PRE-PULL SAVAGE ROAR
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)
Disclaimer: Look, I suspect that some users are already aware of the http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 and its possible applications in raids, but since there isn't a dedicated post concerning feral cats, I decided to write my thoughts here.
Thank you, Nap, for informing me about this item back in 2022.
I. Preface
Last year, when I worked on "Nuances in feral cat's gameplay", I observed the scenario when a person has CPs on a mob while SR is inactive during an idle period. Since we usually cast GotVV in those cases (e.g. Frostmourne chamber on LoD, waiting for BQL to land after the flight phases etc) and since SR doesn't consume the CC proc, I considered that it would be beneficial to refresh this finisher one second prior to jumping onto the boss again.
However, this doesn't narrow down only to idle periods in general. Let's take OS 3D for example. I know that in Classic VVrath players zerged the boss right from the get-go, but back on Frostmourne my guild used to kill the whelps one by one. Because of this, my RL told us to be idle at start until the first drake landed and then to burst it down. I, however, always disregarded that call. I preferred to attack the main boss for CPs which I used on SR right before the drake arrived. In order not to lose the procs of my trinkets, I swapped them during the 10-second pull timer (like, it takes 30 seconds for the first drake to swoop down), so I didn't hinder myself by playing like this.
The same effect can be achieved in ICC and potentially in RS with the help of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780.
II. General overview
(0:01 summoning the pinata; 0:17 - attacking it for CPs; 0:19 - 1:03 waiting for the trinkets' ICD to end; 1:03 engaging the boss)
(0:03 summoning the pinata; 0:29 - attacking it for CPs; 2:20 attacking the dummy with SR; 3:05 the pinata despawned)
(can be used in ICC)
(0:05 Claw -> running away didn't remove the aggro; 0:34 re-entering the dungeon allowed me to keep the CPs and healed the pinata; 1:03 - Lacerate for 5/5 Agile)
(outside of a raid instance, it behaves like a normal mob, i.e. you lose aggro after leaving its aggro range)
(resists the Mind Control effect of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506)
(0:47 can help us obtain http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060 from http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725)
Observations:
- since the item is a "toy", it has infinite uses;
- 30-min CD;
- it can be used in raids;
- it can be used indoors;
- it doesn't despawn when the boss is engaged;
- 5.3k HP;
- it despawns automatically 3 mins after being summoned;
- it puts us in combat until it's killed or it despawns;
- the summoned pinata is marked as "mechanical", but it's not affected by http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 despite what this wowhead commenter said. Ye, the item's tooltip is correct on warmane;
- despite http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506p not mentioning a level restriction, it seems that this trinket is too weak for the lvl 80 pinata;
- summoning the pinata in a raid instance and trying to run away won't remove the aggro. Ye, I was aware of this behaviour from the start, but I wasn't sure whether it would also affect mobs, who were recently summoned in the raid instance.
Pros:
- can be used to help us generate CPs for SR before pulling the boss;
-> this not only allows us to begin with a buffed Mangle and AAs, but it also spares us potential energy, which can be used on Shred in the long run;
-> since SR would be active at start, we can apply Rip sooner;
-> it also allows us to get more value from STS since we're no longer required to refresh SR during its duration;
- can help us reach 5/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=71175 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=61896.
- if we have http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725, the chicken can also attack it and buff us with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060 more consistently.
- it lasts long enough to be present during DBS's and LK's RP events;
- can potentially help other raid members as well (e.g. combat rogues);
- can be placed by someone else, and you can still benefit from the effect.
Cons:
- it's not obtainable through normal means. One needs to purchase it from the store for 15 coins;
- it has a rather small HP pool and can easily be killed (especially by your fellow raid members);
- attacking it puts us in combat, which we cannot leave unless we kill the pinata or re-enter the raid instance;
-> not killing the pinata prematurely would prevent us from using two Haste pots in a boss fight;
-> other raid members can become annoyed if they enter combat as well (imagine someone buffs you, and they cannot eat Fish Feast or wtv);
- can proc our trinkets;
- [S P E C U L A T I O N!] in case the warmane staff doesn't approve the pinata's usage in raids, the item might be restricted in raid instances.
Commentary:
If we start a boss fight with SR already present, then our Mangle and first two AAs (assuming 0.7 attack speed) would be buffed, so we don't suffer any penalties from investing CP-generators in favour of this finisher. Instead, we go straight for Rip and refresh it two seconds earlier, which allows us to get an additional bleed tick. Compare:
Another argument in favour of this play is the preserved energy, which we would most likely invest in Shred. Let's imagine a 3-min fight, where we also use SR with 5 CPs (let's stick with this just for the sake of simplicity). If we don't summon the pinata and cast SR pre-pull, we need to cast SR six times:Mangle -> SR -> Rake -> Shred -> Shred -> Rip
vs
Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip
If we pre-cast SR with 5 CPs, let's say we start the fight with 30-seconds duration. In that case, we will only cast five SRs during the actual boss encounter, which would allow us to preserve 25 energy:0:01 - 0:20 (first SR from Mangle) -> 0:21 - 0:55 (second SR) -> 0:56 - 1:30 (third SR) -> 1:31 - 2:05 (fourth SR) -> 2:06 - 2:40 (fifth SR) -> 2:41 - 3:00 (sixth SR)
There's another benefit of having something to attack prior to the boss, which I didn't realise earlier. You see, if a person has http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725, he needs to activate it 45 seconds before the boss encounter begins, so that his STS can be active during the burst phase. As a result, this shortens the chicken's "life expectancy" by that much. Having something to attack earlier keeps the chicken occupied, which can increase the likelihood of us obtaining http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060.0:31 - 1:05 (first SR) -> 1:06 - 1:40 (second SR) -> 1:41 - 2:15 (third SR) -> 2:16 - 2:50 (fourth SR) -> 2:51 - 3:00 (fifth SR)
Lastly, I'd like to talk about the possibility of us starting with 220 Agility from the get-go. If we use Lacerate once, it will be at its weakest state. Unlike Rake, which can inflict a lot of damage, 1-stack Lacerate would only "bruise" the pinata. VVith 220 Agility being present from start, we can immediately snapshot Rake and Rip with it. Compare:
Now, let's discuss the negatives. VVhen attacking the pinata, we inevitably proc our trinkets. As you already know, STS's ICD lasts 45 seconds, whereas DBVV's - 105. For that reason, the most optimal timing for the pinata is when we are passive for at least 100+ seconds. VVhile it's not impossible to imagine that a RL would set a 2-min pull timer before every boss, in reality no one would wait for us to get value out of the pinata. Knowing this, we can expect to use it mostly on DBS and on the LK because they have an RP event at start. On theory, it should also be possible to use the pinata in RS. Even if the pull timer is, say, 30 seconds, people usually need more time to prepare before the fight begins. VVe could place the pinata near the edges of Halion's arena right after killing the General, claw it for some CPs, leave the instance and re-enter it. As long as the raid engages the boss in less than 3 mins after us summoning the toy, we can safely gain CPs from it.{only SR is used pre-pull} Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip (everything up to this point has 0/5 Agile)
vs
{SR and Lacerate are used pre-pull} Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip (everything up to this point has 5/5 Agile)
Another negative aspect of this play is entering combat and not being able to leave it unless the pinata is destroyed. This is bad when the person also wants to pre-pot with the Haste potion. In order to circumvent it, the feral player needs to kill the pinata 5-10 seconds prior to engaging the boss, which would shorten SR's duration a bit (btw, this also concerns the case with RS if you want to gain 5/5 Agile procs because you need to use Lacerate 15-28 seconds before the fight starts).
Even then, the biggest dealbreaker for this theorycraft is imho the second counter-argument. I'll go off-topic for a bit and share a story of my earlier raiding days with <Storm>. Since the guild hadn't killed Halion 25 on HC back in 2019, we were rly trying hard to get the tactics right and to squeeze in as much damage as possible. There was a demolock, who used the http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=44844 to summon a turkey and get the SP buff from his pet demon. NGL, it was hilarious to kill the critter just to ruin that guy's mood. But, ye, this is my point - don't expect people to respect your pre-ogrener tactic. They will grieve you for ****s and giggles, especially if they're fed up with entering combat whenever they buff you.
One last thing. The following is my personal speculation, but I can imagine that the warmane devs restrict the pinata's usage in raids if they don't approve its combat applications there. Should such change be implemented, it would be justified and I'd like to explain why. Let's go off-topic once again and talk about the infamous world buffs in Vanilla VVoVV. From what I've heard, the devs had desired people to get some "cool" buffs while leveling. VVhat ended up happening (at least, years after Vanilla's release) was that players went to collect the world buffs before every single raid lock-out for optimal performance, which was not anticipated by the devs. However, there's a difference between creating a buff/item which directly enhances combat stats and a vanity buff/item, which also happens to have niche combat usages. My point is that http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 has pure cosmetic value, and if the warmane devs want to preserve it like this, they can rightfully do it. If someone purchases the pinata for 15 coins, and the item ends up being "nerfed", please don't lash out on the staff. Understand the potential risks and buy it with this outcome in mind.
III. An alternative approach (NOTHING VVORKS)
Up until today (28.11.2023), I thought that an alternative approach of getting CPs before the start of the fight would be going to the nearest faction city, attacking a target dummy and waiting for a summon from a warlock. Unfortunately, that doesn't work as you can see in these videos:
(I lost the SR buff after leaving the old continent)
(I lost the SR buff after entering ICC)
However, as I'm updating this post I found a different solution in the form of another mech - http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113:
As you can see, despite the bot being able to repair my items, I was able to attack it and gain CPs. This is not an exploit or a bug, since according to wowhead this NPC is neutral:
Source: https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/npc=24...-110g#comments
{08.01.2024} As I'm updating this post, I regret to inform you all that the 110G is no longer attackable:
IV. Actual theorycrafting
Let's ignore all non-gameplay-related counter-arguments I've listed above and concentrate on how to use the pinata optimally. Since it has 5.3k HP, we need to use the weakest CP-generator in our arsenal, which would get us to 5 CPs but not kill the pinata. This ability is actually:
http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=1082
Using anything else would do more damage and even kill it. I can't believe I'm saying this, but for optimal pinata pre-pull rotation one needs to have Claw at rank 1. If that's not possible (which, I expect, for most of us won't be the case, and we can't downgrade it believe me, I tried), then you need to be ALMOST naked when clawing the pinata, which will prevent your AAs from killing the pinata (if one AA inflicts 3k damage, you'd hardly get 1-2 CPs from attacking the pinata). The only items you need to wear are the trinkets. The reason for this will become clear later. Since you'd enter combat after attacking the pinata, you won't be able to equip your items until you leave this state. For that reason, you need to kill it prematurely. If you are completely naked, you'd kill the pinata, say, 5 seconds before engaging the boss, and then you'd equip your gear. However, as a result you'd also trigger the ICDs of your trinkets. In other words, they will be inactive during the burst phase. This is why you need to have them equipped before summoning the pinata.
If what I wrote above sounds a bit confusing, here's my idea with fewer words in a chronologial sequence:
Yeah, there's a lot of **** to do, so I don't expect this idea to catch on. Btw, this regards the situation when you don't have http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725. If you have the chicken, and you want to benefit from everything, then this is what you now need to do:0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Summon the pinata.
3) Equip your "naked" set.
4) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
5) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
6) Kill the pinata.
