You said that I am the one enforcing this idea, but i'm just asking man. I just want feedback from people. You should not either talk for the comminity but let them express by maybe creating an officila thread about this.
You also say people would leave, but how do you think it is the case?
You dond't even consider the fact that people from other servers might join with this change.
You can't just say things without asking the community, you say not many lokk at the forum but the ones that do are those who care most for the server to be at best probably.
If you are so sure about this (and i'm not saying you are not right), just create an official thread and let people discuss about it, similar to what you did for the Lordaeron realm information: you took into consideration the people who wrote there, not everyone who played after.
Do the same again :)
I don't wanna force an idea that most people don't want to do, let's just see how many are against it, you may be surprised, who knows. Maybe it is the opposite and then i'll figure out that it is not what the comminity wants, but i'll know it instead of wondering :)
You also say i can do that with a guild but you know it is not easy at all, symply because the opportunity t skip is there.
Why you think people who enjoy just the wotlk espansion don't play on retail with character stuck at 80? It is not simply a matter of money. If you give a shortcut to players, they will take it, they'll play by the rules..
Simply ask the community :) I'm curious.
-
Member
-
Moderator
No, I didn't say you are enforcing anything. I said (twice) that your suggestion is about enforcing a style of playing, which it is.
How do I think that's the case? From watching the population changes and the players complains.
No, I don't even consider the fact players would happily leave other servers to play on one that is the same, except for enforcing something they are free to do on their own already. It's a pretty absurd concept.
No, the ones that look at the Forums are the ones that care to look at the Forums, not the ones that "care the most about the server."
So you're saying not only that you don't have the willpower to play like this on your own, but that all other players also don't, so the only way for players to have what they want, but can't do by themselves, is forcing them into it (and who cares about those without a choice if they disagree)?
-
Member
I have made a mistake in saying that the one chacking the forum are the one that care the most, that is not true sorry.
About the willpower of doing this on our own, it is simply not that easy because the real casual players who want this system but don't have time to be in a scheduled guild to raid may not have a clear schedule to keep up with a guild schedule. And you know that it is not this easy, for what i said about retail.
The whole idea behind private servers came for the same reason come on (except vanilla maybe because naxx is a lvl 80 raid, ony too).
People could create guild on live and play tbc. wotlk and so on but they do not do it because it is simply not the same.
In an mmorpg you play with others and are surrounded by others, you can't just "pretend what you is not real", it ruins the fun.
Is sending a message or something like that via chat to look up for this topic impossible (actually asking, no pun intended :) ).
Also you can't just rely on complaints about other topics; in fact from what i can tell no one really had a discussion with staff about this. It is not fair to say that you know the answer because you saw complaints about other topics.
If it is possible I would like to know if you are speaking for the whole staff (in the sense that they all agree with you).
I'm just asking for feedback. that is all, from both player and staff. No need to be on the offensive like that. I've stated my reasons why i think it is a great idea and why people should consider it, i also stated why it is not quite possible to do the same "by choice". Soo i would like to hear from others, that's it.
Thank you for the attention btw, appreciated it :)
-
Moderator
Your argument is contradictory. Why would casuals, who aren't able to follow guild schedules, want a system that, when they could join people to catch up by skipping content, forces them to do everything they don't want? I'd expect casuals to be glad they are able to skip content, so they have an easier time catching up to do the stuff they want. Or are you saying it would be good for them because everyone would be slow? That's a whole different can of worms: why should active players be penalized so casuals aren't left behind?
People play in private servers for a mix of two reasons: playing for free and playing an older expansion. I really don't see the link of that with having to follow some progression system that didn't exist. In fact, doesn't that makes it "simply not the same," to borrow your words, for people who want to play the expansion the way it was, which includes being able to skip content?
No, sending a message to the server wouldn't be impossible, but I don't see the GMs doing it. We don't do that even for actual official things that we want to or are going to do. I don't see in-game messages being done for something I don't see happening, no matter the reactions in the Forums.
I'm not relying on complains about this, but complains players had in general. The lack of RDF (along with the higher rates) made a lot of people move to Icecrown. Players in general don't like to be forced to follow a progression path to "unlock" content, especially when it's something that never existed in the expansion. People who would rather have RDF or who don't even join because of it being deactivated aren't going to decide they want to play because they have additional barriers, and even those who like not having RDF possibly will consider it too much. Even more so when, when you get down to it, it's an unnecessary change that wouldn't make the game more fun, just hold people back from doing what they want.
No, I'm not speaking for the whole Staff, nor is Mercy. But from experience, and I believe Mercy will agree, this is just not the kind of thing we want for our servers. We already did the content release gradually, but that's it. Holding players back by forcing them to go through unnecessary stuff just makes them reconsider joining, which was proven with no RDF. If anything we'd need ways to make the server more attractive to get more players, not more restrictive to keep players who want the freedom to play their own way away. I don't see hope of this even being considered by the Administration.
