Why You Should Play MoP

[taralej]

You know, there was a lot that I wanted to say to your post. But I think at this point you're too busy making an argument that doesn't belong in the topic that is based on purely your (some of which, uninformed) opinions. Opinions that you are trying to argue against other opinions, which is silly. It's great that you have your own opinions on some things, but they are just that - opinions. You need to recognize that your opinions are not objective facts, but are instead very subjective by nature. I'd also advise you to refrain from trying to make personal jabs at people when you run out of arguments. That's how you lose. Quickly. Anyway, I don't feel the need to respond to each of your points because I think Notorious has already done a fine job at providing necessary rebuttal.

Notorious is a ****ing ***** and he doesn't even understand what I'm trying to say. I might bash his head in with the words written on a plank of wood and he still won't get it. The words are right in front of his screen and he cannot comprehend them. Go ahead and penalize me now. He also used plenty of personal jabs, they were just more "politically correct". You know me well enough to know that I'm not the most tolerant of people, Mercy. Especially when it comes to such delusional mouth-breathers like that guy.

Notorious, so if Old Gods were inspired by Lovecraft and were comfortably inserted in the game with meta-plots, deep lore and everything, then that's a bad thing for you, but when April Fools pandas are introduced, with their entire lore requiring far-fetched explanation, then that's perfectly fine for you. You're an *****. Absolute *****. With every single post you only proved this more and more. And I can't really lose an argument if I don't consider the other person equal to me, can I?

To both of you, as long as you keep taking my words as "opinions" (you're reacting just like Obnoxious, Mercy) instead of the word of the mass and don't try to see reason in these words, I have nothing to say to you.

Now go ahead and ban me. This forums is but a shadow of what it was before anyway.

[Mercy]

To both of you, as long as you keep taking my words as "opinions" (you're reacting just like Obnoxious, Mercy) instead of the word of the mass and don't try to see reason in these words, I have nothing to say to you.

But it is an opinion. Just because you believe a large amount of people would agree with you doesn't make it anything more than just an opinion.

Now go ahead and ban me. This forums is but a shadow of what it was before anyway.

eh?

[dOgwarlock]

I have a hunter that has been gathering dust for like 1 year an a half. Can you recommend me a decent ally PvP guild that does active arenas and bgs/rated bgs? It's so hard to pug arenas on fw since I have no friends here. I am 2.2k rated on retail mop hunter and would like to play it again just for nostalgia.

[Kite009]

To both of you, as long as you keep taking my words as "opinions" (you're reacting just like Obnoxious, Mercy) instead of the word of the mass and don't try to see reason in these words, I have nothing to say to you.

You're neither a leader nor a representative of the "mass" to have that privilege. Ofcourse, this extends to everybody here on the forums as well. One big difference between you and Notorious is that while you claim that your arguments are not opinions, but "word of the mass", Notorious wrote this on the opening post itself :

Hello All,

I'm here to promote Frostwolf and MoP in general! I'm obviously going to be biased since I love MoP, but I will try to be as balanced as I can presenting both the good parts and bad parts of MoP. For background, I've played WoW since vanilla, having played vanilla-cata on various private servers, MoP and some WoD on retail. As you can imagine, having played WoW private servers since the very first years, I have a lot of patience in dealing with bugs. You may be different, and that is fine. I will explain how well Frostwolf is working and you can decide for yourself if its worth trying.

From my experience, hate & disinterest spreads and influences much quicker than interest. WotLK had all the praises as the epitome of WoW, but I only tried it after playing Cataclysm for quite a while in the then Molten. On the other hand, I've never played WoD and yet I have to admit that I won't even try it simply from all the bad rep it gets from many players. Not unless someone I personally trust says so.

Thirdly, you have now resorted to raging and abuses, which nullifies your already low credibility.

I have a hunter that has been gathering dust for like 1 year an a half. Can you recommend me a decent ally PvP guild that does active arenas and bgs/rated bgs? It's so hard to pug arenas on fw since I have no friends here. I am 2.2k rated on retail mop hunter and would like to play it again just for nostalgia.

