Removing depth from a games is common these days, some people prefer it. Puts you in a nice, smooth loop that works real good. Consume. Since they probably spent more money on researching that compared to creating the game itself.
Some consider it a joke - and it is ironic, maybe funny to some - removing core aspects of a social game.
People who understand with what its getting replaced just get sad and call retail "a joke".
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Forum Veteran
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Member
Retail is a huge joke for many different factors, the personal loot is just one of many things wrong with retail.
Only good thing I can think about retail is the idea behind mythic dungeons.
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Forum Veteran
what exactly is wrong with personal loot?(never played retail so no clue how it works there) but unless it's based off your spec you'd still need decent luck to get the item you're looking for.
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Member
I can't specify it to You. You have to check it Yourself, imo its based on luck, boring (don't see these shiny frames with loot when boss is down), not so equal for everyone, totally ruined legendary status of some great items (like DBW or STS in WOTLK), well, for me it's just not rewarding. I tried personal loot and need/greed+ML system in Wow and for me, the old solution is just way better.
Tbh its not the main retail problem, but surely part of it. When I was playing WoD, Legion, BfA (just a bit) I didn't feel like playing WoW anymore, it was like playing an chinese MMO or mobile game with all these chests, funny daily tasks (clickers), glowing contures of every mob/NPC (brrrrr it looks terrible, straight out of the mobile game where You just click whats gloving up). Immersion do not exist anymore. Idk how they did it, but 90% classes/specs are actually way more boring than during wotlk and tbc. Even now, You can check changes on PTS, all classes have just few spells and they are so obvious, that You already know what to use after 3 mins in game, even when granted almost full lvl char (class trial).
So yea, for me Retail is unplayable anymore, personal loot is doing its part in it. Maybe for new or younger players its great, hard to say.
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Moderator
Plenty of games better than WoW - old or new WoW - use personal loot.
The only reason for wanting shared loot is for the opportunity to ride on other people's luck by peer-pressuring/guilty tripping them. Anyone who isn't after that will be perfectly fine knowing what they get is what they earned, not feeling any pull to greed over what others got like it "should be" theirs, blaming only their own luck instead of childishly acting like it's somoene else's fault for having better luck.
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Member
Dont act like gear trading isnt a part of retail even with personal loot it can be traded with the players in the raid.
"What they get is what they earned" complete and utterly bull****, if X player who died at phase 1 on a LK lod run suddenly ends up winning the rng lottery trough personal loot and gets glorenz/oathbinder/havoc or whatever else it might be thats an upgrade for them does not mean that they earned or even deserved that piece of loot.
That said item should go to the person who deserves it the most judged by a loot council and nothing else, to make sure loot is distributed to people who are loyal and active within the guild ontop of performing to what their current gear/class offers.
Personal loot just like much else thats part of retail wow is garbage and contributes to its downfall.Edited: October 8, 2020
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Moderator
I never did, but you misrepresenting what people said is nothing new.
Exhibit #01 for the "I deserve it" backwards mentality. It's a game with random rewards. If you "deserved" more as far as the game is concerned you would get bonuses in the internal RNG, not be treated equally as just another person who was in there. But keep on pushing the blame on the other person for having better luck than you, instead of dealing with your own lack of it at the time.
Of all the actually valid reasons people have to consider WoW to be in "downfall," personal loot definitely isn't one. Well, for the vast majority at least, there's always they "I deserve it" crowd. After all, as you tried to act like I had tried to deny in some way, there's still trading. Unless you're in a pick-up group, your buddies supposedly would trade it with you anyway if you in fact needed it, no?
Personal loot is the future of loot in MMOs and coop games because it does away with petty entitled argues of who gets what. The "I deserve it" crowd are the ones who caused it to happen too, which is deliciously ironic.
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Forum Veteran
MMO future is single player games, riiight. Point of MMO is dealing with other people, splitting the loot included. That's what makes it great. You are not able to come to consensus with other players, you think there is something unfair, people riding on your back. You will not get anywhere with that mentality. That is your subjective experience. Majority can, have and will talk it out, negotiate to various degree of success and it makes the game great.
/roll is just a faceless indisputable ultimatum to resolve any disagreements quickly and unbiased. There is nothing fair bout it. It's fair only if you agree to it, same as Council, DKP, EPGP, anything else. There is no "riding on your back" unless you allow it. If you raid in environment where participation trophies are not given, that doesn't make it unfair, you signed up for that. Collect some cards to play, talk smooth, agree to rules or systems, do good, be fair, pull rank cards, ninja, be scum, anything goes, I don't get it why people want to eliminate Alignment scale that is a huge part of any RPG, be anywhere from lawful good to chaotic evil, that's what makes the game amazing and alive.