Lastly, being blunt and stoic isn't being offensive.
-
Member
It's just looks to me you are not even considering what i'm saying (that is what it transpire atleast), Mercy instead seemed to have a more open-minded attitude.
This progression would mean that every kind of player (from casuals to hardcore) stays at the respective level of progression (or progress faster/slower).
In retail you can still play older expansion and progress through content but people chose private servers anyways. Why? It is not about the cost only since retail is more bugfree obviously. It is also because being in an mmo means being in comparison with others, and people want to stay on equal level with everybody.
I don't really see the disabling of rdf being the same as this progression thing. As I have stated the thing most player wants is challenging content and upgrades, feeling rewarded after you've achieved something. This progression will give that, and will give it for a much longer time than the standard version. As you say this system would hold back "what the player wants" only if what it wants is icc, but since player played through these patches and there are still k people i really don't see that is the case. More likely what people want is what i said: different type of content and a progression feel (in the sense of getting purps and gear).
So I really don't see the problem with that since this is what the system gives, but more. What are you exactly thinking when you said "this enforce people to wait for what they want"? What is the thing they want that you're thinking about (to you)?
And it is different from the rdf removal beacause, well, it does not remove anything, the opposite in fact, it adds content.
-
Moderator
Well, I think it's a bad idea that would just drive players away while catering to a small minority, so not sure what you'd expect me to consider past that. I look at it as a player and I see a server I wouldn't join if I was forced to follow a railroad to do content. This suggestion removes something very important - choice to play the way you want and skip what you don't care for - while adding one thing - restrictions on how you can play. When I say this forces people to wait for what they want I mean exactly that - if someone wants to go straight for top content, they have to wait and do stuff they aren't interested in, even when they are fully capable of skipping things, as well as depend on there being enough other people who need the same content to be able to progress. It's interesting, though, how you say I try to talk for all the players, when you talk like you know what they want better than themselves and that they will only realize it if they don't have the choice to do what they want.
-
Member
I'm just talking by evidence, in the sense that people play this server but icc is not out.. why? My point make more sense than the "they wanna go straight for icc" point. Also ofc i mean this as my opinion. i stated a lot of times before :)
Another points that leads me to believe that many people wouldn't mind this is the fact that (as I said) when it has been brought up in the past no one really said something against it and both here in this forum, in the lordaeron thread, in the general discussion thread, i saw people agreeing with the fact that it would do good. I'm talking by experience too.
Again, my opinion, that is why I would like to know more about the players :)
Please explain me why somebody would want to go straight for the endgame content and get bored faster (i'm really asking, I don't understand the point of that). The game would be the same: raids adn dungeons to do, profession to grind.. But it would be longer..
You see it as forced content but then you could see all the game as "forced content": I wanna fo straight for 80 and have the gear to down the lich king in a challenging combat, why can't I? why must i level to 80, grind dungeons a lot, do ToC and then go for icc10? Simply because blizz decided so in 3.3?
Remember that half of the xpac of wotlk was actually progressing through dungeons, than os and naxx, than eoe, than ulduar and hm ulduar.
The fact is i don't really see what does it change except aestetics and big numbers, and this way you have way more content and challenge.
-
Moderator
No, you tell me why people who want to go do whatever they want should be forbidden from doing so because you think you know what's best for them.
And don't try to compare the way the game is with the way you want it to be. It's a game, so obviously it has a certain progression, which is what people expect and want when they go for WoW. You want to include yet another progression barrier on top of what the game naturally already has, to which I say play the way you like and let others play the way they like. If your idea is attractive to others, they can play that way, and if having freedom will keep them from doing it that tells me a lot about what they in fact want. Don't forget we have twinking for those who want to play a specific and limited way, and I don't see them being "tempted" because the game goes up to level 80.
-
Member
Let us not forget that Blizzard actually introduced the catch-up mechanic already in TBC. With the addition of Isle of Quel'Danas, Zul'Aman and the removal of needing to clear Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern in order to enter Black Temple and Mount Hyjal, they removed a lot of the gating that was between being decent geared and starting to raid end game content. It was NOT something unique for Wrath, even though it was more outspoken in this expansion.
People seem to have this romantic idea that Classic was such a good game, because only a select few got to wear full purple gear. I'd take a leap of faith and state, that the people who said that, are the ones who were in good raiding guilds, and got to clear content. For someone who was a good quality player, but started playing at a later point, it was absolute horrible. There was almost zero way of joining a guild as i.e a tank, since even with BIS preraid stuff, you would barely be able to offtank in molten core. Classic was a good game, because it was new and innovative in so many ways, but surely not because it was gated as hardcore as it was - and I did get to raid most endgame content, I still think it was a bad gamedesign though.
