Dkp system is cancer - change my mind

[angrylol]

you can prefer whatever you want, doesn't make it a good system. and pugs are cancer. which is mostly why i quit playing. every guild and their dog runs some ******ed loot system, and pugs aren't worth the headache of joining.

Could you give a draft what would be good and fair system for guilds? Maybe it's the next big thing that everyone will use.

[Skuddy]

Could you give a draft what would be good and fair system for guilds? Maybe it's the next big thing that everyone will use.

you attend a raid, loot drops, if it's an upgrade for you you roll on it. highest roll wins. not a new concept. past raids shouldn't have any effect on your ability to roll for loot dropped in the current raid.

[angrylol]

And then other systems are invented because luck is not fair by definition. You can lose roll every week for years and years easily. If 10 people roll against each other, betting something, in the end only one will have everything. It's not going to "balance out" and everyone will not have equal value of what they started with, there will be only one winner. It's "rigged" fundamentally.

With DKP you might not get any items at the start, but eventually you will have earned enough to take item 100% guaranteed.(and then of coarse some second week member going to cry on forums how it's not fair because you just took the item, you scammer you)

Not really a new concept. I just feel sorry for all these guys who never even been in a decent guild, don't know how it works and then feel like everything is a scam.

[Skuddy]

And then other systems are invented because luck is not fair by definition. You can lose roll every week for years and years easily. If 10 people roll against each other, betting something, in the end only one will have everything. It's not going to "balance out" and everyone will not have equal value of what they started with, there will be only one winner. It's "rigged" fundamentally.

With DKP you might not get any items at the start, but eventually you will have earned enough to take item 100% guaranteed.(and then of coarse some second week member going to cry on forums how it's not fair because you just took the item, you scammer you)

Not really a new concept. I just feel sorry for all these guys who never even been in a decent guild, don't know how it works and then feel like everything is a scam.

luck is completely fair. everyone has the same chance of rolling a 100 as they do a 0. you have the same chance as everyone else in the raid of winning said item.

the whole thing could also easily be fixed by adding in personal loot. would kill dkp, reserving, ninja's etc all in 1 shot.

[OhieMitzen]

Welcome to Mitzen Co!

We are valued and sought out employers across the nation! We offer our work environments for you to become the very best in your field! We have a long history of successful projects. We are a strong community and we work to improve not just ourselves, but others as well. We offer multiple platforms of various types to learn, teach, share information and become master in your field. We value all of our hard workers, and we pay them according to their achievements, and work they've put into this magnificent company. For without them, we may not be able to offer you your chance to shine. This is why we use DKP system.

What? DKP system is unfair? What should we use then? Just roll? Okay.

Hello our hard working members, from the new all the way to our very top, OhieMitzen himself! OhieMitzen has been the person you go to for aid, for funs, and to share and talk about ways to improve our projects. OhieMitzen has been in this company for 15 years and is still working on achieving something he's been after all these years. Let's not forget our new members like Tony, and Jack. Tony and Jack just started with us yesterday, and are coming to see one of out top projects. Usually we have strict core members we wish to bring along, however we decided to give them their chance. What's better way to teach than experiencing, nothing!

Oh my, this is certainly interesting! The very achievement OhieMitzen has been after is finally ours! Time to roll and see who has the fairest chance to obtain this marvelous achievement! OhieMitzen rolls 2. Jack rolls 99. Jack is the winner! CONGRATULATIONS JACK! You've truly earned this with all your hard work you've put into this 2 hour session! Let's celebrate at Dalaran inn, rounds on this narrator!

During the big party, Jack left the company, as he decided to defect to other faction. Tony died to drug overdose during after-party, don't do drugs.
OhieMitzen committed suicide as he had no will to live anymore. Prior to his suicide, he took all the money from the company, and blew it all on hookers and fast cars.

The company was dismantled.

[Skuddy]

Welcome to Mitzen Co!

We are valued and sought out employers across the nation! We offer our work environments for you to become the very best in your field! We have a long history of successful projects. We are a strong community and we work to improve not just ourselves, but others as well. We offer multiple platforms of various types to learn, teach, share information and become master in your field. We value all of our hard workers, and we pay them according to their achievements, and work they've put into this magnificent company. For without them, we may not be able to offer you your chance to shine. This is why we use DKP system.

What? DKP system is unfair? What should we use then? Just roll? Okay.

Hello our hard working members, from the new all the way to our very top, OhieMitzen himself! OhieMitzen has been the person you go to for aid, for funs, and to share and talk about ways to improve our projects. OhieMitzen has been in this company for 15 years and is still working on achieving something he's been after all these years. Let's not forget our new members like Tony, and Jack. Tony and Jack just started with us yesterday, and are coming to see one of out top projects. Usually we have strict core members we wish to bring along, however we decided to give them their chance. What's better way to teach than experiencing, nothing!

Oh my, this is certainly interesting! The very achievement OhieMitzen has been after is finally ours! Time to roll and see who has the fairest chance to obtain this marvelous achievement! OhieMitzen rolls 2. Jack rolls 99. Jack is the winner! CONGRATULATIONS JACK! You've truly earned this with all your hard work you've put into this 2 hour session! Let's celebrate at Dalaran inn, rounds on this narrator!