Hm, on Alliance, there's Verbally Violent, ReluctancE, <U DOGS WE CAESAR MILAN> (don't know how active this one is). There's another guild named BONE DESTRUCTION which you can inquire about. For horde, there's Myriad and Devastation. Suffice to say, you can pop in-game and ask in global or visit the duel area for a guild that fits your requirements, but the main ones are those I mentioned above. Good luck!

PS : I'd recommend Verbally Violent for Alliance and Myriad for Horde, but this is just my opinion.
Also, the Frostwolf discord is quite helpful for any questions you have, for looking for arena partners or doing 3s, so I'd suggest joining it as well. You can find the discord link in the Frostwolf sub-forum (sticky, thanks to Mercy).

[Skoobydoo]

Hello All,

I'm here to promote Frostwolf and MoP in general! I'm obviously going to be biased since I love MoP, but I will try to be as balanced as I can presenting both the good parts and bad parts of MoP. For background, I've played WoW since vanilla, having played vanilla-cata on various private servers, MoP and some WoD on retail. As you can imagine, having played WoW private servers since the very first years, I have a lot of patience in dealing with bugs. You may be different, and that is fine. I will explain how well Frostwolf is working and you can decide for yourself if its worth trying.

Why you should consider MoP:
The pros of MoP in general are many. I will list the most important (imo) below.

1. MoP PvE is generally considered to have been amazing. Raids have many mechanics and were considered the best part of this expansion by many players. The raids were also pretty challenging and fun. I'm not a PvE player, so I can really only go by word of mouth. I mostly PvP'd on retail, and also mostly PvP on Frostwolf.

2. MoP PvP is excellent. Now this is just an opinion, but I enjoy the way most classes play out in MoP. Every class has a myriad of options on what they can do as it was the expansion with the highest number of abilities in the game. Furthermore, PvE gear is virtually useless in instanced PvP. The only gear that any serious PvP'er will use is Prideful gear (ilvl 550), because any item that is not Prideful will be downscaled to ilvl 540. This means no Shadowmournes, no Gurthalaks, no Vial of the Shadows, none of that garbage. It is your skill vs. the enemies skill and whether you raid for your gear does not matter.

3. Arenas. Arenas in MoP do not require teams. This cannot be emphasized enough. MoP allows players the flexibility of doing arenas whenever they feel like it, with whichever composition they like. Want to try something crazy like HLS (hunter/lock/shaman), but you got to 2k playing KFC (hunter/warrior/healer)? Well, now you just play with your new partners rather than leave a possibly high rank team.

4. Rated BGs. Expansions before Cataclysm did not have Rated BGs. For those that do not know what these are, Rated BGs are essentially a 10v10 battleground with arena rules (no flasks, potions, heroism, etc.). Rated BGs have their own rating system, giving titles and mounts as rewards unique to this bracket. This is my biggest gripe with WotLK. Once you are in a PvP guild and BIS, most of your game-time revolves around deleting low geared players in Random BGs or doing arenas with the same people over and over again. Rated BGs allow you to challenge other guilds and do competitive BGs!

5. Pandaria. Now I know many people hate Pandaria as a continent and its lore. That's fine, each to his own. I do feel the zones have a lot going on, and there is more to do in the world itself compared to Cataclysm. This is of course at a peak with Timeless Isle and pet battles.

6. Talents. I'm sure this will trigger a lot of people, since the talent tree is one of the things people hated the most about MoP. However I feel the talents in MoP were a step in the right direction. Before MoP, every experienced WoW player knew the exact build they would need to play optimally. This was specially true in PvP since you couldn't swap talents based on the team you were playing against. As a result, we had cookie-cutter builds that we would all find online in some guide, and then use it for the rest of our gaming life. In MoP however, if you do not swap talents based on the team you are against, you may as well be stuck at 1500 mmr.

What sucks about MoP:
There are a fewthings that suck about MoP, and I feel if I don't mention them, people won't take my post seriously. So here they are:

1. Gear difference in PvP. Gear has always been an issue in PvP in WoW. From Vanilla where tier 3 was ridiculous in PvP, to WotLK where Shadowmourne plagues almost all private servers, to MoP where the difference between Grevious and Prideful is quite ridiculous. HOWEVER, MoP also introduced the Conquest Catch Up system allowing new players a larger conquest points cap to get catch-up faster.

