Yes, big difference. If you would have joined guild you would probably have LoD on Lordaeron by now and wouldn't make stupid guides that doesn't work. You would be forced to learn DK to stay in guild or go back too pugs, maybe that's what happened.
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Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
Imagine clipping ur dots with pestilence, trash guide reaping is a must for endgame get good.
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Member
@Thydus, it was already addressed as a net dps gain for single target regardless of wandering plague not being able to proc if both diseases "crit", this was not a guide it was a suggestion,
@angrylol you're claiming that I have no clue what I'm talking about because I haven't joined a guild on this server. I've joined guild runs on other servers and got LoD before, I know what I'm talking about, this build is entirely experimental for the 100th time I'll say it again
***This build is entirely experimental***
oh and did I mention it's experimental?
Anyways, everything you all brought up, all the mechanics, have been addressed and now we're running around in a circle with everyone calling me stupid instead of implementing the build, showing it doesn't work, and then backing it up with solid hard evidence.
Even in simulations my build outperforms the original build, and that's in a simulation where rng isn't a factor.
Also @angrylol, scourge strike glyph will increase the amount of scourge strikes + blood strikes however it reduce icy talons if icy talons if unaffected by scourge strike, however it's to my understanding that while frost plague is applied then icy talons will also be applied, regardless though, 17-0-54 vs 3-15-53 both are viable for this build and blood sub-spec might even be better as it provides 3 reaping.
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Forum Veteran
Diseases tick apart, even if you refresh with Pestilence.
You can clip diseases, as long as you refresh with 4th blood rune.
No one is calling you stupid, but I said to you like 5 times - SCOURGE STRIKE GLYPH DOES NOT GIVE YOU MORE SCOURGE STRIKES. It gives you 1 more Blood Strike each minute. If you cant understand that maybe you really are stupid, I don't know.
Now imagine this, this is what you do whith Glyph of SS
(+) is Blood Strike
(-) is Pestilence
each line is 10 secs apart:
0 - Diseases are on target, just refreshed. Scourge strikes in the middle.
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (-) Refresh with Pestilence (almost 30 secs passed)
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (-) Refresh with Pestilence (almost 30 secs passed)
Total:
10 Blood Strikes
2 Pestilences
12 Scourge Strikes
#################
Glyph of Disease only:
0 - Diseases are on target, just refreshed. Scourge strikes in the middle.
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (-) Refresh with Pestilence (almost 20 secs passed)
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (-) Refresh with Pestilence (almost 20 secs passed)
+10 seconds (+) (+)
+10 seconds (+) (-) Refresh with Pestilence (almost 20 secs passed)
Total:
9 Blood Strikes
3 Pestilences
12 Scourge Strikes
I don't know how else to explain. Can you maybe explain so I understand where so you think you get more Scourge Strikes from Glyph of SS?
That's what YOU are supposed to do, because every single person already knows what is what, except you.Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
Do you actually realize that we have been telling that your ''experimental build'' has been tested YEARS AGO and it is proven that sometimes is SLIGHTLY better on single target in a raiding environment. On AoE it just gets wrecked by STR unholy due to stonger diseases & DnD (also BB in case of RS embers).
We got no need to show you ''it doesn't work'' because when you have played dk for some time you would've most likely tested it already and seen it is not effective at all (the trade off in single target vs AoE doesn't compensate). As I said I've seen only one DK making it work (17/0/54 btw, not with frost sub spec) and was getting boosted every single boss and scripts were also different, tha same guy today plays STR.
If everyone is telling you that your build has already been tested and it is not better, don't you think you might gotta accept that you're wrong?
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Member
I edited your quote with my responses @angrylol
With scourge strike glyph it's
----------------------------------------------------------------
5 bs
1 pestilence
or
2 SS 1 bs 1 pestilence
vs
Without glyph
------------------------------
3 bs
1 pestilence
or
1 SS
1 BS
1 pestilence
So with the glyph it's 1 extra SS in a 30 second time-period and 2 extra every minute.