7) Equip your items.
8) GotVV.
9) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.
Such an amazing pre-pull sequence, amirit? Just imagine for a bit how someone pranks you by ninja pulling the boss whilst you being naked. VVhat do we even get from all of this? VVell...0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Equip the chicken.
3) 45 seconds prior to engaging the boss, you need to activate the chicken's effect and equip STS.
4) Summon the pinata.
5) Equip your "naked" set.
6) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
7) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
8) Kill the pinata.
9) Equip your items.
10) GotVV.
11) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.
(no trinket procs)
- buffed Mangle at start = 10,467.97 (2,597.32 damage gain)
- 2 buffed AAs at start = 6,728.28 (1,669.42 damage gain)
- extra Rip tick = 4,984.65 (4,984.65 damage gain)
- 25 preserved energy = Shred*25/42 = 15449.57*25/42 (9,196.17 damage gain)
Damage gain so far: 18,447.56 or around 100 dps in a 3-min fight
Gz to the winner, I suppose. /s
It gets even "better" if you want to use http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48568 for 220 Agility at start:
Absolute ****ing masterpiece. /s0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Equip the chicken.
3) 45 seconds prior to engaging the boss, you need to activate the chicken's effect and equip STS.
4) Summon the pinata.
5) Equip your "naked" set.
6) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
7) Use Lacerate 20-25 seconds before the boss encounter begins.
8) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
9) Kill the pinata.
10) Equip your items.
11) GotVV.
12) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.
Anyway, knowing that we need to kill the pinata prematurely, let's say we do so 10 seconds prior to the boss fight which would earn us 24 seconds of SR uptime. Imho, killing the pinata around 10 seconds prior to the pull would give the player enough time to collect his thoughts, to re-equip his gear, to cast GotVV and to pre-pot with the Haste potion in peace. From there onwards, depending on how many CCs the person obtains during Berserk he might decide to squeeze in a FB or just refresh SR.
In the following lines, I will observe the energy amount for both the TF-Berserk and Berserk-TF openers:
TF-Berserk
(0 CCs during Berserk)
Spoiler:Show
(1 CC during Berserk)
Spoiler:Show
(2 CCs during Berserk w/o FB)
Spoiler:Show
(2 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)
Spoiler:Show
comparing 2 CCs w/o Berserk vs w/ it
Spoiler:Show
(3 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)
Spoiler:Show
Commentary:
For the TF-Berserk opener, the only reason why there's no FB with 0 or 1 CCs is due to the fact that SR's and Rip's durations expire shortly after Berserk. Under normal circumstances, this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, but the absence of TF makes generating CPs in that short time frame quite challenging. Not even the GotVV-shift would be able to justify FB with 18-24 energy. That's why the sole FB needs to be cast mid-Berserk, which is only possible in the presence of at least 2 CCs. Then, again, I feel like I need to bring up an alternative solution. In the past, I read somewhere in the old EJ forums that Berserk is best used when both SR and Rip are about to expire. Yes, from a pure energy- and CP-management standpoint, it would be better to delay Berserk by, say, 10 seconds. The sequence in that case would look like so:
(The trinkets got swapped at 0:54, which was the reason why I didn't have their procs at start. I didn't realise it yday.)
The advantages of this play are:0) GotW + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [75 energy]
3) Shred [43 energy]
4) Rip [33 energy]
5) TF + Shred [61 energy]
6) Shred [30 energy]
7) GotVV [45 energy {instant cast spells last 1.5 seconds by default; for the sake of simplicity, I ignored spell haste}
8) Cat form [60 energy] {cat form lasts 1.5 seconds by default and is not affected by spell haste in general}
9) Shred with the CC [70 energy] //Rake expires after the GCD btw
10) Berserk [80 energy] 14 seconds remaining of Berserk //Rake is inactive for one second
11) Rake [72 energy] 13 seconds remaining of Berserk
12) Shred [61 energy] 12 seconds remaining of Berserk
13) Shred [50 energy] 11 seconds remaining of Berserk
14) Shred [39 energy] 10 seconds remaining of Berserk
15) Shred [28 energy] 9 seconds remaining of Berserk
16) Shred [17 energy] 8 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [21 energy] 7.6 seconds remaining of Berserk
17) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 6.6 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [13 energy] 6.3 seconds remaining of Berserk //by this point, SR's remaining duration is 5-6 seconds
18) SR [10 energy from GCD] 5.3 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [18 energy from GCD] 4.5 seconds remaining of Berserk //Rake expires in the meantime btw
19) Rake [10 energy from GCD] 3.5 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait around 1 sec [21 energy] 2.4 seconds remaining of Berserk
20) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 1.4 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait around 1 sec [21 energy] 0.3 seconds remaining of Berserk
21) Shred //Berserk expires immediately afterwards
22) Rip
- It allows us to get more value out of TF while still casting it at the start;
- VVe will be able to generate the needed CPs for both SR and Rip on time.
However, this still has a lot issues:
- Between 7) and 8), there's a 3-second idle time, where we pool energy. Casting GotVV and Cat form wastes a bit of STS value and with that - Hysteria value as well.
- There's still no opportunity to squeeze in a FB in Berserk unless the player acquires a lot of CCs from AAs and from Barkskin.
- Bad synergy with the GotVV-shift feat. idol swapping.
- A lot of unexpected **** can happen between 5) and 10), i.e. RNG will decide which abilities we'd actually use prior to Berserk and/or how long we would delay our big CD.
Let's address the negatives one by one:
- In the past, I considered swapping out STS, in order to delay its ICD by a bit. VVhile this approach may work with the majority of yellow abilities during Berserk, it would definitely fail to buff Rip since it's cast at the very end. STS at start is just obligatory because we get to snapshot two Rakes and Rip. Same thing goes to DBVV and Hysteria, which can buff two Rips. Delaying those would result in us snapshotting only one Rip, which would be detrimental to our dps.
- Although we're a lot more productive with our CPs during Berserk, we still cannot afford to cast FB because we would need the CPs for the other two finishers. That is unless we get 2+ CCs during Berserk, in which case we can bite the boss prior to SR. However, there's an issue with this play - we would be entirely dependant on RNG to provide us with the necessary amount of CCs. Like, let's compare TF-Berserk feat. the pre-pull rotation to what we're used to, i.e. unbuffed Mangle at start -> SR ->... -> Rip + refresh on SR during Berserk:
Since in the normal rotation we apply Rip at the beginning of Berserk, we have plenty of time to monitor the number of CCs from our AAs and to decide whether we should follow it up with SR or with FB. In the pre-pull rotation, we don't have that opportunity. The only optimal timing for FB is at the start, and we don't know whether RNG would bless us with 2+ CCs down the line, so it's a HUUUUUUUUGE gamble to cast FB.- Since we cast only one GotVV prior to Berserk, we cannot afford to swap idols. Idol of the Crying Moon needs to be present during Berserk, so that we don't lose the 220 Agility buff. This means that the only "viable" flowershifting variation is the one with /stopattack. I'd like to mention that a person could theoretically begin the fight with VVorship (like, imagine getting 220 Agility prior to engaging the boss and equipping Idol of VVorship), which he would then swap back to Crying Moon, but that requires a lot of micromanagement non-sense and is affected by my next argument:
- Despite what I wrote above, how we'll actually play depends on what RNG has in store for us between 5) and 10). It could give us a CC when we're planning to use TF, in which case we wouldn't follow it up with GotVV because we'd have too much energy. VVe'd need to go Shred w/ the CC -> Shred -> TF + Shred -> GotVV, which would leave us with less energy prior to Berserk and force us to stay idle for longer. This, by itself, would increase the second Rake's downtime and waste more STS & Hysteria value. In other words, delaying Berserk just for the sake of having an early TF would lead to unreliable/inconsistent openers.
Berserk-TF
(0 CCs during Berserk)
Spoiler:Show
(1 CC during Berserk)
Spoiler:Show
(2 CCs during Berserk)
Spoiler:Show
(3 CCs during Berserk w/o FB)
Spoiler:Show
(3 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)
Spoiler:Show
comparing 3 CCs w/o Berserk vs w/ it
Commentary:Spoiler:Show
On the other side of the spectrum, Berserk-TF is able to include FB even in the presence of 0-1 CC all thanks to TF after Berserk. Moreover, the player has time to monitor the number of his CCs. If he gets at least 3, FB mid-Berserk is possible, and a there's also the possibility to cast one extra 2-3 seconds before Berserk ends with 18-24 energy (though, admittedly, that excludes the outcome of the player getting more CCs from AAs and/or energy from a resto druid; if the timing of Berserk is suboptimal for a second bite, you can always refresh SR instead). Since the cat player uses Berserk after the first Rake, i.e. there's no idle time, the opener offers consistency in the context of the pre-pull rotation.
Imho TF-Berserk is still a viable option, but only when the player can obtain an additional TF throughout the course of the boss fight.
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Forum Veteran
Edited: 2 Weeks Ago Reason: 1xFB and not two regarding Berserk-TF w/ 3 CCs
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Forum Veteran
ONE'S MAN'S TRASH IS ANOTHER MAN'S TREASURE
Thank you, mep2481, for informing me about Crystal Yield.
I. Preface
This post was inspired by these videos:
Huge props to that guy for recording himself and for discussing weird items/interactions (like, the first video I watched from his channel was about the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725 being able to cast the Squawk more consistently under certain conditions - something which is not true on warmane, but still an interesting video nevertheless). I won't cover all of his topics, rather just the ones I found interesting.
II. AP increase from Crystal of Ferocity & Scourgebane Draught
- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=23989 (10 AP increase for Alliance cats)
- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22779 (30 AP increase for Horde cats but only against undead)
As you can see here, I used a cheap Battle Elixir, and the 30 AP buff didn't overwrite it. Just for comparison:
ICC and RS gear w/o those buffs:
VVith 10 extra AP (~10 dps increase):
VVith 30 extra AP against undead (~30 dps increase):
Ye, it's not much, but it's free, i.e. it doesn't require a specific set-up. The bad thing about this item, at least https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22779, is that you need to collect a lot of https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22641 - 10 for ONLY ONE CONSUMABLE. The good news are that they can be sold on the AH, but as I'm writing this post one 10-stack cost almost 200g. Yikes. The good thing is that the zone "Ghostlands" is filled with undead mobs that drop the quest items:
Faction swapping might allow the player to get both AP buffs on one character, but FYI one-way faction change costs 30 points which is around a whole month of collecting daily points. I'm not willing to test it, sorry.
III. Swing timer reset from Oil of Immolation
https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=8956 doesn't reset the swing timer:
Pity. I had an idea that we could use it alongside the GotVV-shift as an alternative way to reset our swing timer after attacking with Oathbinder in case we don't want to remove the Crying Moon idol. However, it seems that this interaction is only possible in Classic VVrath - just like the Snakeweaving one. So, in other words only weapon/idol swapping can reset the swing timer on warmane. Though, the oil does trigger a long GCD, which is imho the bigger reason why no one should use it in a raid.
IV. Eskhandar's Claws
I won't test this because https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=18202 drops from a world boss, which is easily contested, and feral druids cannot dual-wield fists. Anyway, Simonize mentioned the possibility of summoning https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=14306 which could presumably reduce the boss's armour for 1600 for a short period of time (12 seconds). The challenge is to actually summon it because it has 1% chance to pop-up from a critical strike. Despite being fully aware of how unlikely it is to summon it and suspecting that no one will actually do it, I'd like to mention that this would have had nice synergies with the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113 idea in the previous post. Imagine having a shaman or a rogue attack the mech and being able to summon the Spirit. Since it would last for 2 mins, it would survive the majority of the boss fight. Ah, a man can only dream.