2. Post-Cata Azeroth. Unforunately, Azeroth in MoP is still devastated just like in Cataclysm, with flying enabled. I personally think adding flying to the game at all was a huge mistake, and sadly MoP continues the trend. However, this is just part of life after Cataclysm, so there is nothing to be done here. If this is truly a deal breaker for you, then I suppose you can only really play up to WotLK as that is the last expansion in which Azeroth does not have flying.

3. More Effective Health. In PvP the stat that is most relevant is called "Effective Health". Effective Health is essentially you're health, multiplied by damage reduction auras such as resilience, armor, etc. In MoP Effective Health is HIGH. Very high. Players simply cannot be one shot, ever. Even a naked character has close to 300k HP, and there is nothing that can hit 300k in PvP. For example, even a Chaos Bolt with everything (flasks/potions included) maxes out at about 280k. For comparison sake, Judgement in WotLK can easily hit 15k without potions, which is generally the HP of a naked character. What this means is that healers are very strong in MoP, and fights in general take very long. If you are someone that values BGs with 50 Killing Blows, or someone who wants very fast arena games (specially in 3v3), you may not enjoy the expansion. Some double DPS comps are great in 2v2 and can have fast games, but generally, healer/dps comps are superior in 2v2. Personally I enjoy the slower gameplay, but many players have told me they don't like it, so I put it here.

1. MoP PvE is generally considered to have been amazing : thats your own opinion.i personally hated raiding in MOP.also the fact you do the same raid on LFR/FLEX/NORMAL/HC turn people off PVE so much.majority of players have done some LFR and flex and then stop giving a **** about it because its all the same raid with same bosses.also raids was not as challenging as you think.also SOO was not that challenging as you want to make it look.took only around 10 days for garrosh to go down and that was in prenerfed version of hte raid with lowee ilv.current 5.4.8 patch the gear is boosted to 588 and the raid is nerfed as can be.people was farming it on HC with pug groups back on retail.

2. MoP PvP is excellent: thts your own opinion.i cant stand PVP in MOP.its all about CC setups and burst in CC chains( that can be forever long lots of times over 1 min in 3s).the games itself become scripted and for me way boring. you are right PVE Gear was uselesss in PVP....what that mean is the community completely split and PVP players never ever touch any PVE content at all since there was nothing there for them.but i guess some people love this i personally dont.
MOP pvp for me personally was so boring i quit retail and moved back to frostwolf on molten one of the current Cata molten realms.

3. Arenas. Arenas in MoP do not require teams.: this was good change it make people explore more comps and overall it was one of the few good things in MOP.

4. Rated BGs. RBGs was pretty much the same as it was in cataclysm.on retail almost no one cares about them and people use them for fast CP cap and thats it.back when molten released MOP there was pretty active RBG community because there was high pop.i think my guild at the time had atleast x2 group for RBG with near 2k rating on both.problem was people simple stop queue after they lose because they got stomped most of the time.on current FW i will be shocked if there is more then 2-3 RBG groups that play aka...thats not even part of the game anymore on warmane.

5. Pandaria.: aaa yes lots is going on....non of it have anything to do with WOW we love and know.also stop comparing it with cata compare it with WOTLK and TBC zones and story :D you will see how much MOP is lacking in every aspect.

6. Talents.: no thats completely wrong.exactly MOP if the expansion where there was no personality at all in talents.after very short time was clear what is best setup of talents and sure you can swap something vs some comps but everyone can learn when what is best just by reading any guild,that apply for both PVP and PVE.in MOP there was no personality at all in talents and builds everyone run the same.
on other hand in WOTLK there was many different specs specs that was equally good.just go check any class guide you will see there is multyple specs for almost every class in WOTLK or TBC,and different guides give different specs alot of the time.this is not how MOP work at all tho :D o and if you stuck at 1500 MMR in literally any expansion you are simple bad player,that have nothing to do with your build.

good parts in MOP for me are : ,AOE loot,fast leveling( i personally like it,1-90 was like 2-3 days of leveling)
Monk class ( monks are awesome class i play my until this very day even in legion tho its not my main)
removing arena teams,CP catch up system was pretty good aswell,but lets be honest it make the game super casual.
most classes overall was more enjoyable to play.the spells animation,the mobility and helfheal make me wanna play my class just for the combat itself.
Pet battles was fun i cant lie.i love them.
i probably miss something but overall thats all i liked in this expansion.