Also your scenario is only for opening rotation which begins with 2 blood strikes, you'll replace that with scourge strike after so try this
open
IT + PS + SS + BS + pestilence (just to make it consistant obvious you probably do a bs here)
THEN factor in your rotation after diseases are on target
With glyph of SS
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + BS + Pestilence
x2 for 1 minute period
16 SS
2 BS
2 pestilence
vs without glyph of SS
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + BS + pestilence
x3
15 SS
3 BS
3 pestilence
Without
15 SS
3 BS
3 pestilence
GCD count: 21
With the glyph
16 SS
2 BS
2 pestilence
GCD count: 20
With the glyph it opens up another SS every minute and an extra gcd for horn of winter if you so please
Also if 2 blood strikes out damages 2 scourge strikes (I doubt it does) then you could exchange those in the rotation.
I do agree that the glyph of scourge strike seems a bit iffy at best and may not be the best glyph, however, the glyph of pestilence is essential.
The glyph of scourge strike adds a free rune every minute.
Also to address reaping
Your rotation w/o reaping assuming diseases already applied and reset
SS + SS + BS + BS
SS + SS + BS + pestilence
x3
---------
12 SS, 9 BS, 3 pestilence Extra damage to note: unholy blight + 1 pt in morbidity and 1 point of subversion
W/reaping
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + BS + pestilence
x3
---------
15 SS, 3 BS, 3 pestilence, Damage loss to note: unholy blight + 1 pt in morbidity and 1 point of subversion(if frost, else no loss to subversion)
w/o reaping but with SS glyph
SS + SS + BS + BS
SS + SS + BS + BS
SS + SS + BS + pestilence
x2
----------
12 SS, 10 BS, 2 pestilence, Extra damage to note: unholy blight + 1 pt in morbidity and 1 point of subversion
w/reaping and SS glyph
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + SS
SS + SS + BS + pestilence
x2
16 SS, 2 BS, 2 pestilence, Damage loss to note: unholy blight + 1 pt in morbidity and 1 point of subversion(unless blood, which favors this rotation)
The question this leaves as to if we should take reaping is:
Does 1 SS with arpen cap and this build out damage 2 blood strikes, unholy blight and 1 point of morbidity.
Likely yes, and likely reaping is a good talent to take, however if 2 BS > 1 SS with this build or even if 2 BS = 1 SS then reaping is a terrible talent to take as you lose the point in morbidity and unholy blight.
ALSO
If aoe dps is a massive concern with this build you could replace reaping easily with 2 points in morbidity, replace glyph of scourge strike with glyph of death and decay, replace 1 point of icy talons if sub-frost with subversion or 1 point of dark conviction. If you want good aoe then blood build 16-0-55 would be best, 3 points of morbidity, glyph of DnD instead of glyph of scourge strike
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Forum Veteran
No, that's not how it works, whenever you apply Icy Fever trough Icy Touch or Pestilence you gain Icy talons with 20 seconds duration. Glyph of SS simply extends duration of existing Icy Fever and has no impact on Icy Talins whatsoever.
None of those builds are viable in context where you are challenged to do your best(guilds). Can work in pugchamp groups with 5.8k in ICC 10n tough. Because all those builds are inferior.
####
You get 12 unholy and 12 frost runes each minute.
How can you do 16 SS when you have runes only for 12?
With Reaping you can convert 6 Blood runes to Death each minute, thats 3 more Scourge Strikes.
Also with Reaping and SS glyoph you cant do 2 SS in a row from blood runes. you need to convert them with Blood Strike or PEstilence.
w/reaping and SS glyph
SS + SS + SS(this ss uses death runes converted in step 3 below)
SS + SS + SS(you cant use this ss bbecause both runes are blood, not death, previous ss converted them back)
SS + SS + BS + pestilence(converts runes for use for ss in step 1)
x2
It just doesnt work man. Its either Reaping with 20sec cycles or Glyph of SS w/o reaping because they interfere with eachother.Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
So, to address your concerns,
yes 17-0-54 would be aight, but yet again, at that point concerning aoe wouldn't 16-0-55 with 3 points of morbidity be better for DnD dps?
Also
He doesn't use this specific rotation I'm quite sure, and probably uses the base rotation of
IT + PS + SS + BS + BS
x6
And in the end for the meta build, I'd argue that glyph of disease> dark death due to the removal of icy touch and plague strike in favor of a scourge strike, as I'm quite sure icy touch + plague strike and the added fact that wandering plague's icd is 1 second so stacking your diseases causes wandering plague to lose the ability to proc off both diseases (for single target only, aoe pestilence doesn't change effect) + the 15% damage of death coil, WP DP = wandering plague double proc. So
WP DP
3 IT
3 PS
15% death coil damage
vs
3 scourge strike and natural pestilence in rotation (no wasted pestilence when aoe is needed, it's free in this rotation)
per minute
It's my belief that the 15% deathcoil damage, 3 Icy Touches, 3 plague strikes, and wandering plague single target double proc chance damage, will all do less damage than 3 scourge strikes every minute.