Btw, speaking of armour reduction, I tested https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=11565 a few months ago because mep2481 recommended it to me. It shares the same CD as a regular Saronite bomb, but it can provide more damage. According to Simonize, it offered 0.6% damage increase. On its own, it doesn't sound big but if we observe the AA damage for one minute and assume 0.7 att speed and 3500 damage from AAs, then the damage increase would be:
(60/0.7)*3500*0.006 = 1800
This is more than what we would get from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41119. According to the feral simcraft, using this would increase the cat's dps by around 50:
Saronite bomb instead of Crystal Yield in a 2-min fight:
Crystal Yield instead of Saronite bomb in a 2-min fight:
However, this wasn't the reason for bringing up this item here. I just wanted to make a smooth transition to what I'm about to say next. Since I didn't have the opportunity to talk about it in previous posts, I want to mention something I've noticed in the past:
Please go to 0:23-0:25. The buff missed because it's based on spell-hit:
Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=15235
Keep this in mind if you want to use it. Also, this:
0:33-0:35 The crystal yield debuff vanished. Dunno if it was my bad UI playing tricks on me or if someone else tried to cast this debuff, but examining this weird interaction is on my to-do list.Edited: December 11, 2023 Reason: minor edit
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Forum Veteran
Thanks for the feedback, however it was stated that Crystal Yield CAN stack with armour% reducing effects, since https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=15235 removes a flat amount of armour from the boss. This interaction was tested by another warmane user, who informed me about it in the first place. He told me that he and his fwar buddy had tested it on a dummy, and Sunder Armour was able to stack with Crystal Yield.
You can also see it in the video above. Check 2:35. You can see both FFF and Sunder being present.
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Forum Veteran
Quite the contrary. If you have proof that this interaction wasn't possible in Retail VVotlk (2008-2010), then please share the links here or DM me. I'd gladly make a bug report if this interaction was indeed not possible in the original game.
If, however, you have bug reports concerning other private servers, then the bug report might not be considered valid.
Anyway, thanks for bringing up this topic. I'll look more into it the following days!
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Forum Veteran
Quick question if I may?
Doesn't https://tbc.cavernoftime.com/spell=11597 also remove a flat amount of armour in TBC?
I think we need to consider the context of the time, when that comment was written. According to wowhead:
Source: https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=11597/sunder-armor
Sunder Armour removed a flat amount in TBC, and of course it would overwrite Crystal Yield. However, in VVotLK it reduces the armour by certain%, so those two things are mechanically different. So, no, I don't think it's a bug, but I'll test the interaction once again and see if Sunder Armour is able to stack with Crystal Yield. Just a bit busy rn. Thanks for giving me food for thought!
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Forum Veteran
Good point.FF is flat armor reduction as well in TBC, but they DO stack. The same way FF and Sunder effects stack on WotLK, both being Resistance % (Physical) auras.
Honestly, this is an interesting interpretation.Or the effect can just simply fall into the category of major armor reduction debuffs and not being overwritten / taken into accountant when such "upgrade" happens here which makes more sense to me;
Minor: FF / Sting / CoW
Major: AS (BM) / Expose Armor / Sunder Armor
I think I found a similar thread:And not a new one, since there is 2017 Fury guide here, encouraging you to use the same crystal.
Source: https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...=298787&page=2
The users commented how the armour constant was bugged, which also made stuff like Shattering Throw useless. There was a bug report, which fixed the armour constants, which is mby the reason why Crystal Yield can now stack with both Sunder and FFF {I want to test it for myself too}.
Really thanks for your input, but I am not really convinced that this is a bug. Had there been VVotLK patch notes or user comments on wowhead from that era confirming that both effects cannot stack, I would have agreed with you. If you want to report it as a bug, I'd honestly encourage you to do it. I'm thinking of checking some old EJ threads. Hopefully, I might find some discussions there.I don't know what the exact logic behind the stacking and/or overwriting effects is and it's not my job to know that, but my guess is that it's something related to the spell' flags which prioritizes the sunder effect over crystal'.
Only dev who's familiar how things work in the background can tell you who's right, but that's a bug for me.Edited: December 10, 2023 Reason: minor edit
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Forum Veteran
Ok, in case someone is curious, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=11565 does stack with FFF and Sunder Armour:
First 30 seconds w/o Crystal Yield
- Lacerate (initial attack, non-crit) = 141
- Lacerate (initial attack, crit) = 290
Remaining seconds w/ Crystal Yield
- Lacerate (initial attack, non-crit) = 142
- Lacerate (initial attack, crit) = 292
If we look at the bonus crit damage, the number is 2. VVe can observe it as a 0.7% damage increase, which is on par with what I said a few posts above.
The reason why I decided to use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48568 is because its damage is based on our AP, i.e. it deals binary damage. All Arp-related* cat abilities produce damage from a specific FRAME, which wouldn't have showed clear tendencies had I used one of them instead.
Inb4 someone comes here and tells me that Lacerate is a bleed - the second effect is, but the initial attack is not considered a bleed.
Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48568
So, now I just need to find more information as to why the debuff vanished during the DBS fight at 0:33-0:35:
This will be my task when I start raiding again.
No mention of Crystal Yield in these feral druid threads:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101108..._dps_rotation/
https://web.archive.org/web/20110101...ps_discussion/Edited: December 10, 2023 Reason: minor edit
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Forum Veteran
FOLLOVV-UP POST
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)
Please ignore this post since there isn't anything worth reading here imho (or mby someone could find the second section somewhat interesting). Most of the conclusions here are "it's not practical", "it doesn't work", and "it's unreliable". I just wanted to write another comment, so that I don't shove too much information in the original post and make it more complicated and reader-unfriendly than it needs to be. The contents of this post are mostly for me, so that I can reference specific mechanics/interactions in the future. kthx
Speaking of not working, the 110G is no longer attackable. Yeah...
I. More experiments with the 110G repair bot (NO LONGER VVORKS)
One thing I forgot to test on the 110G was whether or not it's affected by https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506. The answer is - it IS:
Rooting the mech
Successful Mind Control
Can be healed
Observations:
- the 110 bot can be Mind Controlled thanks to https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506:
-> this allows us to heal it with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 and with regular HoTs;
-> direct healing effects like the one from Healing Touch and Regrowth don't work;
-> the person controlling the mech still enters combat.
- the person healing the bot doesn't enter combat AS LONG AS he doesn't buff/heal the Mind Controller.
Pros:
- Using https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 can heal the mech, allowing it to soak more damage;
- This allows the players to use the same mech and not invest extra resources in summoning another one;
-> https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 is really cheap, and some players will sell it cheaper than the cost of the individual mats.
Cons:
- Since the Mind Controlling player enters combat, he can only swap out https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506 after the mech dies.
- The Mind Control effect is not guaranteed.
Commentary:
If you ask me, the observed interaction between the 110G bot, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506, and healing effects is pure meme and not in the funny way.
The problem comes from the fact that even when the mech is mind controlled, the player still enters combat which prevents him from unequipping https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506. This is bad because he will be able to remove this ****ty trinket only after the 110G bot dies, which would happen 5-10 seconds before the boss encounter begins. If the player wants to re-equip his actual trinket with a 45-sec ICD, it will be inactive during the burst phase (= he will be at a disadvantage).
VVorth mentioning is that there is a possible workaround - if the Mind Controller in question is a NE (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=62199) or a hunter (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=5384), then during the "invisibility" frames he can equip back his normal trinket. However, this requires a lot of set-up for a minor gain, since a simpler solution would be to just summon another mech. This coupled with the fact that the MC is not guaranteed makes this manoeuvre absolutely pointless.
II. Another potential alternative
VVhile searching for an alternative to both the pinata and the 110G mechs, I remembered that warlocks could summon a hostile demon "Doomguard" from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867 that could be attacked by everyone. This inspired me to test the mechanics surrounding the aforementioned spell and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540. Here are my personal findings:
Doomguard from Ritual of Doom
Dismissing it
CoD not working on pets
Doomguard from Curse of Doom and banishing it
Attacking it for CPs
Enslaving it and testing its "life expectency"
Enslaving it and running far away from its initial summoning spot OUTSIDE A RAID INSTANCE
Enslaving it and running far away from its initial summoning spot IN A RAID INSTANCE
Enslaving it and trying to enter a raid instance
Enslaving it and using the teleporter in ICC
Entering a diff. zone with the enslaved Doomguard
Travelling in the same zone with the enslaved Doomguard
Observations:Spoiler:Show
- the Doomguard summoned from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540 is always considered a pet and immediately despawns once the warlock dismisses it;
- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867 summons a Doomguard only when the spell is used on a 72+lvl mob, and the latter dies from the debuff;
- CoD cannot be used on player pets;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD is always hostile;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD will despawn within 15 seconds when out of combat (this includes time spent while evading as well);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD doesn't lose aggro if the warlock travels long distances VVITHIN A RAID INSTANCE;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can live for at least 20 mins (I didn't bother to test it longer than that);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD has around 16k HP;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD will break free from the warlock's grasp if the warlock enters a raid instance/goes to a different zone;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can bleed and thus can be a good target for our "Lacerate & Crying Moon" combo;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be banished, but that doesn't remove the person's aggro;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be enslaved, and that does remove the person's aggro. The warlock can then dismiss it, allowing him and his teammates to attack it;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be enslaved and BUFFED/HEALED from teammates. If the warlock player dismisses it, the demon retains those effects;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be DoT'ted and enslaved immediately afterwards. The demon retains those negative effects. Also, Dooming the Doomguard is possible (It's possible, but it doesn't serve any purpose.);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD doesn't teleport to the warlock's location if the player uses one of the ICC teleports.
Pros in comparison to the Pinata:
- using Doomguard as a punching bag is the cheapest alternative, as it doesn't cost any resources (Some warlocks might complain about having to spend soul shards every time they enslave the Doomguard and then re-summon their regular pet, but we shouldn't pay attention to cross-dressers.);
- unlike the pinata, its original HP is 16k and can even be buffed while enslaved, so that it can soak more damage. On top of that, people can put HoTs on the demon and give it a shield before the warlock dismisses it.
Cons in comparison to the Pinata:
- solo players/minmaxers cannot summon the Doomguard by themselves - if they want to benefit from this "punching bag" variant, their raid group needs to be involved in the process;
- fulfilling the CoD's summoning condition requires a set-up to begin with. The warlock needs to use the spell on an already existing mob in order to summon the Doomguard;
-> the raid group needs to pay extra attention to the mob's HP, so that it doesn't die prematurely from unwanted abilities;
-> after a wipe, there's no redo in case players have cleared the trash prior to the current boss.
- Ferals and rogues cannot use the Doomguard the same way they use the Pinata in RS (i.e. attacking the mech and leaving the instance in order to lose all of your aggro) because the Doomguard will disappear when out of combat for 15 seconds.
Commentary:
It's really unfortunate that https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540 doesn't summon a hostile Doomguard like it did at the end of TBC:
This would have been the best way to generate a pre-pull punching bag, as it would have required the least amount of resources to summon the Doomguard, and the requirements for summoning it could easily have been met. Oh well...