What sucks about MoP:

1. Gear difference in PvP. : just as you said this aspect didnt exist in MOP since the catch up system.

2. Post-Cata Azeroth.: since MOP and until today in Legion old zones dont exist anymore.they are completely empty since everyone level with RDf or arena/bgs almost no one is doing quests anymore.pre or post cata zones really dont meter you never go there anyway.
actually there was 1 time you go there that was at the end of WOD for invasions.

3. More Effective Health.: to put it simple healers are insanely overpowered and they dont die unless very late dampening.i have no idea what is current state on frostwold because i havent play there for long time + class bugs can change the balance,but on retail x2 dps comps are no go.if you want rating in 2s you have to go heal+ dps or you dont really have chance for anything.dunno how many of you have watched the 42-0 competitions that PVP streamers was doing back in MOP but to do so they had to go like 1k MMR and then try to do the 42-0 challenge.and everytime someone snipe them as heal+ dps they got completely destroyed.and thats 3k rating players not noobs.
as for heal+dps vs heal+dps its all about dampening.1 dps can stay afk dont meter untill at least 50%+ dampening he will not die nor his healer.i remember having games to 80+% dampening before someone die....the skill level of this games is really low.
same apply for 3s aswell its all about dampening comps or some scripted CC chain burst setup.its so boring.

there is tons of other problems with MOP like...the dailys that are literally almost all you do. 5 man hcs are like not existing anymore any tank class can solo them.world bosses start as good idea end up as zerg fest where dont meter what you do the boss will die anyway.the legendary where every single person can get it....whats so legendary about ti just takes you few weeks and there you go... you get it yess.the PVE gear been way stronger in WPVP thats another bul**** that happen in MOP and was the start of the end for WPVP.atm in legion Wpvp dont exist anymore.scenarios was fun to do 2-3 times but pointless aside of capping your points.and the list go on and on.

[RagnarTheGreat]

Trying to be peacemaker here but as a veteran player and unarguably a lore-whore, Taralej does have some merit to his words, although the methods in which he convey's them and his scorn for this expansion mildly surprised me.

This is my personal opinion but I agree that Pandas(In the way players were expecting and the way they were presented) do not belong in the game. The game is called WARcraft for an apt reason and as I first witnessed a Pandaren while questing as the might Rexxar I had judged him a fierce warrior, skilled with his weapon, a hint of elemental magic and a fondness for Alcohol(Very much like the Dwarves). And yet what we got in the game was a Gandhi+Dalai Lama hybrid and arbitrary and rather boring dialogues of peace and farmers instead of deceptively mighty Pandaren that the players at the time believed would present as. THEY EVEN MADE THE PLAYERS START FARMING!!! Adding to the fact the new races the Mogu(Chinese empire ripoff) the Hozen and their Monkey King(Again a chinese ripoff), the Serpents spine(you get the theme) and the godawful Chinese music in the most popular zones makes you feel like vomiting as so much Chinese culture is forced down your throat. There is a reason Silithus is the most hated zone in World of Warcraft but eh Blizzard managed to top it by introducing Dread Wastes and the Klaxxi. Now that we have such rich new races, plethora of culture and a cartoonish new class, what do we fight as the end game boss ? Not the Thunder King, not the Sha, not the Grand Empress and neither the heart of Yshaarj. No, we fight an Orc... And other Orcs and more orcs and some goblins.... In Orgrimmar. Like someone pointed out before me, it made as much sense as fighting Thomas the Train Engine in the Deeprun Tram. I've followed the Warcraft lore and I am used to the retcons and switches but this was bat**** insane even by those standards. And I can see how it would be downright offensive to some people who are deeply engrossed in the Lore aspect as I am.

