You miss an important point. Both sides may have BiS geared toons a plenty but Alliance has far more of them in the PvP areas and also more in general. I am personally full BiS and I still have a bad time because of this, so not only 2k scorers are suffering.
True balance will never be achived and we all know that. However, one can tip the scales a bit more in the Horde's favor by adding bonuses or tweaking things. That is all I am saying.
No but it is one of the most major things and one cannot deny that. For years Icecrown has been notorious for its bad BG reputation in terms of playing Horde.
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Member
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Member
just join a premade Lol!
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Banned
q solo alliance = suffer and lose a lot
q solo horde = suffer and lost a lot but also have a self righteous feeling based around "human racial op!" and cry about balance on forum
q premade alliance = win
q premade horde = win
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Member
All your mates are BiS geared? Alliance has not more PvP BiS geared players, it is just your point of view. Join only BG with a BiS geared premade, as many alliance players do so, and you will face way more less geared alliance players.
What is the point of a bonus? No one need gear. Only those who still think that gearing up a 2k GS toon with BGs is a enjoyable thing. The only thing you get with that bonus, are way more horde joining BG with crap gear to fake boost GS for ICC PUGs.
And that is the original blizzlike feeling, nothing else. But Anyway, it is only your PoV, i play here since the early days of Molten as alliance and horde. My personal overall BG winrating is somewhere 50% queing Solo, for both horde and alliance. Playing with bad gear I lost more BGs and playing with good gear, being able to be a key player myself, i won even more games. Joining BGs with a couple of friends, it is most likely a win, playing horde atm.
Nothing changed since vanilla, BGs are full of *****s wasting more time on flaming each other than playing. Many give up within the first minute and teamplay outside a premade is most likely not happening. People want PvP fun, fighting each other and not staying at a important BG point. Thats why they give a damn about bg goals and go camping graveyard.
You will know what i mean if you ever take part in a premade, that placed you to def farm/stable far far away from any enemy while your team farming honor at spawn graveyard.
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Member
Fixed that for you buddy. =)
There is so much data on this matter contradicting this ten times over, it is a pure fact that Alliance has more bloody BiS geared players interested in PvP and Horde way more BiS players interested in PvE.
Words of a true Alliance player. The Horde side needs more gear and the point of the bloody bonus is to make PvP gear easier to obtain on the Horde side, they won't be used in the bloody ICC pugs for no RL with more than 1 brain cell active will not allow them in and if they do it's their problem.
Join the club, I am also with this project since long before the Moltdown. So quit your hollow self promoting bravado for a change and wake up, the horde side needs assistance and if you are so bloody good then what in the world is the problem here? You afraid people will start to beat you up if they get access to a bit more gear?
I take part in a premade everytime I play on Icecrown Horde side and that still barely holds the table up. A lot of **** has changed since vanilla, primarily the value of gear. In vanilla you had quite high base damage/healing numbers and CC lasted longer, so while a less geared player was weaker, they were not USELESS. In TBC this was made far worse and in Wotlk even more so, and since you neglect to even mention this just shows how bloody clueless you are you little wrath baby.
Edit: PS, enjoy your EMFH and adios.Edited: May 23, 2018
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Member
Than provide us with all the data....
Playing Horde with only player who are or nearly BiS geared. So its again only about you who wants to gear up your 2k gs toon.
pushing GS with pvp gear is a very common concept here on wareman. Doenst matter if a RL accept them with PvP gear or not, the noobs gearing up in BGs still believe in it.
Playing horde atm and winning around 50% or more BGs overall. I see enough bgs with geared horde players to win. What does you think, will all this new people gearing up realy stay with pvp after they geared up? Probably not, but you can still believing.
You are probably not even old enough, that you ever played vanilla on retail. If you ever played vanilla, you would now how easy it was to oneshot everything without proper gear with a geared toon. T2 or T2,5 cloth were around 3k HP, a full "pvp" geared rogue was able to pull out 5k+ dmg with two buttons, without being limited by gcd.
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Member
How much of it? It spawns several sets of pages.
I got no non-BiS toons and I have never had any since the Moltdown, another argument fell flat.
Then that's the problem but the fact is participation does take place.
Ofc. Atm. As in "I want inside 2 BGs and so it is 50%, now I go back on my ally toon"? Id say, spend less time doing stunts like that and work on your spelling instead.
On the contrary, I am soon too old. I played vanilla and the whole one-shot-everything-you-see story is quite inaccurate. It is true that long CCs and certain combos like Trinket+AP+PP could dish out high damage or control but the enemy could turn the tables aswell. In Wotlk you won't beat certain classes even if they AFK if you sit in fresh 80 green gear. In vanilla that was more than doable, hell some even kicked other's asses in the nude.
3k HP in full T2, T2,5 is pure BS and I guess you never learnt basic math. The 4k range is more like it with certain classes going up in the 5-6k range.
Rogues hardly ever wore PvP gear as it was inferior to the PvE gear and only ever did so if they could not raid or had 6/8 T3.
A rogue in full BiS will barely pull of 5k with two buttons if they get time to do it, but they don't.
If there is anything close to being messed up in vanilla that is similar to Wotlk it would be Reckbombers.
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Member
So we played on a whole different skill level then. But yeah stay on glorifying the past.
Got your numbers from a custom vanilla server?
You know the difference between PvP gear and "PvP" gear? Still my T3 level rogue who got nearly every item BiS for PvP, was able to pull about 5k dmg with two buttons within less than 1 second.