Anyway, right now the only way to summon an attackable Doomguard is by fulfilling the condition of CoD. This is easier said than done, as most of the mobs in a raid instance are elites with huge chunks of HP. If all raid members are tasked to clear the trash, other people's DoTs/AoE abilities might prevent CoD from doing its thing. That said, there is an obvious workaround for that as well. You see, if people just smack a random mob with normal attacks and drop its HP low enough, so that CoD could finish it off, I can definitely see how Doomguard could be summoned more consistently. Since CoD has a 1-min duration, it would just take a bit longer than usual to kill the targeted mob, but it won't prolong the whole raid by THAT much.
Then again, we need to ask ourselves whom this playstyle would actually benefit? It's definitely not going to be used in speed runs or in casual raids for obvious reasons. I think that in progression raids people might find summoning the Doomguard and the whole pre-pull rotation too much of a hassle and would feel discouraged to adapt it in their runs after a few fail attempts. This leaves us with hardcore guilds where people care about parsing. Even then, I wonder if this manoeuvre would be considered convenient enough in order to become a staple in a grun. This is why I consider it theoretically possible but in reality impractical/situational.
For the sake of this theorycraft, let's assume that the warlock does manage to summon the Doomguard. That player then needs to enslave it, which would cost them a Soul Shard. This, however, allows the players to reposition the Doomguard whenever and wherever they want w/o having to deal with aggro issues in the process, so they can bring it prior to a boss and eat/drink/buff themselves in peace. During the pull timer, the warlock just needs to dismiss it and resummon his regular pet. This, of course, would cost them another Soul Shard, but those shards are free and can be generated with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47855 anyway.
Basically, here's how people can use the Doomguard:
"Kova, wouldn't it be easier to just attack a random mob before a boss pull?"1) Choose a mob to be a host for a Doomguard.
2) Have a warlock (or all warlocks???) put CoD on it.
3) Lower its HP in range of CoD's damage, but don't kill it.
-> Don't put DoTs in order to ensure the host's safety.
4) VVhen the host pops, make sure not to kill the Doomguard.
5) A warlock casts Enslave Demon on it.
6) Kill the trash prior to your current boss and eat/drink/buff yourselves.
7) Set a pull timer and swap your trinkets. Acknowledge their ICDs.
8) The warlock controlling the Doomguard needs to dismiss it. Afterwards, he can summon his usual demon again.
9) Slowly attack the Doomguard and get as much value from it as possible.
10) 5-10 seconds before the pull timer ends, kill it.
11) 1 second prior to engaging the boss, pre-pot with Potion of Speed or wtv.
12) Engage the boss.
13) Repeat for the next boss encounter.
I suspect that someone has already asked themselves this question, to which I will say "Yes and no". You see, it really depends on the type of trash prior to a boss fight. For example, you can easily treat https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=37038 or https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=37023 as punching bags before engaging Fester/Rot/PP because they are solitary NPCs and don't present any danger to the tank. The whole group just needs to eat, drink, and set an early pull timer, during which players swap trinkets, kill the aforementioned mobs, and quickly move in and engage the respective boss. In other scenarios, having something to summon like a Doomguard would be a better option in case:
a) there aren't any trash mobs prior to the boss or are already killed before the boss arrives (DBS, Sindragosa);
b) the nearest mobs are far away (Algalon);
c) the mobs are in packs and cannot be separated w/o pulling everything (Ignis, XT, General Vezax);
d) the mobs are too strong and cannot be used as ordinary punching bags (Sentinels prior to Auriaya, Faceless mobs near General Vezax)
"Kova, could there be another cheap alternative to the Pinata beside the Doomguard?"
I sincerely hope so, but I personally couldn't find anything. Like, I visited the following wowhead sites:
https://www.wowhead.com/classic/items
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/items
https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/items
and used the database tool to search for items with the Effect Text "summon", "place", "call":
but most of them either summoned a friendly "guardian" or the summoning condition for a hostile mob required the player to be in a specific area. There were two items I found with no clear mention of a such requirement in their tooltips - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=38324 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=30479 - but they still didn't work. VVorth mentioning is that https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=27388 can summon a hostile mob as well, but for obvious reasons (2-day CD, the effect is based on RNG) it's not a good substitute for the Doomguard.
III. Swapping out weapons with temporary buffs while dps-ing the punching bag
I got inspiration to try out weapons with "Chance on hit" effects after stumbling upon this interesting specimen https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=13393. Before I say anything else, I'd like to clarify that weapons with this mechanic don't work in feral forms - if a druid player wants to benefit from them, he needs to be in neutral form. Unfortunately, even with this knowledge I smacked target dummies and low-level mobs with the Malon mace to no avail. The weapon didn't proc at all. I thought it might be bugged, so I bought https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=9423 from the AH and decided to test whether swapping out weapons with "Chance on hit" proc effects would allow me to retain both buffs. The answer is:
Nope, it doesn't work. I assume I would have witnessed the same interaction with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=13393 had I managed to get its proc. Tbh, I was aware of this being the case for https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=9449, but since the latter mace has an "on-use" effect, I thought I should test the behaviour of "Chance on hit" weapons as well. Then I remembered another interesting interaction, which Nap brought to my attention last year. Swapping out weapons with different enchantments (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=43987 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=44493) would possibly allow the player to have both at the same time. I tested it myself, and:
It worked. So, on theory we could dps the Pinata/the Doomguard with a weapon having the Black Magic enchant, get the "250 Haste rating" buff, kill the punching bag, swap to our regular weapon with Berserking and engage the boss. However, I consider this manoeuvre non-viable because BM's duration is too short to actually matter especially if the punching bag is killed 10 seconds prior to the player engaging the boss. In this train of thought I should mention that it's also possible to get two Berserking buffs at start if we use some random weapon containing this enchantment and switch to Oathbinder afterwards:
I still don't think it's worth the hassle because if we get the first Berserking 10 seconds before we actually engage the boss, then it would only have 5 seconds duration during the burst phase, which is not rly exciting. Something, which I did find interesting, was that DKs can use a weapon with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=53341 while attacking the punching bag, which would allow them to keep it for later. Since that buff lasts 30 seconds, I definitely see a reason why someone would consider this trick. Once they obtain it, they can revert to their main weapons with the BiS runes:
But enough with the off-topic subjects - after all, isn't this supposed to be a cat-related thread? There's one more thing I'd like to discuss before I end this post:
IV. Another attempt at figuring out TF-Berserk
Last month, I proposed the following opener for TF-Berserk:
I considered this safer than the version with the slightly delayed Berserk because I looked at STS's uptime as the main factor. However, this made me oblivious to the possibility of being able to gather CPs for FB after (4) Rip, which would allow the player to compensate the lost value from STS. Because of this, I'll acknowledge it here. I came up with these three variations:0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [65 energy + 10 from GCD]
3) Shred [33 energy + 10 from GCD]
4) Rip [23 energy + 10 from GCD] 21 sec Rip
5) TF + Berserk [100 energy] 14 seconds remaining 20 sec Rip
6) Shred [89 energy] 13 seconds remaining
7) Shred [78 energy] 12 seconds remaining
8) Shred [67 energy] 11 seconds remaining
9) Shred [56 energy] 10 seconds remaining
10) Shred [45 energy] 9 seconds remaining
11) Rake [37 energy] 8 seconds remaining
12) Shred [26 energy] 7 seconds remaining
13) Shred [15 energy] 6 seconds remaining
14) SR [12 energy] 5 seconds remaining
wait almost 1 second 4.1 seconds remaining
15) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 3.1 seconds remaining
wait around 1 second 2 seconds remaining
16) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 1 second remaining
// 21-15 = 6 seconds remaining of Rip duration after Berserk
=> Rake after Berserk + mby a GotVV for guaranteed 5 CPs -> Rip
//24 - 13 = 11 seconds remaining of SR duration when it's refreshed at 14)
TF is used right before Berserk (Var. A)
TF is used after Rip followed by a GotVV-shift into Rake (Var. B)Spoiler:Show
TF is used after Rip followed by a GotVV-shift into Shred (Var. C)Spoiler:Show
Before I discuss them in more detail, I want to set the background:Spoiler:Show
(My current gear with full buffs and no DBVV and STS procs)
If we assume that the Berserk phases consist of the same amount and type of abilities across all aforementioned versions of the TF-Berserk opener, and there's no downtime for Rip and SR, then we can view every wasted second of STS as potential 1,624.3 damage loss. If we choose to delay Berserk in order to cast FB after the initial Rip, then we would inevitably have to be idle and passively AA the boss, so that we pool enough energy for Berserk. However, by casting FB we would utilise our CPs which would normally have been wasted (check the first TF-Berserk sequence in this section). This means we can compare the damage loss from the wasted STS proc with the damage gain from the CPs that were used on FB. If the player performs the GotVV-shift, I'll assume two AAs are sacrificed in the process. I'm not going to take into account the damage loss of the AAs themselves, rather only the wasted STS buff with Hysteria.- Shred (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 18,114.38
- Shred (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 1,624.3
- 5CP FB (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 33,064.73
- 5CPs (value based on 5CP FB minus 35/42 Shred dmg) = 17,969.41
- 5CP FB (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 3,051.36
- 4CP FB (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 26,787.71
- 4CPs (value based on 4CP FB minus 35/42 Shred dmg) = 11,692.39
- 4CP FB (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 2,441.1
- Rake (one tick, average, no Hysteria and no STS) = 5,876.09
- AA (average, ONLY STS damage enhanced by Hysteria) = 538.87
Now, let's go back to each variation and acknowledge the damage loss from STS. To make things a bit easier, I'll assume that the cat player gets a CC proc within the first 6 seconds. Tbh, this is not impossible taking into consideration all haste buffs and Bloodlust. Moreover, the cat player can use Barkskin and increase the likelihood of obtaining said proc.
Var. A
Var. BSpoiler:Show
Var. CSpoiler:Show
Commentary:Spoiler:Show
I think I should start with the obvious things and cover the headscratchers as I go.
Delaying Berserk past the 15th second mark is a misplay in boss encounters like DBS because we waste DBVV and Hysteria uptime (Var. C). Even if using a CC proc on a Rake whilst having 0-1 CPs is usually a misplay, in Var. B this is the lesser evil. This allows the player to continue pooling energy for Berserk while maintaining Rake's uptime.
Another obvious thing is that Var. A is very similar to my initial idea, aka:
Both variations pop TF right before Berserk. Imho, deciding between both of them depends on whether or not the player obtains a CC proc at start and is able to generate 4 CPs for FB. If he doesn't, and he wants to play it safe, or he doesn't want to perform the GotVV-shift, he can follow the aforementioned pattern. If he does manage to get a CC and 4 CPs, he can transition to Var. A.0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [65 energy + 10 from GCD]
3) Shred [33 energy + 10 from GCD]
4) Rip [23 energy + 10 from GCD] 21 sec Rip
5) TF + Berserk [100 energy] 14 seconds remaining 20 sec Rip
Comparing Var. A to Var. B is a bit tricky because the latter has the possibility to inflict a FB at the end of Berserk but is very susceptible to RNG prior to popping the big CD. Any sudden CCs can disrupt the player's plans and force him to delay the GotVV-shift or even ignore it. The latter is not a bad thing per se, as long as the CC is used on Rake, but let's say the player gets a CC proc right after FB. Is he going to hold onto it just for Rake and risk overwriting the CC from a "lucky" AA? No, he would use it on Shred and then follow it up with Rake, in which he'd invest energy and thus inevitably recreate the same scenario as in Var. C.