As for the gameplay itself, yes the PvP is slow, yes the Raids make little sense and yes I mute the music in Pandaria while i Blare it out in Stormwind or Elwynn and of course the Pandas turned out to be more of a Joke but if some people prefer it that way then why would try to convince others to back down from the prospect of giving it a try ? After all that is the only thing Notorius is suggesting is to give it a try. You dont have to like it and you dont have to stay but would giving it a try really hurt you or others who would want to ? It might be an expansion for noobs and noobs would flock to it and play it and i dont see it as anything other than a win-win scenario for everyone involved. The noobs get a noob expansion to play in which would keep them away from the 'Hardcore' expansions and the "pro's" with fingerspeed would have WotLK and TBC or whatever you consider harcore all to yourself. Hell, if you are bored you can come over for a visit and curbstomp the Noobs in a BG or 2 or get the still unclaimed Heroic Garrosh and show dem noobs how hardcore raidin is done dammit !

[Jakkre]

The problem about MoP is not the expansion itself but the fact that its harder to script than the older xpacs.
Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk private servers are very close to how the Blizz servers were back then but MoP is a buggy mess compared to that.
If Warmane were able to develop a MoP realm with the quality of TBC or Wotlk then I'm sure that many ppl would play on it. Maybe not as popular as Wotlk but enough ppl to fill a realm with +10k players.

[romz]

The problem about MoP is not the expansion itself but the fact that its harder to script than the older xpacs.
Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk private servers are very close to how the Blizz servers were back then but MoP is a buggy mess compared to that.
If Warmane were able to develop a MoP realm with the quality of TBC or Wotlk then I'm sure that many ppl would play on it. Maybe not as popular as Wotlk but enough ppl to fill a realm with +10k players.

Keep in mind, MoP never had as much work as TBC/Vanilla/WotLK as those expansions have been out a lot longer, so people have been able to make them close to blizzlike as possible.

[Skoobydoo]

The problem about MoP is not the expansion itself but the fact that its harder to script than the older xpacs.
Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk private servers are very close to how the Blizz servers were back then but MoP is a buggy mess compared to that.
If Warmane were able to develop a MoP realm with the quality of TBC or Wotlk then I'm sure that many ppl would play on it. Maybe not as popular as Wotlk but enough ppl to fill a realm with +10k players.

if the expansion itself it not the problem explain why wow sub count on retail drop to 7mil in MOP?maybe blizzard failed to script their own expansion.
back in the day when molten still existed and their WOTLK realms was really bugged and not much was working people still played it and ever since the POP have only got bigger.opening fresh MOP realm and geting 10k pop on it? i call this fantasy.

[Jakkre]

back in the day when molten still existed and their WOTLK realms was really bugged and not much was working people still played it and ever since the POP have only got bigger.opening fresh MOP realm and geting 10k pop on it? i call this fantasy.

Back in the days we had two MoP realms with +3k players on each.

When Lordaeron was released with its new core we also had 10k ppl playing on it even though we already had two older wotlk realms.
If they would release a new MoP realm with equal quality like Lordaeron then yeah, chances are high that it would have a +10k population.

Nevertheless I consider TBC and Wotlk as the better Xpacs.

[Skoobydoo]

Back in the days we had two MoP realms with +3k players on each.

When Lordaeron was released with its new core we also had 10k ppl playing on it even though we already had two older wotlk realms.
If they would release a new MoP realm with equal quality like Lordaeron then yeah, chances are high that it would have a +10k population.

Nevertheless I consider TBC and Wotlk as the better Xpacs.

when i say back in the days i mean around 2010 when there was only WOTLK realms and they was bugged as ****.before ulduar was even existing then slowly releasing really bugged ulduar togc and finally ICC 1 boss at the time.took them crazy long time till they release LK.and all this time there was 3 WOTLK realms,up to 4 at some point as far as i remember, up and running with pretty stable and good population .lordearon release and his new core with 10k+ pop come many years later.

yes MOP had some good pop at the start but not much time pass until the hype die and so the realms.Cataclysm did infinity better in this aspect.on release cataclysm realms was almost unplayable nothing was working but they did well for so many years keeping 3 realms with stable population.
if they release perfectly scripted MOP realm i think it wont be more then 2-3k pop.people simple hate this expansion and dont want to play it no meter how you guys try to make it look as good expansion , its not.i have never seen anyone who have played WOTLK,CATA on retail and say MOP was good.the only people who claim they love it are people who start in MOP and compare it to WOD.or people who are bad in PVP and because MOP was so much more mistake forgiven then other expansion,can finally get some rating.