As Obnoxious is stating, the majority of people on the forums are hardcore players who has their stuff safe and sound. Of course they wouldn't mind an addition like that, since it wouldn't change much for them. But for average Joe, who may have limited time for raiding it will be a disaster. Not to mention, that while the population is healthy, there's just too few active, raiding, skilled people to implent what you're suggesting. Another thing to note, is that Ulduar is NOT something you clear, unless you know what you're doing. So what would happen would be a bunch of people, who for various reasons isn't good enough to clear Ulduar, will become stuck at just clearing Naxx, and not being able to progress from there. Fine for the hardcore players, but for the average guy it'll severely limit his options on the server.
EDIT: And finally it would make levelling alts to help the guild out in case they need to make changes to a raid setup or roster a complete nightmare
-
Member
Well i guess this sums it up, seems we just can't agree on this one :D
I really appreciate your suggestion though, so thanks anyway :)
And please just stop saying that i want to force content ecc.. I really just wanna hear what people think about this and don't want to make the people wanna play the way I want. I just stated my points why it probably (underline that probably) makes little to no difference this system since the upgrades and the challange is there, but it is the content that is more (don't know how many times i said that).
Also about the "don't try to ecc", this is your version of the game. Version that it does not mean you can't improve with some tweaking if the community agrees/asks so. So saying "the game is what it is" it's a kind of condradictory (and quite sad) statement.
-
Moderator
That's semantics. You are making a suggestion about forcing people to do content in a certain way, and want to hear opinions on your suggestion about forcing people to do content in a certain way. Your whole suggestion, if implemented, would force people to play the way you think they should. And if this would make little to no difference, why take Developer time away from actually working on fixing things that make a difference? It doesn't matters how many times you repeat that "there is more content," it won't magically become true. The content is already there, people do or skip content based on what they want out of the game themselves.
We're an emulation of retail World of Warcraft. We aim to be as close to the real game as possible, and even when we diverge from that it's usually by adding more options, such as transmogrification, not limiting players' choices. We did that with RDF on Lordaeron and the main result was a full Icecrown. Taking away choices inherent to the game from players just isn't something they generally appreciate. How would you feel if twinks suggested that we limit the server to level 19 and that people have to play like that for at least three months before they are allowed to level up further, because people don't know it but they would love to twink and if they have the option to level up to level 80 on their own they won't discover their inner twink?
-
Member
I never meant to praise classic as a game (in fact i don't), i was just saying that i enjoyed the achieve/reward feeling that it gave, and the sense of progression.
Regarding tbc, i know that magister terrace and higher ilvl emblem iten were added but people still did progress through the whole content.
About that alt thing i agree, it would be a mess, but also more hardcore, if that is your thing.
Let me clarify that i would probably be one of the casual you talked about stuck at naxx, but that in my opinion is that how it should be. Also people stuck at naxx translate too people stuck at icc normal when it comes out so i don't see the difference there.
-
Member
If my suggestion gets inplemented it would mean that most people agree, exactly the same way happened with rdf removal.
For the second part i already stated what i think, i mean, the fact that we're talking with "probably someone wont like this" and "if someone disagrees on that" prove how pointless the discussion we're having is.
Just let the community decide, and if the majority of the staff is inclined to try this then let's try.
If not, i'll know that.
The fact that we're at the point of the discussion where we talk about semantics and speculate pointless analogies is hilarious.
I'm asking a question, tell me why you're against it but that's it..
Let the rest talk i guess.
There's no point in continuing our discussion we just disagree.
-
Member
Some really valid points in here by now, I can now see how and why it is such a complicated matter. I do agree on that it might be senseless to enforce this by now, as it's simply too late aswell.
A pretty neat feature however if it was possible, would be to "lock in" your character to such a progression style of play, like an option on the webpage when you create your character. That way you cannot skip content & also only enforce it upon yourself. I do believe that a few guilds would pop up out of this and perhaps it becoming a sort of thing to do, for both new and old players. Perhaps its not doable, I don't know but I find the thought damn cool.
-
Moderator
Wrong. If the suggestion was implemented it would be because the Administration decided so, be it in agreement or not with the community, as happened with RDF, where the majority of vocal people didn't want it disabled, and to this day many are waiting for it to be activated. The decision wouldn't be based on the few people who came comment on a thread in the Forums. Even if they were many posting, well, both RDF is still disabled and point items still gone from the Marketplace, no? The channel for suggestions is open, but the final decision of what direction our servers will take is on the Administration, not the community.
Quote
