Stop denying ret paladins STS/DBW

[ResponsE7]

Ret ms here. No.

DChc, Tiny abo or WFShc until you get SM. Once you have SM, then STShc is viable(but you still won't get it over ARP classes for good reason) You're not being denied, you're actually being saved by people who understand the game.

[ExtraEmily]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, so I'll respond to both possibilities.

If I assume that you mean they should be on equal footing when rolling for the item, then I agree.

If I assume that you're suggesting that Rogue/Warrior/Hunter/whatever else should have priority over a Ret because they get more DPS out of it, then I have to disagree with you. I don't believe that Ret should be punished due to its supportive nature by denying them their BIS because one of those other classes (and don't have the item) are present. I could understand this mentality if it were an item from a prior raid tier and progression for the next raid tier was actually something that mattered to the guild. But it's not. If you're killing 25hc Halion, progression has been finished for a very long time already.

Its both of those things but depending alot on the situation of the guild, you could be struggling to kill halion/lod weekly and then having sts given to someone who will utilize it better might be a better idea then giving it to a ret paladin.
However thats not something that happends very often unless its on a progression server where they need to funnel gear to maximize raid damage which is rarely the case on Icecrown/Lordaeron these days.

Other then those rare moments rets should have the same chance to get STS as any other class
Hopefully that clears it up

[harrpaniz1]

As for Lordaeron players learning from icecrown, it's the otherway around,

Doesn't really seem like it considering you have to prioritize TOC trinkets that drop so often on Icecrown that it doesn't matter who gets it. Seems like Icecrown players don't need the skull trinket and can give it to the highest DKP bidder regardless of class while Lord players are stuck fighting about which 2 classes gets a trinket, apparently getting reported 500 times.

You talk about efficiency, but none of this sounds efficient to me lol.

[Obnoxious]

You're 100% wrong on that note, giving loot to everyone at random based on chance is not "fair" when raiding with a guild.

You not understanding what unadulterated fairness means doesn't make me wrong. Fairness in rolling for items doesn't involve entitlement or any sense of "deserving," there's no "right" to have it over others because you tried X amount of times already, there's no bar being filled until it says it's your turn. The raw roll of the dice doesn't care how many times you tried, all involved will do the exact same roll, without any pity bonus or subjectiveness to it. Whoever rolls higher gets it, simple as that. Eventually, if you keep trying, you will win it, but it will take either rolling higher or being the only one rolling, not some easily-manipulated "rule" favoring you. And that's what unbiased fairness is.

[Blind]

That mentality that loot for new members is "wasted" is among my top reasons to moving on to better games and not caring about WoW. It says a lot about a guild when they don't trust their own recruitment to bring in good new members, so they have to treat them as second- (or third- or fourth-) class citizens, while older members fatten their mains and alts with gear the newbies helped earn. I mean, that's the usual excuse, ain't it? "Oh but but but they might get an item and leave!!!111!" Sure, keep saying that.

You kind of ripped my statement out of context there, but I should've probably put more emphasis on the other things I mentioned. "Wasted" was set in quotation marks because I don't think the word is truly fitting in any way. It's just the most commonly used word/reason to enforce lootsystems.

Of course any system also comes with its own flaws. As I said if a guildrun actually offers better quality loot (or simply more chances at it) which you otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain in pugs or whatnot I do think it's a decent tradeoff.
If everything is made clear before and you're treated properly (and not denied obvious loot for someones random 3rd spec) it's at least worth considering tapping into a lootsystem guild.
E.g. we used to reserve certain things (e.g. Shadowfrost Shards and/or a specific weapon from lod) when inviting pugs but everything else was either rolled or passed to them directly if nobody needed it for their mainspec. The pugs we invited would otherwise not have done a "full clear" with rs/togc/icc on heroic in ~4 hours though.

That there are a lot of black sheep forcing ridicioulus "lootcouncil" decisions or a roster of people sitting on a billion DKP so you're never going to see any loot anyway while being treated like trash is of course true. But tbh those guilds you shouldn't even touch with a 10 foot pole.

But that's just my opinion and how we handled these things in the past years. If rolling wasn't so frustrating to bear for many people who can't handle the randomness these things wouldn't be necessary - and it took me over 60+ attempts to get sts hc on a toon because it simply wouldn't drop. Just gotta go with the flow.

BTW is this thread not sorta pointless now considering the OP decided to edit his entire opening post because he can't handle some backlash?

[Obnoxious]

You kind of ripped my statement out of context there

Nah, I didn't. My reply wasn't aimed at you, but at the dumb concept of "wasted," which you just brought up, nothing else.

I disagree with any system coming with flaws, though. Pure RNG has no inherent flaws, people just get butthurt if they have bad luck and act like they have some entitled "birthright" to get something "by X runs." That's not a flaw in the system, it's in the people.

I also don't sign up to this "well, there's worst out there so put up with the a bit less bad" idea. If a guild wants to target-gear someone in specific, they should just pick people who already have said item for the group instead of dangling the reward in front of people who also need it, but have this terrible flaw... of being new.

When you mix in random people to fill raid spots it feels, to me, even a little underhanded: holding the fact they wouldn't get a full run otherwise as a sort of blackmail for them to not want to be included in rewards. It might be true they wouldn't - but neither would you, or you wouldn't be recruiting them, so they are needed and take part in the run as much as anyone else. Sure, you can go "it is what it is" - and what it is is, like I said before, one of the main reasons I moved on to games with strictly personal loot (and untradable, so no guild can strongarm your personal loot out of you).