This is why imho when it comes to TF-Berserk in the context of a pre-pull Pinata, the opener should either look like this:
or this:0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle
2) Rake
3) Shred
4) Rip
5) TF + Berserk
depending on the person's luck at start.0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle
2) Rake
3) Shred
4) Rip
5) Shred
6) Shred
7) FB
8) TF+ Berserk
I'd like to point out once again just how elegant and reliable Berserk-TF really is. It doesn't create any problems and instead offers solutions when SR and Rip are synced after Berserk. Imho, TF-Berserk would be more suitable for Classic VVrath with the FFF glyph.Edited: August 27, 2024 Reason: changed the title of the main post
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Forum Veteran
FINAL VVORDS?
It's August 2019, and I'm nostalgic for VVoVV. I join warmane and roll as a feral cat on Icecrown, determined to kill the LK and obtain the "Kingslayer" title. In October, I join <Storm>. I meet a lot of knowledgeable players that help me get firsthand experience in ICC HC. I try my best, though still do a couple of mistakes, from which a very loud Romanian girl gets annoyed. VVanting to perform better, I whisper to myself the tactics for each and every boss, but instead I sit there incapacitated, as she widens her mouth and starts screeching like a harpy: "VVHY DIDN'T YOU INNERVATE ME?" A few months later, I'm invited to the main group. VVe down Halion on HC for the first time, a giant milestone for the guild. VVe gather around and screenshot the moment. It is 24.01.2020 - I get my first LoD kill, and I'm not considered a VVoVV virgin anymore. Two months later, the accident awaits me. The guild declares its official retirement. A token raid is held. In it, the GM rage quits after multiple wipes from the frost orbs on the LK.
It is the 29th of March, 2020. Proterean announces the release of Frostmourne. As I join the realm, I begin to integrate spamming GotVV more frequently in my gameplay. One year later, I decide to publish this idea here. Some random bloke writes a post on discord. In it, he calls this thread autistic. I'm not sure if I know what he means.
It is August 2022, 1.5 months into Ulduar. My current guild <TFL> is faced with the challenging task to form a full run and resorts to pugging the remaining spots. As a result, the quality of the raid drops immensely. Seeing that people screw up the bombs on XT and even the defensive CDs on Iron Council despite an exploit, the GM bursts into intoxicating trash talking. After each inaudible swear word in Croatian, he spits out the gentler epithet "donkeys" - like a signature move. Classic VVrath releases, and my guild decides to move there, while I do not. I prefer the stillness here. I'm currently taking a break, but I might return ... some day...
Yeah, I'm taking a break from VVoVV for an indefinite amount of time... again... Back in September of 2023, I played for a bit with <Frenzied Flame>, and I honestly had fun reliving the old memories in ICC and RS. I could see myself returning once again because I've always enjoyed the 3.3.5 environment. Right now, I just prefer other games a lot more - like, when I return exhausted from work, a 25-man raid feels like yet another chore. I'm also taking a break from feral theorycrafting.Edited: January 12, 2024 Reason: obvious humour should be obvious; don't get offended kthx
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Forum Veteran
INPUT SNAPSHOTTING A DOT BEFORE A BUFF EXPIRES
Disclaimer: This post won't touch upon the general knowledge of snapshotting, i.e. that refreshing a DoT before a buff expires would allow the player to benefit from the latter. Instead, it's going to concentrate on the scenario where the player "casts" the DoT ability right before the buff expires and gets the DoT effect afterwards. I suspect that this topic might be old hat for some of you here, but I wanted to express my thoughts nonetheless.
Apologies to the warmane mods for necroing this thread (once again).
The inspiration behind writing my thoughts on this topic was my guild's ICC raid last Sunday, more specifically the DBS fight because this was the only encounter I recorded that day. Please check what happened in the time frame 1:30-1:31:
The moment SR expired, Rake's ticking DoT applied to the boss. In the following pic, you can observe this sequence more clearly:
Source
(Rake's DoT and SR's expiration occurred at 1:22:224)
As a result, this happened:
Prior to SR expiring
Afterwards
In both scenarios, Rake inflicted 6k crit damage, meaning that Rake had successfully snapshotted SR's buff a few milliseconds before expiring. However, this wasn't enough for me because both SR's expiration and Rake's DoT's registration occurred at the same time. I wanted to see what would happen if I cast Rake before SR expired and get its DoT effect afterwards. So, I went to the target dummy and recorded myself again:
Please check what happened in the time frame 0:54-0:56 - I tried using Rake 0.1 second before SR expired. Here are the logs:Spoiler:Show
As a result, this happened:6/26 05:05:36.374 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1
6/26 05:05:36.453 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,0 xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1,1146,0,1,0,0,0,1,n il,nil
6/26 05:05:36.453 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,16870,"Cl earcasting",0x8,BUFF
6/26 05:05:36.453 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,52610,"Sa vage Roar",0x1,BUFF
6/26 05:05:36.471 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1,DEBUFF
Prior to SR expiring
Afterwards
In both scenarios, Rake inflicted 3k crit damage, meaning that Rake had successfully snapshotted SR's buff a few milliseconds before expiring. It didn't matter that Rake's effect registered after SR's expiration - the input was the key factor here.
I wanted to repeat this scenario and check whether I would get the same results. Please check the time frame 1:27-1:29. Here are the logs:
As a result, this happened:6/26 05:06:09.555 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1
6/26 05:06:09.573 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,52610,"Sa vage Roar",0x1,BUFF
6/26 05:06:09.701 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,0 xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1,1146,0,1,0,0,0,1,n il,nil
6/26 05:06:09.701 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511,16870,"Cl earcasting",0x8,BUFF
6/26 05:06:09.701 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0 x511,0xF1300079AA005051,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,48574,"Rake",0x1,DEBUFF
Prior to SR expiring
Afterwards
Here, the second Rake did less damage despite me making sure to cast it before SR expired. It seems that determining the damage of an ability is its own separate event, which is unaffected by the input from the player. The game requires a bit of time to process information and cannot follow the sequence of events strictly. Also, that time of processing information is not consistent. In the first scenario, the time required to calculate the damage after Rake was cast was 0.079s, whereas in the second scenario - 0.146s.
VVhat I can conclude from this experiment is that applying a DoT a few milliseconds before a certain buff expires won't always snapshot the effect. The player needs to provide the game with more time to process the information, otherwise the results would be undesirable.Edited: June 26, 2024 Reason: Added a link to UWU logs + minor edits
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Forum Veteran
FOLLOVV-UP POST
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)
Disclaimer: If it wasn't clear enough from the initial post, the damage we'd gain from the following suggestions is relatively small.
Thank you, Spreang, for informing me about the synergy between the summon from Ritual of Summoning and the mage portals.
I. Preface
As I'm writing this post, the only mobs we can summon in order to generate CPs prior to a boss encounter remain https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780, Doomguard from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=27388 (at least, those are the only examples I'm currently aware of). Even though we can no longer use the 110G bot to our advantage, the clip I recorded in the past managed to highlight how we can retain our CPs even if we leave the instance and re-enter it.
For reference:
Outside of raid instances, after aggro-ing a hostile creature and running away to a certain distance the enemy stops chasing us and instead goes back to its original position. This behaviour is called leashing. However, when we're inside a party or raid instance, it doesn't matter how far we run away because any pulled mob continues to chase us until either we or they die. VVhat we can observe in this video is a genuine workaround for that exact problem as per wowpedia:
I decided to play with this idea again and use enemies from the instance as "punching bags". Even though the easiest and the safest approach would be to summon the pinata and to attack it for CPs, not many people have access to it or desire to purchase it from the store. This was the reason why I decided to avoid using it in my recent experiments.Leash
1) Overview
As a verb, this is what it's called when a mob suddenly clears its aggro list, switches to Evade mode and runs quickly back to its spawn point, where it resets.
2) Overland
Leashing is the primary means for players escaping combat. From an early level, all players learn that if you run from a mob in one direction for long enough, the mob will break off combat and reset.
3) Instances
Non-boss mobs in instances generally do not leash. The only way to escape them is to exit the instance, or to use an aggro-clearing ability like the hunter's Feign Death] Some instances however have spots that cannot be pathed to by NPCs. You can identify such a location by attempting to attack an NPC while standing at it; if the NPC faces you but evades, the NPC cannot get to the location.
In the next paragraphs, you'll find my contemplations on the situation in RS and ICC.
II. Ruby Sanctum (31.08.2024 update)
This instance offers the simplest solution to the whole "punching bag" conundrum, as both the trash mobs and Halion are stationed near the entrance. This allows us to attack any elite dragonkin for CPs and cast SR in close proximity of the boss. However, when I say "simple", I don't actually mean easy because elite mobs hit like a truck, and they usually stay in groups, so pulling one would inevitably pull the rest as well. Knowing all of this, the go-to strategy here would be to separate the mobs, get CPs on one of them ASAP and GTFO from the instance like so:
As you can see in the clip above, I was able to immobilise one of them by using https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=66070, I stunned the other with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=8983, got 5 CPs and popped https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=55004 in order to escape to safety. I purposely asked another person to accompany me and to stay idle in order to show you that only the initiator(s) is (are) affected by the mobs' aggro.
I found the Charscale Invokers to be perfect candidates for this trick, as they dealt the least physical damage in comparison to the other dragonkin (with the only exception being the Charscale Elites, but more about them later) and they were located near the entrance. Like, you can compare the melee damage of the Charscale Invokers to that of the Charscale Assaulters and the Charscale Commanders, and see what I mean + the latter enemies have additional abilities that boost their damage, whereas the spells of the Invokers can easily be outranged and/or LoS'd.
Let's assume that we convince our raid group to leave one Invoker undisturbed when we clear the trash. In that case, we can use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=49803 in order to stun the mob, which not only allows us to save Bash for later and thus increase our likelihood of surviving their attacks, but as an added bonus it also generates CPs, bringing us one step closer to reaching the maximum amount. Here's what I have in mind:
VVe can separate them by pulling the Charscale Assaulter with FFF. The trick is to do it when he's far away from one of the Invokers but close to the other one:
This means that the cat player is encouraged to participate in clearing the trash, as he can manipulate which mob gets to live. Think of it as "earning your right" to have a free punching bag on Halion.
Now let's assume that the Charscale Assaulter is dead. In that case, aggro-ing one of the Invokers would inevitably pull the other. There is still a way to separate them, but it would require a bit of manoeuvering:
The reason why I did it like so was to "desynchronise" them. You see, when I pull one of the Invokers normally, the other closely follows suit. This is bad because when I exit the instance, both evade at the same time, and I'm back at square one. By doing what I did in the clip (i.e. rooting one of the Invokers, preferably the one closer to me, and playing "Ring around the Rosie" with the other), I shortened the "evading" phase of one of the Invokers, which allowed me to aggro it while the other was still returning to its original position. In a raid scenario, I would bring the aggro'd Invoker to the raid group, so that we could kill it and leave only one alive.