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Member
Very important new questions though:
First question:
Does unholy blight stack with itself like ignite (I know it used to in previous patches and it was nerfed because of it) but does unholy blight still stack in 3.3.5?
If it does not then it's quite a weak talent because
1). If it does not stack then the dot over-writes itself and causes a net damage loss
2). If it does stack then it can do a massive amount of damage
3). If it just replaced itself BUT did the previous UHblight dot damage instantly, then it'd be a 10% buff completely to deathcoil, however spamming death coil is dps loss if it simply over-writes itself, but is still an overall dps boost due to the way dk rune rotation works, therefor making this talent do even less damage (down from 10% of DC damage to probably 4-5% extra damage, weaker than morbidity, which affects DnD as well)
Edit:
Unholy blight based on what I could find:
It doesn't stack but it does all the damage of DC completely by 10% of all the damage, regardless of how much is done.
1k DC damage = 100 unholy blight damage, add in 3 more DC when UB is at 60 damage that's 360 UB damage over 10 seconds, the damage will still be done.
Overall: Unholy blight is a net increase of 10% of deathcoils dps as the talent says without wasting any of the extra damage.
Second question:
How does necrosis's damage work?
Based on what I've been told, learned, found online
1). It does the damage very similar to scourge strike and does a shadow damage attack for 20% of the physical damage your auto attacks do
2). It should be 100% affected by armor penetration
3). I'm asking this question because this doesn't make as much sense to me, if necrosis does 20% of your auto attack damage, and your autos do at least 20-30% (with this build more) of your overall damage, then shouldn't necrosis do at least 4-6% of your overall damage? I never see necrosis doing this much damage.
So what I believe to be the case is
Necrosis does extra shadow damage based on the auto attack damage you would do BEFORE all factors are put into account.
1). This would mean necrosis does NOT scale with crit
2). This would mean necrosis does NOT scale with arpen (although it wouldn't matter as it wouldn't have it's damage reduced by armor anyways in this case)
3). This would mean necrosis should do at least 2-3% of your damage which I still don't see
Necrosis is the name of an addon + there's a lot of info about real life disease and **** so learning about this talent is a pain in the ***
BcB is really nice though, as it adds an average of 6.25% white damage per talent point, AND it can crit and does all physical damage scaling with arpen.
Third question:
Really simple: Is unholy blight classified as a disease, increasing all your damage from other sources? I believe the answer is no, still confirmation would be nice.
Fourth question:
Scourge strike and blood strike classified as spells? Receiving double damage from runic focus + the bonuses from talent points? I believe the answer is yes, however would appreciate confirmation.
Fifth question:
Is scourge strike glyph bugged?
Why do I keep getting told scourge strike will reduce the time icy talons is up. The way icy talons works is everytime frost fever does damage, icy talons remains up. If scourge strike extends the frost plague by 9 seconds, that's 9 seconds longer frost fever is leaching the attack speed from the enemy, and that's 9 seconds longer on icy talons. If icy talons is not extended when frost fever is extended this is a bug that needs to be reported, and no this is not how blizzard intended as icy talons is supposed to be up 100% of the time frost fever is up.Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
@angrylol, stop trolling me, and stop trying to get my thread locked. It's not a guide, I never claimed it was, I claimed it was a different build and style to play deathknight that SHOULD out dps the traditional playstyle BUT loses out on aoe. I know how to play DK, and I'm simply trying to mix/max and improve the build to achieve it's maximum potential.
This build is not better nor worse than the original meta build, and it servers a different purpose than the meta build.
Anyways, if anyone could answer the 5 questions I previously posted that would be a tremendous help and I would be able to continue editing the original post to better inform players interested in trying arpen max on unholy dk.
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Forum Veteran
exctly
It is not affected by arp, No that's not right. It will do 20% of whatever your white swings do, doesnt matter stats. and if your auto attack crits it does 20% from crit.
I don't think so, its 5-6% dmg from auto attacks with 3/3, not per point. Actually its even lower I think, under 5%. It can not crit.
It's not a disease
Those are melee abilities with x2 baseline, further improved by talents. Runic focus is aimed at Death Coil, Icy Touch and such.