Whats your counter against ambush + backstab coming as fast as a player can press two buttons? Vanilla Rogues were not limited to gcd, what you should have known.
Thats all? Vanilla was full of messed up things.... Hunter ice traps that got you for 60sec, paladin that were able to oneshop people or raid boss ... tons of gamebreaking items that could change a whole 1vs1.
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Banned
my experience is opposite, bis and 1st place in every bg i enter doing objectives supporting ppl etc still lose more than i win when i queue solo. Go on horde same ****. Meanwhile on pm on either side ez wins.
Maybe you're just only joining fresh 80/pve geared pms? I can't think of any other explanation why you are only winning 37% of the time in your pms on horde except your groups are trash.
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Member
I am not saying the past was a dance on roses, for it sure had its downsides. The reason people believe vanilla was a one shot fest was because such specs were easy to play and was often adviced to roll in terms of PvP. Yet these days people are far more experienced so the scene in vanilla has changed quite a bit.
Original Vanilla via SS/Vids/Memories and from private servers.
I am aware of the differences yes and I am also aware of misinformation. You won't do 5k damage in less than 1 second as a rogue in vanilla for it is not even mathematically possible even under out of the ordinary circumstances. But sure if we shall play with the thought I can claim that my warlock can do 11,2k damage in less than 1 second because it only takes 0,1 second for the server to update my Warlock's Soul Fire. :P
Look my point is that rogues are not able to do that, but that does not mean Rogues were bad in vanilla, for we both know they were more than excellent and only really got smashed by good geared Reckpaladins, Hunters, Shamans and sometimes Mages.
Vanilla rogues had a 1,5 sec GCD like everybody else. The second you do an Ambush you get recked really. A druid will insta bear, stun you and then just run off / kite you. A hunter will Scatter Shot you instantly and then you're already dead unless you happen to run around waiting for SoID to be ready every 5 min. A mage will just nova. Paladins will HoJ you instantly and laugh. Priest's will fear. Rogues will vanish/blind you. Shamans will just go semi AFK while the ZGT+LS combo does the work for them. Warlocks will DC you instantly. And finally warriors will eq the shield and start chasing you.
The bottom line is that utterly few rogues rolled ambush/backstab spec because it was so open for counters.
Hunter traps lasted for aprox 12 seconds (freezing) and 30 seconds (Frost, untalented), the 1 million reckoning stack got hotfixed in early vanilla and gamebreaking items could be used by anyone and was sometimes the key to beat better geared players. In Wotlk this is not the case because no matter how fancy and smart you get with certain items it will not change anything.Edited: May 23, 2018
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Forum Veteran
this is it, end of conversation
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The Lightbringer
Remove racial effects from BG's. No need to cry about them anymore.
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Member
Been there, done that- I was in TKT several months ago, did a bunch of AV enabler premades, stomped people and got bored, left all my Icecrown guilds, and went back to Frostwolf.
And yeah, I suppose doing premades with TKT was "better" than getting farmed in the graveyard, but that's setting the bar really low for an enjoyable pvp experience. Especially since I know that the poor horde schmoes getting farmed are the kind of gearing new players that any server needs to survive.
Right now the Icecrown bg scene is dominated by guilds full of the equivalent of African big game safari hunters, who run around in huge zergs blasting away every animal they see with their huge, expensive guns. But where's the actual pvp in that? And how will Icecrown attract new pvpers if that's what they have to go through? You can only slaughter defenseless animals for so long before they go extinct. The bg population of Icecrown is pretty shockingly low for a server its size. Gee, I wonder why that is?
A huge part of the problem is that Icecrown people seem to think that there's no other way. That's just not true- as my Frostwolf experience tells me. Maybe it's because of its small population, but the guys who play on Frostwolf now seem to be concerned for the survival of the expansion they love, so they take care not to make the bg scene a nightmare of huge premades. I know that I and a lot of the other serious bgers I see doing Frostwolf bgs tend to queue solo on our fully geared toons these days, on whichever faction needs help the most at a given time. If I'm farming horde in the graveyard on my ally toon, I will log off and queue horde the next game. I see others doing that as well, and- shocker - the situation remedies itself very quickly.
There's no reason guilds on Icecrown like TKT and Old Division couldn't agree among themselves to, say, get rid of AV enabler and queue no more than 5 in a group. If you have a problem with not having overwhelming odds in your favor, then I don't think that's real pvp- that's just trolling. It's also pretty cowardly, which isn't something a "serious" pvp guild should want to be.Edited: May 23, 2018
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Rock n' Roll Racing Champion
The entire point of premades is making sure you win. I don't see pvp guilds saying "well, let's do this thing which will decrease our chances of winning when we do a premade".
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Field Medic
Even if limited to only 5 people, or hell, even 3 people, you still astronomically increase your chances at success. Which is a good thing. It's an MMO. That's how it's supposed to work.
I'd give the complaints more weight if there was a more tangible faction imbalance, or if we were talking about areans. But as far as I can tell, neither are the case.
Also consider that the underlying systems in MoP are also drasitcally different. PvE gear does not have the same impact as it does in Wrath. MoP in general is treated as a more competitive game due to the implementations of things like war games and rated battlegrounds, of which Wrath has none. The MoP playerbase is also significantly smaller and more tight-nit than Icecrown, which also results in a lower turn-over rate for MoP, which then also results in the gear levels on MoP being more stable. Whereas Icecrown, on the other hand, always has a steady stream of new players trying to get some gear, while other players like to complain about them.
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