Now let's assume that the raid group has denied us from getting free CPs from the Invokers. In that case, we could attack the Charscale Elites and employ the same stunlock strategy as before:
In contrast to the previous examples, we don't need to do any shenanigans to separate the Elites, as attacking one doesn't aggro the other. In addition to this, they deal the least physical damage, they don't buff themselves, they don't have any ranged abilities, and they're very slow (if I stay in cat form, they can't reach me). In other words, once I leave their melee range, they become pretty much harmless. However, my issue with using that mob as a punching bag is its original position in the raid instance. Please take a look at this picture:
There are 2x2 packs of Charscale Elites in RS - two are positioned near the lake, while the rest stay near the tree. The problem with the latter, as you can see on the map, is that they're in close proximity to pretty much everything - two trash packs, the main boss, and the starting position of the raid group. This makes it very hard not to pull an additional enemy. If the cat player tries to go through the raid, I suspect that someone would be tempted to attack the Charscale Elite and ruin our setup. I tried circumventing this by casting https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=53312 on myself pre-emptively, but the bleed effect from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=49803 constantly disrupted the roots. Of course, the best Charscale Elite to attack would be the one near the lake, but people usually kill them on their way to the General.
Anyway, the good thing about the pre-pull SR is that it can be done right after the raid group kills the 3rd and final mini-boss. The feral druid can pull off this trick while the RL sets up the group and explains the tactics, so no time would be wasted. Unlike the pre-nerf 110G bot or the pinata, the elite mobs don't fade away, meaning that as long as the cat player doesn't die or log off, the CPs would stay on their target indefinitely.
Lastly, SR allows the player to cast it from a really long distance:
This is good because we don't need to face tank the trash mobs again in order to buff ourselves - we can be inside Halion's circle while getting ready to engage the main boss and cast SR 1-2 seconds prior to the pull for maximum efficiency like so:
(the purpose of this video is to showcase the first few seconds upon engaging the boss, please ignore the rest of the fight)
However, as perfect as this trick sounds, I should mention that w/o any tank items we can't reliably survive every single physical hit from the proposed mobs. Like, just watch how I got one-shot in this video. This is why I recommend asking others for help. If the tank agrees to assist you, he just needs to soak a few hits before you get 5CPs, after which both players need to leave the instance. Alternatively, a rogue can use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=30986 right before the punching bag enters your melee range. Since it would be stunned for 4 seconds, this would allow you to inflict 3-4 yellow attacks (with TF ofc) in order to reach 5 CPs. Speaking of rogues, they can also join you on this endeavour. If they can't gather 5 CPs when the mob is stunned, you can go in bear form and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=8983 it.
I'd like to finish this subsection by summarising all advantages and disadvantages of this theorycraft and expressing my personal opinion on it:
Pros:
- unlike the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 or the pre-nerfed https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113, you don't need to invest any resources in performing this trick (= it's free);
- unlike the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 or the pre-nerfed https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113, the mobs won't expire, so any CP you get on them will stay on your target indefinitely (unless you die or log off). This is also fantastic in case the RL tells the rest to ignore the pull timer (e.g. in case of a random disconnect or sth), which would have disrupted the setup of the previous theorycrafts;
- in contrast to the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867-theorycraft, the setup here is a lot simpler and faster to execute and could even be performed as a solo player. This won't waste others' time, as it can be done right after killing the 3rd mini-boss (i.e. while preparing for Halion);
- there's no need to swap trinkets or to attack the mobs while naked;
- since the cat player removes his threat after re-entering the instance, he can cast SR 1-2 seconds prior to the pull timer allowing him to utilise the (free) finisher with maximum efficiency. As an added bonus, SR won't consume the OoC proc, so the druid player can still cast GotVV 10-14 seconds prior to the pull in peace.
Cons:
- unlike the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 or the pre-nerfed https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113, the cat player is not guaranteed to survive a hit from the elite mobs in this instance. Help from other people might be necessary after all;
- the cat player cannot start the boss fight with 5/5 https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=71175 stacks from their Crying Moon idol.
Commentary:
Given how easy and fast it is to execute this manoeuvre, coupled with the fact that it's free, I deem this theorycraft to be practical.
III. Icecrown Citadel
Unlike RS, ICC was a real headscratcher for me. The biggest offenders were a) the inhabitants in the main hall, more specifically the friendly defenders who attacked any approaching hostile mob, and b) the location of the bosses. In this subsection, I'd like to analyse two possible ways of obtaining CPs.
A) Entrance-strat (31.08.2024 update)
In the past, I mistakenly suggested that we should kill the friendly NPCs near the entrance. Yes, it's still true that they ruthlessly annihilate any approaching hostile mob including the caster skeletons, aka our potential punching bags. HOVVEVER, it doesn't need to be this way - we can prevent this by rooting them on one place after obtaining 5 CPs:
This is obviously faster than my initial suggestion, as it doesn't require us to waste time pulling enemy mobs towards the friendly NPCs and waiting for the latter to die. The only mobs we need to take care of are the patrols in the first room, and they respawn after every 2 hours. Before the raid officially begins, people usually clear the middle path and free us of this burden.
31.08.2024 Update: I did some research and found out that the Servants are slightly bugged on warmane. VVhile it's normal for them to deal very low amount of damage, apparently they're supposed to call upon the Damned skeletons behind them for help. This can be observed on the following clip from retail VVotLK:
(at 3:15-3:16 we can see the Damned skeletons going to the bear tank)
VVhat can we do to address this? VVe once again root the caster skeleton on one place, and we bring his minions to the friendly NPCs like so. One very important thing to note is that the friendly NPCs don't enter the Servants' threat table, as they neither buff nor heal us. Since they only attack the Damned skeletons, only those remain in combat once we exit the instance - the caster skeletons return to their original position. From there onwards, we have the same situation as depicted on the first clip in this subsection. As you can see, this doesn't kill the trick, but it does make it more time-consuming. VVith this out of the way, the post will continue as normal.
Should the raid night last longer than two hours, then the feral cat player would need to return to the first floor and dispose of the Damned skeletons as shown in the following clip:
Quick note - Alliance cats have it slightly easier, as they can use their https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=58984 NE racial to trigger the enemy's evasion and clear their threat that way:
If it wasn't obvious from the clips, the reason why I propose us using the "Servant of the Throne" as our main source of CPs is because a) we can LoS them, b) their casting time is rather slow, and c) they don't do that much damage anyway.
Kova, that's fine and all, but the boss in X, and I'm still here in Light's Hammer. How can I profit from this SR?
In the first post on this page, I showcased what happens when someone tries to enter a raid instance with SR:
It vanishes, however this isn't the case when we use either the ICC teleporters or when we accept a summon:
This proves that while the cat player cannot enter a raid instance with SR, he can keep the buff as long as it's cast within the raid instance. Yes, this also concerns bosses with a roleplay event like DBS, non-bugged BPC, and the LK.
Kova, but what if the enemy faction camps the entrance? If I die, I will lose the CPs.
Ye, this is true, however there is a way to circumvent this. On the first floor, there's a portal to Dalaran which we can use after generating 5 CPs on the caster skeleton. Once we teleport to that city, we can accept a summon from a warlock. The CPs will remain on the skeleton as shown in the following video:
(I got 5 CPs at 1:05, I clicked on the portal at 1:16, and at 3:20 I still had 5 CPs)
This only concerns Horde cats, as Alliance players can easily avoid this inconvenience by using Shadowmeld.
B) Balcony-strat
Let me start by saying that I consider this strategy inferior to the previous one because it can be performed only after LDVV has been dealt with, and it would prevent the player from participating in clearing the trash prior to other bosses, as he would be too busy with executing the setup. The reason why I am still including it here is because this was my first idea in ICC when I couldn't figure out how the entrance-strat would look like and because I spent a lot of time in analysing this idea from all possible angles. Anyway...
In the Rampart of Skulls, aka the zone prior to the Gunship fight, players encounter representatives of the other faction. Interestingly enough, after the funship fight ends, two faction camps remain - Alliance in the west and Horde in the east. Trying to separate them with roots like the Invokers from RS is impossible, as a single faction camp consists of 6-7 members. However, nothing stops the player from bringing the enemy group to their own allies:
After observing the events firsthand, I came to the following conclusions:
1) Both factions are in stillstand - there's no risk of anyone dying, so my potential "punching bag" would never expire;
2) It's impossible to clear our initial aggro unless we commit suicide or use Shadowmeld;
3) VVhen attacking an enemy, he goes back to his original position.
After kiting the enemy faction to our camp, I contemplated on whom I should attack in order to generate CPs. I ended up picking the healer (in my case the "Skybreaker Limunary"), as she seemed the least dangerous enemy. This would have been a great choice if it hadn't been for the fact that another NPC constantly attacked her which forced her to heal herself and to chase me with sluggish pace.
VVhy did I want her to chase me? In the previous clip, at 2:50 I unknowingly found the place where I could force her to retreat. Back then I hadn't realised it and just committed suicide. However, in this clip I was able to abuse this mechanic:
Please check 1:30. This is when I triggered her evasion and removed my threat. From that point onwards, I had a fairly harmless mob that I could attack for CPs, who didn't die to friendly NPCs. However, the whole process lasted more than I had expected, which made it non-viable in my book. I didn't stop there, though. Since my biggest problem was getting grieved by friendly NPCs, I decided to separate only the healer from her group and bring the others to the friendly camp.
<<<missing footage of me successfully rooting the healer and kiting the rest to the friendly camp>>>
This was my reward:
Let's make a small recap of the balcony-strat:
Ye, ye, I agree - this is too complicated and would just eat valuable time, but I wanted to share this idea here nonetheless.1) the raid clears the trash on the balcony after killing LDVV;
2) the cat druid roots the healer/asks a rogue to sap her;
3) the cat player brings the enemy faction to the friendly camp;
4) the cat player commits suicide, so that he can clear himself of all remaining aggro;
5) whenever the cat player needs CPs, he can just teleport to Rampart of Skulls and attack the healer;
6) once he obtains 5CPs, the player needs to bring the healer near the elevator in order to trigger her evasion and remove his threat.
C) Final thoughts
In this subsection, I'll completely disregard the balcony-strat for obvious reasons (wastes too much time, can only be done after the group already progresses the instance, and forces the player to commit suicide), and I'll only concentrate on the entrance-strat.
Pros:
- just like the entrance-strat in RS, you don't need to invest any resources in performing this trick (= it's free);
- just like the entrance-strat in RS, the mobs won't expire, so any CP you get on them will stay on your target indefinitely (unless you die or log off);
- unlike the entrance-strat in RS, the cat player can survive several physical hits from the caster enemies w/o any worries;
- just like the entrance-strat in RS, there's no need to swap trinkets or to attack the mobs while naked;
- since the cat player removes his threat after re-entering the instance, he can cast SR few seconds prior to the pull timer allowing him to utilise the (free) finisher with maximum efficiency.
Cons:
- unlike the entrance-strat in RS, help is definitely needed here (it's in the form of a warlock summon);
- unlike the entrance-strat in RS, fishing for CPs between bosses would waste time (a long pull timer would be needed as a response to the trinket ICDs);
- unlike the entrance-strat in RS, SR needs to be cast sooner otherwise the cat player won't have enough time to cast the druid buff;
- the cat player cannot start the boss fight with 5/5 https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=71175 stacks from their Crying Moon idol.