During the big party, Jack left the company, as he decided to defect to other faction. Tony died to drug overdose during after-party, don't do drugs.
OhieMitzen committed suicide as he had no will to live anymore. Prior to his suicide, he took all the money from the company, and blew it all on hookers and fast cars.

The company was dismantled.

nice story, 10/10.

[SabDK]

you can prefer whatever you want, doesn't make it a good system. and pugs are cancer. which is mostly why i quit playing. every guild and their dog runs some ******ed loot system, and pugs aren't worth the headache of joining.

Doesn't matter what I prefer. I gave you multiple reasons as to why DKP has been a solid and fair loot system for guilds in the past ~16 years. Rolling a dice favors newcomers and casuals instead of the people who actually make the guild progress in raid content. DKP gives everyone a chance to get what they want while also rewarding those carrying the guild.

You dislike DKP because it favors people who put in time and effort. You dislike pugs and their dice because...well, we all know why pugs are mostly cancer. You even quit the game because of that, yet you still argue that rolling a dice and the pure rng it involves is the way to go (with the possibilities given on Warmane currently). Makes it look like you simply didn't have the time and/or the will to put in some effort into a guild to earn your gear like most people do.

I know, I know..You don't care what I say or think etc. because of the grumpy cat you are. That's all fine and dandy. :p

[Skuddy]

Doesn't matter what I prefer. I gave you multiple reasons as to why DKP has been a solid and fair loot system for guilds in the past ~16 years. Rolling a dice favors newcomers and casuals instead of the people who actually make the guild progress in raid content. DKP gives everyone a chance to get what they want while also rewarding those carrying the guild.

You dislike DKP because it favors people who put in time and effort. You dislike pugs and their dice because...well, we all know why pugs are mostly cancer. You even quit the game because of that, yet you still argue that rolling a dice and the pure rng it involves is the way to go (with the possibilities given on Warmane currently). Makes it look like you simply didn't have the time and/or the will to put in some effort into a guild to earn your gear like most people do.

I know, I know..You don't care what I say or think etc. because of the grumpy cat you are. That's all fine and dandy. :p

i dislike dkp because it's based on past raids, which have absolutely nothing to do with the current raid. if you attend the current raid, you should be able to freely roll on gear dropped from that raid.

i despise pugs for 2 reasons, 1 being they're generally horribly ran, 2 being they often have several people who don't speak ****ing english which makes any form of communication impossible.

and i quit the game mostly because everyone runs dkp or epgp or w/e bastardized custom version of the 2 they feel like. the longest stretch i did play for i was actually in a guild that raided and used the /roll system. and surprise surprise it worked very well for over a year before rl things got in the way for some of the leaders.

time and will were never an issue, the stupid looting rules of most guilds were.

you are 100% correct on 1 thing tho, and that' is that i don't care what you say/think.

[Gnimo]

Fun fact, GUILD is not based on a CURRENT RAID.
GUILD is a LONG TIME INVESTMENT and PROGRESSION.
You INVEST MORE in the guild, you get more GUILD POINTS, you get more LOOT.
If you want to join for CURRENT RAID only, you join a PUG.

As people already said, there are multiple options to make the DKP system fair to both new members that just joined and/or members who play less than those who have 10 alts ready for 2 raids per day situations.
So far, from people that pretend /roll is a good system, there is 0 effort in order to try and make it fair or give a suggestion on any other alternative that will make everyone "happy" (you cant make everyone happy).
Saying that ROLL and LUCK are fair, sure thing bro... Is this stand up comedy post?

Try never rolling over 50 on multiple alts for months.
Or rolling and winning 5/5 items you needed from the whole raid where those items are 1% upgrade to you over someone who will get a 10%+ upgrade from the same item (upgrade is an upgrade, dont try to make it now where you dont get to roll if its 1%).

The ONLY "fair" roll system is the one where you can soft reserve 1 (or 2 max) item from a raid in a public discord/chat, where you get to roll on that item you soft reserved or on items no one did.
That way you can soft reserve items that no one or few reserved and have better chance of getting it, and not get ducked by rng completely.

Also, how is it fair for someone who is there every night doing top DPS, made multiple alts just so he can attend all the guild runs and help them kill bosses, have the same odds when rolling on an item he wants as someone who logs for 1 raid only and never shows up for the rest of the week?
Guild is a lot of work, from both officers, core and members, and ROLLING system does not take anything in to the account, its pure rng, and it is NOT fair.

You reply way too much for someone who does not care about what others say/think btw.

If you quit the game, why are u even here?
If you hate all those guild loot rules, why dont u just spend some extra time on work in real life and donate for items, join a guild and just raid for fun?