It has nothing to do with disease duration, talent clearly states that when you apply Icy Fewer you gain it for 20 secs. So, Icy Touch or Pestilence refreshes it.Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
As for how reaping works, I never use this talent so I didn't know the mechanics of it, I assumed the blood rune would remain a death rune for a period of time long enough for 2 SS to be used back to back. This talent generally is not used in many builds and is not very good imho, however our focus is to max scourge strikes per minute so I suppose you're correct with the belief that scourge strike glyph with reaping doesn't work out, HOWEVER, I am still questioning reaping as a talent choice
I believe that morbidity might be a much better talent overall compared to reaping.
Morbidity = 15% more death coil damage, much lower cd on DnD (for aoe)
You lose 5% death coil damage in favor of morbidity, however you gain the much lower cd of DnD in cases when you need DnD for aoe.
You'll still have the scourge strike glyph however if we remove the SS glyph the trade off would be
15% damage on deathcoil or 20% damage on DnD (you can literally carry stacks of both glyphs and switch them out for single target and aoe damage fights if it matters that much) vs 1 extra blood strike per minute from SS glyph.
It looks like a no brainer that 15% more DC damage > 1 BS/minute but keep in mind arpen cap + 9% crit from subversion AND no UB
ALSO
I was considering taking 3 points of annihalation, and instead of taking scourge strike and appropriate talents for scourge strike, instead making an unholy build focused on obliterate instead, although I'm unsure how that would play out. Just something I was curious about.
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Member
Unfortunately I can't test this out atm due to ..... problems but if you wanted to you could get the glyph and test it out as we constantly bicker back and fourth
however:
Icy Talons: You leech heat from victims of your Frost Fever, so that when their melee attack speed is reduced, yours increases by 4/8/12/16/20% for the next 20 sec.
Improved Icy Touch: Your icy touch does an additional 15% damage and your Frost Fever reduces melee and ranged attack speed by an additional 6%.
This means that for the entire duration of your frost fever you should be leeching the mob/bosses attack speed, and therefor icy talons should be up and
constantly refreshed to 20 seconds while frost fever is applied to the target as it lowers their attack speed the entire time it's on the target.
Edit: I put replies in response to every point but it came out sloppy, I wrote more than it looks like
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Forum Veteran
I had crystallized build here or something along these lines for single target capped arp.
Glyps
Disease
Ghoul
Dark Death
I had some sheet with all the things and damage I trade for what, everything cool and stuff, best build from all these pipe dream arp builds.
Can't find it, dont care, have fun with your build.
P.S
for the next 20 sec.Edited: December 10, 2019
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Member
Again a few things, just so anyone that actually reads through all this isn't misinformed,
1. Unholy Blight works exactly like Ignite/Deep wounds. It's basically a 10% increase to Death Coil damage.
2. Frost Fever does not refresh Icy Talons when it deals damage lmao. It refreshes it when it is applied. As an example, when you roll with Glyph of Disease (sort of a special interaction) or when you cast Icy Touch/Chains of Ice.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...+%22Razielz%22
As proof.
3. The build the OP is advertising so hard is worse than the meta build from 9 years ago. Both in single and multi-target, although the difference in single target as predicted by Kahories isn't necessarily huge (~111 dps).
4. Despite what the OP may claim, this spec doesn't serve any particular purpose aside from being hipster.
5. Thydus mentions clipping dots with Pestilence, but that only occurs if you're not using Glyph of Disease, which, admittedly, is most of the time, however, the OP mentions GoD explicitly for his setup so what Thydus is saying in the first part of his post is bull****. Secondly, Reaping is only slightly benefitial in full BiS and only on fights that are extremely static and you have no downtime (e.g. festergut, rotface, dbw). Basically read that it's not worth it for the fights that matter.
6. Which server you're on for this particular discussion doesn't matter in the slightest. Lordaeron has bosses with shorter enrage timer and more HP, but the class mechanics remain the same. There's some extreme speculation, mainly from Lordaeron players that boss damage is also buffed, but as of writing this post I've not seen any dev confirm/deny this. If anyone can, please do so or even better, if Mercy (can't tag sadly) can forward this question to warmane's dev team it would be lovely.
To summarise:
The OP is someone that isn't very aware of how the class works in several areas (Unholy Blight, Icy Talons) and hasn't used sims properly. I'd heavily advise against listening to him.Edited: December 10, 2019