[Jakkre]

yes MOP had some good pop at the start but not much time pass until the hype die and so the realms.

Because it was and is a buggy mess.
Private servers aren't able yet to provide a MoP realm that is any close to its retail version.

if they release perfectly scripted MOP realm i think it wont be more then 2-3k pop

I highly doubt that.
MoP might not be the most popular xpac but still popular enough to fill a realm with +10k.
Taste differs u know.

[-Notorious-]

Notorious, so if Old Gods were inspired by Lovecraft and were comfortably inserted in the game with meta-plots, deep lore and everything, then that's a bad thing for you, but when April Fools pandas are introduced, with their entire lore requiring far-fetched explanation, then that's perfectly fine for you.

I have no issues with Old Gods (I actually loved their intro to WoW lore), and I also have no issues with Pandaren. Heck, even though I find the idea that Titans were actually planets pretty stupid, I still don't take that much an issue with it, because it is Blizzard's game and they decide what they want the lore to be.

You on the other hand take an issue with Pandaren being in the game, not because you find them unattractive or whatever, but because you said (and I quote):

I will not play an expansion which has almost nothing to do with the lore and goes completely out of the way to push Asian marketing to players.

The point I have been making (I thought I was very clear) is that nothing in WoW has anything to do with the "lore". C'thun and Yogg'saron did not exist before WoW. Old Gods did not exist. Titans did not exist. So either you accept that all of those (Pandaren included) have to do with the lore, or none of them do. You cannot cherry pick and say Old Gods were part of the lore but Pandaren were not, when Pandaren were in the lore before the Old Gods.

I hope that makes sense, I really shouldn't have needed 4 posts to explain this in 4 different ways, but I understand it can be a tough point to understand for some.

Especially when it comes to such delusional mouth-breathers like that guy.

Now go ahead and ban me. This forums is but a shadow of what it was before anyway.

I doubt you could possibly get banned for such weak insults. This is the internet, even I can come up with better insults, and apparently I'm the politically correct one :| Mouth-breather? Like seriously, what is this, some middle school argument? Jeez...

Your Post

Sorry I snipped your post, its only for readability :|

I wasn't in some hardcore mythic raiding guild at my time on retail, but literally EVERYONE I have spoken to loved SoO. I personally did not like Garrosh being the main villain, but the mechanics of the raid are an improvement over anything WotLK had, that much is for sure. As for difficulty, I think its fine. I don't see it as a negative that Garrosh was down in 10 days. It means Blizzard learned from their mistake of releasing literally unkillable bosses (hello C'thun and M'uru at launch?). There's nothing fun in banging your heads against a table only to later find out that a boss (M'uru in this case) was mathematically impossible. Anyways, Garrosh hasn't been killed on Frostwolf yet (in hc) and I haven't actively raided on Frostwolf for quite a while anyways, so I don't know how "hard" he is. I can tell you though that the fight is far more fun than LK (this is, of course an opinion).

It's fine if you don't like the PvP on MoP. When Legion launched, a significant portion of the retail gladiator community came to private servers looking for servers to play. They had the choice of Blackrock, but they chose an MoP server (which is VERY poorly scripted, mind you) over Blackrock. I'll let you ponder why that would be the case. We had some of these gladiators come to FW too, but sadly they left because of the gear difference (no conquest cap at the time).

I think people care quite a lot more about Rated BGs than you think they do. You should check out arenajunkies to see just how much they are discussed. They are very similar to Cataclysm, but sadly our Cata realm is even more dead, so if anyone wants to do Rated BGs you only have 1 option on Warmane right now.

Re: talents, that's a strong no. No-one will change their talents, ever, after being BiS. Not for PvP, not for PvE. On MoP you change talents almost non-stop, with each boss fight having a different talent needed. In PvP, on my boomie, I two different playstyles, and that requires changing some key talents (incarnation vs FoN being one of them).