Commentary:
VVhat can I say? - the entrance-strat in ICC is just like the one in RS but with more drawbacks, which would discourage the majority of the playerbase from attempting it. Knowing that proccing DBVV triggers its 1:45 ICD, in order for the druid player to benefit from the free SR at start, the RL needs to set a 2-min pull timer prior to every (major) boss. This coupled with the fact that a warlock needs to waste a soul shard whenever we feel like minmaxing like that, leads me to believe that very few guilds would actually support it.
IV. Previous content phases
Thanks to Frostmourne, I took a liking to the early VVrath content (namely phase 1 with Naxx, EoE, OS and phase 2 with Ulduar). As a result, I became enthusiastic to explore different ways of generating CPs in those instances for the sake of a pre-pull SR. Unfortunately, I might only have a solution for only one of them.
Let's begin with the obvious - EoE and ToC/ToGC don't provide us with any options for a punching bag because those instances lack trash mobs. I'd argue that OS falls into the same category as well because if someone attempts 2 or 3 drakes and he doesn't clear the trash, then upon engaging Sartharion everything gets pulled. Should the raid group fight the trash mobs, the three mini bosses, and the main one simultaneously, then the raid would inevitably end with a wipe. In order for someone to gain CPs for a pre-pull SR in those instances, that person would most certainly need sth like https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 (and I doubt it's going to be included in the store).
This leaves us with Naxx and Ulduar, and things also look grim for the first instance. The problem with Naxx is that the trash mobs stationed near the entrance are jam-packed, and we can't really separate a single one from the rest. This coupled with the fact that this instance can be cleared in less than two hours, means that most groups would rather breeze through it rather than spend unnecessary amount of time waiting for a cat to acquire CPs for SR and not even beat warlocks or DKs in dps. Before I finish this paragraph, I'd like to mention that it's possible to acquire CPs for a SR and keep the buff before teleporting to the boss's room.
Now, it's high time I say a few words about Ulduar. Fortunately for us, there is a safe way to acquire CPs there. Take a look:
As you can see, I used the Steelforged Defenders to obtain CPs. VVhile I was worried at start that I would need to face a whole pack on my own, it's important to mention that these were NOT elite mobs. Because of this, they didn't have a lot of HP and didn't do fatal damage. This is why I felt comfortable to soak the damage in bear form while killing them one by one and only leaving a single Defender for the purpose of a punching bag. Since it had 12k HP, I knew that I would've killed it had I used any of my main cat abilities which is why I only resorted to using https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=1082. Had I played as an Alliance cat, I wouldn't have left the instance in order to clear my aggro - instead, I've just have cast https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=58984 right after obtaining the 5th CP.
I need to point out certain issues with this approach. As you probably saw at the beginning of the video, half the room was empty. This was a result of my raid grp clearing the trash only on the right side of the area. The thing I want to stress here is that those mobs DON'T respawn, and there's a risk that some groups MIGHT clear everything in this instance and leave us without any punching bags near the entrance. Just like in ICC, the good news is that the feral cat player can influence which trash mobs are left alive. VVe're once again encouraged to participate in clearing the trash before the actual fight begins.
V. Other interactions
According to wowpedia, a mage player needs to be out of combat to summon one of their portals, but anyone can click on them (regardless if they have threat or not):
Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Portal_(spell)It is not possible to create a portal in combat, but it is possible to enter one at any time.
This is also the case on warmane:
Imagine this scenario. I attack a mob for CPs while a mage places a portal next to me. If I click on it, I can zone out and reset my threat. I can then accept a warlock summon, immediately re-enter ICC and utilise the CPs on SR. I can see this being the case on DBS and the LK with the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 because there are no trash mobs nearby. Credit goes to Spreang for informing me about this interaction in the first place. He also told me that a paladin can use DI on a druid, in order for the latter to keep their CPs. However, personally I don't like the idea of sacrificing another person for our personal gains. Still, here's the proof for that interaction:
Edited: August 31, 2024 Reason: updated the post with information from the "Nemesis" project, though most of the conclusions remain the same
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Member
I apreciate your guides, but want to mention that you need well behaved raid for this particular boost.
Most of RS trash clear wipes occur when some1 face pulls the pair btw Savi and general and at same time some1 in midd does aoe buff that happens to hit the face puller and the pair of Charscale Elites goes straight through the pack.
In terms of min-maxing it is a possibility, but very risky vs the gain.
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Forum Veteran
Could you please clarify once again what you perceive as a potential risk surrounding this trick? I read your message many times, but I couldn't see your exact PoV. VVhile I understood that you fear a potential "trash clear wipe" in an unorganised group, I fail to see how that would be prevalent to warrant such concern. In the following paragraphs, I'd like to explain my proposed idea in more detail.
First and foremost, this trick was intended to be used after the 3rd mini-boss was killed. VVhile it CAN be done prior to each mini-boss, I completely disregarded it as a possibility since a) it would unnecessarily prolong clearing the instance and b) min-maxing on mini-bosses like that is pointless imho. The video footage in the previous post was taken in RS 25 hc on Lordearon after we killed Halion. Since we already killed the important mobs guarding the mini-bosses, I just used the marginal ones near the entrance as punching bags in order to generate CPs. I think this should answer your concern about a potential wipe when clearing the trash mobs, but nonetheless I'll continue elaborating my idea behind the trick (+ you're welcome to express your thoughts if I have missed sth).
Now, I'll tackle the first risk of this manoeuvre which is dying to the mobs when trying to solo them:
On this clip, I went from 100% to 0% HP after taking a single hit from one of the aforementioned spellcasters. This is why said in the previous post that soloing them is not always reliable (yes, I could have used Barkskin here, but I didn't expect to get one-shot). This was the reason why I suggested that we should ask a tank to soak the damage. They only need to survive a couple of seconds while we generate our CPs from 3-4 yellow abilities, after which both players leave the instance, so that they can clear themselves of all aggro. The others are unaffected AS LONG AS they don't interfere (i.e. they don't heal their allies or attack the mobs). This can be seen in the video from the previous post, where a mage player stood in the center of the zone, unbothered by anything. Here's the same clip but unedited:
Notice how in the time frame 0:38-0:41 the Charscale Invoker returned to its original position. The mage remained alive the whole time - he didn't need to use Ice Block or leave the instance with me. If I hadn't told him what I did, he wouldn't have noticed the unusual play. Here, I'd like to disagree with you that the group needs to be well organised for this trick to work. Imho, it's not hard to say "I'll attack a mob near the entrance, please don't attack it" or "Hey, tank, could you please come to the entrance and attack this mob for me? VVhen I tell you, leave the instance. Others, please stay where you are and don't assist us". Yes, I can see how this wouldn't be performed in a pug raid for obvious reasons, but in a grun this is absolutely doable (not to mention, telling others not to attack sth is the bare minimum requirement for a group coordination imho). Moreover, long past are the days where we only used the in-game chat box to communicate with each other. Now we have access to discord, so I expect the feral cat player to come to the voice channel and say his idea out loud for everyone else to hear it. Not to mention, said player can inform others about his intentions prior to the raid.
Let's make a quick summary of what I said thus far:
1) The raid group kills the third and last mini-boss prior to Halion.
2) The feral cat player (mby alolngsided the tank) goes to the entrance and attacks a mob for CPs.
3) The player(s) quickly leaves the instance and rejoins others. As long as they haven't interfered, they would be completely unaffected by the whole manoeuvre.
Now, I'll tackle the second risk which is proccing our trinkets. STS's ICD is 45 seconds, whereas DBVV's - 1:45. This is why I said in the previous post that it would be optimal if the cat player goes for this trick immediately after downing the third mini-boss, while the rest are preparing for Halion. I expect the preparation to last more than 2 mins, but IF we're talking about a super elite group which knows what needs to be done on that boss encounter w/o much explanation beforehand, then I could imagine how that particular group wouldn't spend too much time preparing. However, imho, in the majority of the cases the preparation would last at least 4-5 minutes, which would be more than enough for the cat player to pull off this trick.
Now, I'll tackle the third risk which is repeating the trick after a wipe on Halion. This is pretty much self-explanatory. I can see how after X attempts the raid leader wouldn't want to waste time and would shorten the preparation window. Imho, such scenario would depend on the group.
I analysed the possible risks of this manoeuvre and gave my thoughts on how to address them. Imho, those are not severe at all, however this doesn't change my opinion that the trick is not that beneficial in general. Here, I'd like to quote the part where I calculated the damage from the initial post:
The dps gain was calculated in the context of a 3-min fight. Halion's boss encounter would last more than that, so at the end we can expect like half of that.- buffed Mangle at start = 10,467.97 (2,597.32 damage gain)
- 2 buffed AAs at start = 6,728.28 (1,669.42 damage gain)
- extra Rip tick = 4,984.65 (4,984.65 damage gain)
- 25 preserved energy = Shred*25/42 = 15449.57*25/42 (9,196.17 damage gain)
Damage gain so far: 18,447.56 or around 100 dps in a 3-min fightIn this particular thread, I don't write guides, rather just play with ideas and analyse their advantages, disadvantages, and their execution. As Raenel said to me once, I'm "just throwing ideas to the wall and see what sticks". The purpose of this thread is to discuss new playstyles in a constructive matter (what you and I are doing right now :) ). Moreover, I'm not the only person allowed to share theorycrafting ideas here - whoever wants to participate with their own suggestions, they're more than welcome to join.I apreciate your guidesEdited: July 6, 2024 Reason: minor edit
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Forum Veteran
FOLLOVV-UP POST
I. Preface
After figuring out how to acquire CPs for a pre-pull SR in ICC and in RS, I thought that I had exhausted all possible ideas concerning this theorycraft. Initially, I didn't plan on working on anything else until I decided to direct my attention to the previous content phases, namely to Ulduar as it's one of my favourite raids in VVotLK. In the last couple of days, I tried finding a suitable candidate for a punching bag in that instance. VVhile contemplating my options, I recalled the presence of the t8 set, and then I realised that its 4p set bonus had positive synergies with SR. I created two equipment sets - one consisting of our typical ICC & RS gear, while the other featuring 4pt8 - and then I swapped them in order to see if we could keep the longer duration of SR while wearing our endgame gear. I'm happy to say that it works:
Now, I can imagine that gaining 8 extra seconds of pre-pull SR might seem as something minor. However, it's important to mention that this discovery made me re-evaluate all of the previously suggested openers. In the past, back when I used the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 as the primary source for CPs, I tried both TF-Berserk and Berserk-TF, and I came to the conclusion that Berserk-TF was better due to the imminent presence of TF after the big CD, which allowed the cat player to cast FB as the last GCD and then regain the CPs for the other two finishers.
