm , im doing 20k+ in the end of most static bosses in icc(marrow,lady,dbs,fester,rot) , after the core change yes, blood just bursts 30k, and than drops like an apple from a tree to 17k(or i just suck in blood i guess? same like unholy, their burst is higher than Frost i give u that DRW and Hysteria burst is unreal, Gargo now hittin hard in icc, last raid i did couple days ago 1 gargoyle did like 500~K dmg @ saurfang.
But if you know how to burst with frost u might be able to get close to it , and if RNGESUS loves u, if u get those 5 obliterates @begin all crits, sick dmg , now with the glyph and the t10x2 fixed obliterate @full burst hits ~42-45k crit ( without hysteria or tott ) , with hysteria it goes up to 50k+ , if u crit 5 in row that's 250k dmg in like 5seconds, thats sick burst, lets not forget the army,mini ghoul, dots and whites+necrosis and BCB( if u use this spec, and u should now it does big dmg% like 8% for me last i checked) you could easly reach that 30k dps for a short time.
Why frost beats blood, simple as fck, shorter cooldown that gives u tons of str.
Blood is same like arcane mage, if fight is short alot dps, if fight is long = suck