[fdbsfhe4rfar]

fun fact, GUILD is not about progression, GUILD is about GREED. Dkp means guild keeps all the lot and u can go **** urself, if u're not a core member.

why invest into smth u know people created only for themselves ?

not thx. group loot + / roll and get BIS or die tryin

[Sixtyninee]

fun fact, GUILD is not about progression, GUILD is about GREED. Dkp means guild keeps all the lot and u can go **** urself, if u're not a core member.

why invest into smth u know people created only for themselves ?

not thx. group loot + / roll and get BIS or die tryin

I take it you haven't actually reached any sort of end game content yet. You will die waiting for pugs to farm it.

[Gnimo]

What the actual...?!

For a GUILD you need AT LEAST 25 active players.
25 is a lot if you ask me.
And I doubt all 25 of them are CORE MEMBERS that made the guild for themselves.

You log in at XX:XX server time to get in a 25m raids with in 10-15minutes.
You kill bosses faster (ALL BOSSES, not 4/12) and get to know 24 other players and have fun with them.
You SHARE the loot that drops and repeat this every week (eventually all 24 players get gear for MULTIPLE chars just so you know).

Now compare that with a pug.

I have NO CLUE what is the DEFINITION OF A GUILD you guys are talking, but MY definition of a guild is:
"25 players hanging out, killing bosses, killing free time and making an otherwise bad day in to a good one."
You repeat this over and over and over again, and FUN FACT, eventually ALL the items drop MULTIPLE times (maybe repeating this will get to your head).
So, you might not get the items first time it drops, but eventually, those 24 people get the item you want and now its your turn.

What you guys expect is a fast gearing process without any effort put in to it. Instant bis list on your char.
You don't get that. Although you could always donate...

You ether try to get EXTREMELY lucky in a pug, or you join a guild and take your time with ranking up, getting DKP, and eventually the items.

[StkySokmonster]

It has nothing to do with "instant gratification," just with equal treatment.

Using your own argument. If you truly want "equal treatment", then you clearly should not mind putting in equal time/effort.
Just say that you (No, not you specifically) want **** without having to go through the effort of earning it.
That said, there are definitely cases of favoritism, cheating and corruption in some of those cases/guilds. Loot rules being adjusted on the fly to benefit the player you like vs the one that legitimately won and "needs" an item.

[Skuddy]

Fun fact, GUILD is not based on a CURRENT RAID.
GUILD is a LONG TIME INVESTMENT and PROGRESSION.
You INVEST MORE in the guild, you get more GUILD POINTS, you get more LOOT.
If you want to join for CURRENT RAID only, you join a PUG.

As people already said, there are multiple options to make the DKP system fair to both new members that just joined and/or members who play less than those who have 10 alts ready for 2 raids per day situations.
So far, from people that pretend /roll is a good system, there is 0 effort in order to try and make it fair or give a suggestion on any other alternative that will make everyone "happy" (you cant make everyone happy).
Saying that ROLL and LUCK are fair, sure thing bro... Is this stand up comedy post?

Try never rolling over 50 on multiple alts for months.
Or rolling and winning 5/5 items you needed from the whole raid where those items are 1% upgrade to you over someone who will get a 10%+ upgrade from the same item (upgrade is an upgrade, dont try to make it now where you dont get to roll if its 1%).

The ONLY "fair" roll system is the one where you can soft reserve 1 (or 2 max) item from a raid in a public discord/chat, where you get to roll on that item you soft reserved or on items no one did.
That way you can soft reserve items that no one or few reserved and have better chance of getting it, and not get ducked by rng completely.

Also, how is it fair for someone who is there every night doing top DPS, made multiple alts just so he can attend all the guild runs and help them kill bosses, have the same odds when rolling on an item he wants as someone who logs for 1 raid only and never shows up for the rest of the week?
Guild is a lot of work, from both officers, core and members, and ROLLING system does not take anything in to the account, its pure rng, and it is NOT fair.

You reply way too much for someone who does not care about what others say/think btw.

If you quit the game, why are u even here?
If you hate all those guild loot rules, why dont u just spend some extra time on work in real life and donate for items, join a guild and just raid for fun?

guilds don't need a stupid loot system to progress. the benefit of being in a guild is having a dedicated and constant group to raid with. and a group to chat with while not raiding.
me replying doesn't mean i give a **** about your opinion.
i'm still here because i can be.
not spending upwards of 30 bucks on 1 item.

I have NO CLUE what is the DEFINITION OF A GUILD you guys are talking, but MY definition of a guild is:
"25 players hanging out, killing bosses, killing free time and making an otherwise bad day in to a good one."
You repeat this over and over and over again, and FUN FACT, eventually ALL the items drop MULTIPLE times (maybe repeating this will get to your head).
So, you might not get the items first time it drops, but eventually, those 24 people get the item you want and now its your turn.

the exact same thing would happen if those 25 people were using roll. the only difference being everyone has an equal chance of winning an item.

[Elipas]

lol freeloaders complaining about dkp system :))))))))

lol will i get warning or ban if i call you lazy socialists/communists?

how is rolling a dice fair, you all depend on luck, jeez i remember my first month of raiding i didnt have the rank or dkp but after i got them it paid off, you guys wanna come as intern or newbie and get eveyrthing asap? Well you need connections for that otherwise rip