For reference:
(no opportunity for a FB during Berserk)
vs
(I cast FB during Berserk at 1:13)
However, this is true when 1) we cast SR 10 seconds before engaging the boss, and 2) we don't benefit from the 4pt8 set bonus because SR's and Rip's durations are (almost) synced. By extending SR's duration, we increase the gap between both finishers, and as a result we can be greedier with our CPs during Berserk. This is what made me reconsider my previous conclusions, and why I wanted to write this post. In the next subsections, I'll analyse more thoroughly both Berserk-TF and TF-Berserk in the context of a longer pre-pull SR. Before I do that, I'd like to mention something quickly:
For Icecrowners, I have some good news: You don't need to clear any bosses in Ulduar or spend any emblems in obtaining 4pt8 if you don't want to - you can use the point shop for that purpose and save yourselves some time.Spoiler:Show
II. Berserk-TF
I'll start with this opener because it's simpler to analyse. Just like before, I'll observe different variations of it (namely "Shred spam" and "FB mid-Berserk") and compare their damage differences by using the values of Shred and FB from the table below:
no CCs except the one at start:AP from STS hc = 1781 with our Heart of the VVild talent and with Trueshot Aura
Hysteria = 20% damage increase
FB (no AP procs, but with Hysteria) = 33650
FB (extra Hysteria value only from the STS proc) = 2994
FB excess damage for 1 energy (no AP procs, but with Hysteria) = 232.392
FB excess damage for 1 energy (extra Hysteria value only from the STS proc) = 20.86
Shred average (with Hysteria) = 18500
Shred average (extra Hysteria value only from the STS proc) = 1609
5xCPs = 33649.9 - (18500*35/42) = 18233
1xCP = 3647
2xCPs = 7293
CP average for 75.4% crit = 6497
Spoiler:Show
1 extra CC during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
2 extra CCs during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
3 extra CCs during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
Examples:
(two FBs enhanced by STS)
(this clip was recorded before I analysed Berserk-TF's energy management; I should've cast FB mid-Berserk after getting the 2nd CC)
(I cast FB right before Berserk ended)
(I cast FB right after Berserk)
(I cast FB right after Berserk)
Conclusions:
- if the player has 0-1 CPs during Berserk, spamming Shred and casting FB with 18-24 energy is the best play.
- with 2 or more CCs, the player needs to go for FB mid-Berserk.
- if the conditions are optimal (i.e. the player has enough time), any excess CP after Berserk ends can be used on FB. VVith the help of TF (and the GotVV-shift), the player can immediately regain the CPs for the upcoming finishers. This is better than preserving the CPs because the player needs to use TF anyway, which would result in him sacrificing CPs for nothing.
III. TF-Berserk
Now, it's time for me to share my thoughts on this opener. Unlike Berserk-TF which follows the old starting pattern (aka 2xGCDs + Berserk), TF-Berserk can vary even in that regard. This is because we can acquire a lot of CC procs at start and thus generate a lot of CPs. Obviously, the first finisher we will use them on will be Rip, but afterwards we can postpone TF+Berserk in favour of an early FB which would be enhanced by STS. Here's my idea:
Yes, this sounds very optimistic, but it's still a possibility which we should take advantage of. It's better to utilise those CPs because during Berserk we would sacrifice them by spamming Shred anyway. In order to increase the likelihood of this happening, we can cast https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=63409 right before we use Shred. Once again, the good thing about this ability is that it doesn't trigger a GCD so we can always find a way to squeeze it in our rotation.Before the fight
- SR and GotVV
During the fight
1) Mangle -> 100 energy
2) Rake -> 65 energy + 10 from the GCD (75 in total)
3) Shred -> 33 energy + 10 from the GCD (43 in total)
4) (assuming 5 CPs) Rip -> 23 energy + 10 from the GCD (33 in total)
< we get a CC proc>
5) Shred -> 33 energy + 10 from the GCD (43 in total)
6) Shred -> 1 energy + 10 from the GCD (11 in total)
< we get a CC proc>
7) Shred -> 11 energy + 10 from the GCD (21 in total)
>we pool 14 energy<
8) (assuming 4-5 CPs) FB
Ok, but let's distance ourselves from this optimal scenario and assume that we don't get (that m)any CC procs at start. In such scenario, I see two timings of Berserk:
vsI. Berserk is cast ASAP
1) 1) Mangle - 100 energy after the GCD
2) Rake - 75 energy after the GCD
3) Shred - 43 energy after the GCD
4) (assuming 5 CPs) Rip - 33 energy after the GCD
>pool 9 energy<
5) Shred - 10 energy after the GCD
6) TF+Berserk - 80 energy after the GCD
The first example goes into Berserk one second sooner and thus it utilises an extra second of STS. The second example, on the other hand, starts Berserk with 10 extra energy points which allow the player to squeeze in an extra ability in Berserk. In the next spoilers, I'll compare their damage (I'll only observe the "Shred spam" variation for simplicity's sake):II. Berserk is postponed by one second
1) 1) Mangle - 100 energy after the GCD
2) Rake - 75 energy after the GCD
3) Shred - 43 energy after the GCD
4) (assuming 5 CPs) Rip - 33 energy after the GCD
>pool 9 energy<
5) Shred - 10 energy after the GCD
6) TF + pooling energy for one second - 80 energy
7) Berserk - 90 energy after the GCD
no CCs except the one at start:
Spoiler:Show
1 extra CC during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
After comparing both variations, I conclude that it would be more beneficial for the cat player to delay Berserk so that he can have more energy to work with. In the following spoilers, I'll continue my analysis of the "postponed" Berserk, but I'll concentrate on its "Shred spam" and "FB mid-Berserk" variations:
no CCs except the one at start:
Spoiler:Show
1 extra CC during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
2 extra CC during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
3 extra CCs during Berserk:
Spoiler:Show
I want to mention sth, and I've noticed it from my times playing as a cat in general: The best timing for a CC proc during Berserk is undoubtedly when we're low on energy and have few CPs or none at all. If, for example, I were to blow my energy with two consecutive FBs, I'd prefer to get the CCs after my energy reaches 0. That way, I can continue being active whilst keeping my energy low enough for FB's primary energy cost. Anyway, here is some gameplay footage:
(two FBs during Berserk + 5 CPs after Berserk ended)
(a ton of lucky CCs but at the same time a lot of unlucky crits: after Rip, I cast 3 Shreds and got only 3 CPs; I could have cast FB prior to popping TF and Berserk + two non-critical FBs during Berserk + 3 CPs after Berserk ended)
(0:21 my FB was enhanced by STS + 5 CPs after Berserk ended)
(0:22 my FB was enhanced by STS + 4CPs after Berserk ended + 0:41 FB right before SR was refreshed)
(0:20 my FB was enhanced by STS + 3CPs after Berserk)
(0:21 my FB was enhanced by STS + 5 CPs after Berserk)
(misplay at 0:29 - I should have cast Shred right before Berserk ended)
Conclusions:
- if the player has lucky CC procs at the start of the fight, he can go Mangle -> Rake -> Rip -> Shred spam -> FB before popping TF & Berserk.
- the player needs to enter Berserk with 90 (+/-) energy. This means that he will be forced to delay Berserk by one second. Sacrificing a bit of STS value is better than having less energy in Berserk.
- if the player has 0 CPs during Berserk, spamming Shred and casting a single FB with 18-24 energy is the best play.
- if the player receives even a single CC during Berserk, he should transition to FB mid-Berserk.
- casting FB shouldn't hinder the player from gathering CPs for Rip after Berserk expires. If there's a risk of this happening, then the player should avoid biting his main target (in other words, casting FB as the last GCD is bad).
- if the conditions are optimal (i.e. the player has enough time), any excess CP between Rip and SR can be used on FB. VVith the help of TF (and the GotVV-shift), the player can immediately regain the CPs for the upcoming finishers.
IV. Personal thoughts on "TF-Berserk" vs "BerserkTF"
Tbh, what I'm about to say in this section is just my personal opinion. First of all, I like how in both openers the first TF after Berserk helps the player generate CPs for an upcoming finisher. In Berserk-TF's case, it's the second Rip:
(TF at 0:24 helped me generate the needed CPs for Rip)
In TF-Berserk's case, it could be either the third Rip:
(TF at 0:42 helped me generate the needed CPs for Rip)
(TF at 0:58 helped me generate the needed CPs for Rip)
or the second SR:
(TF at 0:42 helped me generate the needed CPs for SR)
VVhat I didn't like is how RNG-dependent I was when SR's duration wasn't 40+, but 30ish. After Berserk, there was a small gap between Rip and SR which in some cases created awkward moments:
(at 0:39, I only generated two CPs for SR)
(if it weren't for that CC proc at 0:34, I would have only generated two CPs for SR)
This is why I think that the GotVV-shift is a must when the duration of the pre-pull SR is short (either due to the absence of 4pt8 or because SR was cast 10 seconds prior to the pull).
Personally, I really like how TF-Berserk plays out here. Not only does the player cast TF early on and give himself the possibility of obtaining an extra one in the long run, but Rip is also cast prior to Berserk (i.e. one second earlier in comparison to Berserk-TF). Also, I like how TF-Berserk can potentially give us a FB prior to Berserk if we are lucky enough with the CC procs.
Having said that, I don't dismiss Berserk-TF as a viable opener, as the argument of benefiting from TF's damage buff is still valid imho. It's also true that with the presence of TF after Berserk, it pretty much guarantees 5CPs for Rip. All in all, imho it still boils down to 1) whether the player is a GotVV-shifter, 2) how long the fights lasts, and 3) personal preference.Edited: August 27, 2024 Reason: changed the title of the main post
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Forum Veteran
LOGGING OUT VVITH TEMPORARY BUFFS
Disclaimer: This post is just for documentation purposes - it doesn't propose any practical ideas.
After figuring out how we can cheat resources (i.e. energy in the form of CC procs w/ the GotVV-shift and CPs w/ the pre-pull SR), I wanted to see whether we could gain extra buffs. Thanks to the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780, I found out that we can begin a fight w/ the 220 Agility buff from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50456:
and if we swap our weapons, we can have an extra https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=59620:
However, those tricks are way too impractical as they require 1) an easy mob to kill (like the pinata) and 2) precise timing (incl. precise idol swapping and acknowledgement of the pull timer). This is why I wanted to change my approach and find a simpler way of gaining buffs.Spoiler:Show
I took inspiration from Vanilla VVoVV/Classic VVoVV/warmane's Onyxia, where people preserved their world buffs by logging out. I tested it with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=2825 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=55213, and after logging out I managed to keep them:
(please skip 0:12-0:37)
(please skip 0:04-0:28)
(please skip 0:24-1:01)
Now, I want to explain why I'm not really thrilled with this idea. On the one hand, we can get two Hysterias from the same BDK (one pre-pull and another during the heat of the fight). On the other hand, the whole raid needs to wait 3 minutes in order for the BDK's Hysteria to come off CD. This is because if we want to profit from two Hysterias, we need to make sure that the DK's spell becomes available again otherwise we'd end up losing precious seconds of that buff. So, if we stay logged out for 3 minutes, then the rest of the group needs to wait that long for us too. This is the biggest reason why I don't think most of the guilds would allow it. Same goes to Bloodlust which is even worse because we get a 10-min debuff (though, more ppl can benefit from it).
The story doesn't end there, though. If we log out while having CPs, we'd lose them. In addition to this, upon logging back into the game we trigger the ICDs of our trinkets:
(please skip 0:12-1:42)
Now, on my Lordearon cat I don't have any of the endgame trinkets, but it's not hard to imagine how devastating it would be to miss out on DBVV's buffs if we're forced to trigger its 1:45 minute-long ICD. This mechanic alone completely kills off any potential this theorycraft would have had, but there's more. The whole premise has obvious anti-synergies with the pre-pull SR. It won't matter if we try to cast SR and then log out - we'll lose it:
Lastly, activating the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725 sooner than 45 seconds prior to the pull just wastes its uptime:
(please skip 0:43-2:40)
So, yeah, due to the many disadvantages logging out of the game comes with, any theorycraft surrounding this concept would bring us more harm than good.
Spoiler:Show Edited: September 12, 2024 Reason: mentioned Heartpierce in the spoiler
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