Re: dampening. Dampening can never reach 80%. Games are given as a draw before that. Furthermore, your idea that a DPS can stay afk until 50% dampening and stay alive are quite... revealing. How many arena games have you played in MoP? I assure you, no-one can survive being afk in any format with even 0% dampening. You just mentioned how easy it is to CC a healer. If you stand there while your healer is afk, you will die. This isn't some exaggeration, I'm being honest, you will die. You then follow that up by mentioning how the game takes no skill, but it requires "some scripted CC chain burst setup". I don't think you understand the amount of planning needed to:
a) Ensure you have all your necessary offensive cooldowns along with your partner
b) You have all your CC off cooldown
c) You have no DRs on your CC

Apparently planning all of this out takes less skill in a 3v3 game than landing a scatter shot on the healer and deleting a person in 2 globals. Take it from someone who has quite a lot of experience in arenas on both WotLK and MoP, MoP arenas are much harder.

PvE gear being better in WPvP was a misstep, but honestly, its no different than any other expansion where PvE gear was better in Arenas and BGs as well. I'll take ****ty WPvP if my Arenas and BGs are untouched, tyvm.

This is my personal opinion but I agree that Pandas(In the way players were expecting and the way they were presented) do not belong in the game. The game is called WARcraft for an apt reason and as I first witnessed a Pandaren while questing as the might Rexxar I had judged him a fierce warrior, skilled with his weapon, a hint of elemental magic and a fondness for Alcohol(Very much like the Dwarves). And yet what we got in the game was a Gandhi+Dalai Lama hybrid and arbitrary and rather boring dialogues of peace and farmers instead of deceptively mighty Pandaren that the players at the time believed would present as.

Everything I've said up until now regarding Pandaren is that we do not decide what belongs in the game and what doesn't. Either we are fine with Blizzard ripping lore out of other places, or we aren't. Regarding Pandaren being a "fierce warrior" one of the quotes from Chen in WC3 is "Welcome to the Pandamonium". Does that sound fierce to you in any way? That quote sums up Pandaren perfectly as an easy-going joking race. The Pandaren in MoP are pretty much exactly what I'd expect from seeing Chen in WC3. They drink a lot, they make ****ty jokes, and they're fat.

It might be an expansion for noobs and noobs would flock to it and play it and i dont see it as anything other than a win-win scenario for everyone involved. The noobs get a noob expansion to play in which would keep them away from the 'Hardcore' expansions and the "pro's" with fingerspeed would have WotLK and TBC or whatever you consider harcore all to yourself. Hell, if you are bored you can come over for a visit and curbstomp the Noobs in a BG or 2 or get the still unclaimed Heroic Garrosh and show dem noobs how hardcore raidin is done dammit !

You need more "fingerspeed" in MoP as GCDs are shorter so you put out more spells/abilities.

Because it was and is a buggy mess.

It has taken a long time to get here, but I wouldn't call FW a buggy mess anymore. It's nowhere near perfect, and it is obviously much harder to script than WotLK/TBC, but atleast on the PvP front, things are going really well. I've also heard from new levelers that the questing experience isn't too bad, but last time I leveled a character was about a year ago (I think...).

Edit: I forgot to mention this earlier, but someone mentioned how being out of position can never be punished in MoP.
Here is a quick clip for you lot to reconsider your knowledge of MoP 3v3:
https://youtu.be/TPP9qyqyZew?t=1h6m43s

Monk, the class with the highest mobility in the game, makes the mistake of stepping outside of los of his healer. He is immediately punished by being deleted, by a comp which doesn't even work by bursting players.
I don't expect to be told that Venruki is a noob by anyone here (I hope).

Mistakes are just as punished on MoP as they are on any other expansion.

[RagnarTheGreat]

Does that sound fierce to you in any way? That quote sums up Pandaren perfectly as an easy-going joking race. The Pandaren in MoP are pretty much exactly what I'd expect from seeing Chen in WC3. They drink a lot, they make ****ty jokes, and they're fat.

Eh just because a race has a plebeian sense of humor does not mean they are any less ferocious. You kinda cherry picked there as my intention was not about a single pandaren but the Pandaren as a whole race wherein Chen was a shamanistic drunken brawler while MoP presented them too centered on emotions and peace.

You need more "fingerspeed" in MoP as GCDs are shorter so you put out more spells/abilities.

You completely missed the sarcasm there.

[taralej]

He's been cherry picking and taking words out of context since the launch of this thread. At least I'm glad more people cared to explain things in a milder tone. Maybe in 1-2 months he will start getting the picture.