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Member
This thread is going places
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Member
I'm also familiar with epgp. every item has it own value and you have to participate in guild raids. Each boss was worth around 50 points (one item 2-3k). It wasn't that family friendly, when your guild do 2 / 3 raids a week. But I could gear up 2 characters in less as 9 months (I think I also had a summer break of 2 months). I also could get the lichking crossbow from icc 10 normal for my combat rogue. (both chars was from another server)
I don't like dkp and all these bet mechanics
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Member
Honestly, DKP seems quite fair. Need/greed is good for rdf hc etc, or not endgame pug raids.
Why is it? Well:
1) If You want serious raiding, You gotta join guild. If You are loyal, staying with one for months, farm raids, You will get enough DKP to get some items. This solution promotes loyality and gets rid of people who would want to join new guild and instantly gets all the loot, than leaves when first problems shows up.
2) If You want more DKP, You gotta raid more. That can provide healthy guild condition, preventing natural dying with time. It helps new players too, cause well geared ppl are singing up even for lower ilvl content, when they do not need anything, just so they can get some DKPs - in these raids lower players gets items for free or minimum bid, cause noone alse wants it.
3) Some people tend to talk that its unfair cause GM and the officers, which are in game for the longest time, has advantage above others cause they've probably been raiding more, so they have more DKP and can outbid You on any item. Why is it totally fair? Because, they are sacrificing the most of their time for raids to happen. For example, You are joining guild, signing up for raid at 5 p.m. You probably can log in 10 mins before, gets invited to raid, go afk for a while and thats all. GM/officers have to: make guild, find people that wants to join, having an eye on guild squad so the guild can actually raid, verify new members, plan raids for the week, assembling groups, usually leads raid while using discord, taking care of DKP system, taking care of loot (BoE), organising guild bank, preparing fishes/potions etc etc. Ofc they deserve more.
I can agree with Angrylol, its MMO, not single, and loot distribution should be part of the gameplay, as well as cooperation during raid.
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Member
No it is not. That's why epgp was developed after it as improvement.
Why is it? well
1) If you're loyal and joining guild as any not "lacking" class u can't get most of invites, cause it is "full, hunt last spot" (in terms of multiplelod farming guilds), or just going 6/12 with class that hey are needed with cure "helping" with no purpse to toll anything (cause 6/12 is too low for u). Or u can just came from work and notice that smb got random dkp points for not announced run. So bassically u can come every calendar announced event, and still be behind in dkp.
2) Yes, u should raid more. But DKP forced ppl to cheat and scheme, cause it is based on ppl bets. Yeah, we can believe in mirracles that all ppl are kind and polite, but 1 toxic player with his HIGH thoughts of unfair can start boosting numbers for others, the target will feel offended and start to boost numbers other, and there will be nothing left from "fridenly guild".
3) It has nothing with me, that they raided before. Yes they should have some adnatage, like integrity period for new player, but when u join guild with 120dkp per icc run with 2 runs per week and there 50+ ppl with 300k+ dkp in charts? how the hell this is fine? i should carry them cause they helped some fried clear pos hc year ago? is it fine?
Yes! It can be solved with proper regular dkp cutting %, or dkp capm but ppl here don't care.
As far as i can see now:
1) accumulating problem. Ppl earn more dkp that they can spend. To make it work u should spend same amount that u earn.
2) human problems, dkp is market and unscrupulous ppl, force others to play according to THEIR rules with boosting others. IF it is called "system" it should be impartial, DKP is not.
I prefer epgp, but to be honest epgp also can be fped with wrong settings.
That's why fair roll is most reliable thing nowadays.
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Forum Veteran
Hmm, sounds like you are playing the game with other players. I guess "MMO" part didn't give it away for you.
Best system is GoldDKP. Your "efforts" are rewarded with gold or with items. You win either way. Still can complain how you didn't get invited, so it's even 3 x Win for everyone.
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Member
Dkp is bad because it turns slowly to loot council where you can't take any item because officers,etc. have a priority.
Also you can't compete against people who have 500k + dkp and you barely have 30k. They will always roll on the items they don't even need, to give to a friend or just to troll you. Pretty much how it went with my guilds.
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Member
Create your own guild without it. Problem solved.
