Cataclysm [Guide] Combat Rogue PvE

[PuzzleManiak]

Whole poison thing is fishy, ofc stuff should work like Soulsseeker explained, I'm aware of IP proc chances as well. Switching them didn't give me any visible disadvantage though, even more, reduced ramp up slightly and increased DP contribution to dps by a fair margin (varying from 2-4%). I'd say with pitiful dps contribution from poisons, you can go either, or just DP/IP for short fights (and ones with unreliable uptime), IP/DP the rest. Matter of taste really.

@Soulsseeker
If you go DP/IP amount of proc will be the same over time, regardless of oh speed, that's what I meant with 'evens out'.

[taralej]

I really don't see a valid point in the post that made you think. I've stated twice already logical and mathematical explanation to why IP/DP is better when the poison proc chance is 37%/30% compared to 30%/20% with DP/IP. HOW is it gonna even itself out??? What you said about MG procs tilts the argument even more in my favor since MG procs will proc IP more often than they would DP.

The last thing I want to do is start another fight here but I think you're being too impatient and rash with editing your guide with controversial information like you did at the beginning when we had that haste/mastery argument. Just... don't be so fast with changing aspects of the guide with something that is quite bizarre and imo illogical.

edit: I see you already removed the part I was talking about, okay.

After several other tests, which I conducted today, I came with the following results:

2.6/1.4 weps in both cases

4.2kk dmg base, IP/DP, 230 IP procs, 90 DP ticks, 13.6k DPS

4.3kk dmg base, DP/IP, 200 IP procs, 99 DP ticks, 14.2k DPS

I have screenshots of both recounts.

It makes no sense at all and I quit testing this and will just stick with IP/DP. This is also why I changed my guide back to normal. Yes, I did the tests earlier today, but I'm posting now because it just made so much nonsense to me and made me so mad, that I couldn't even begin to comprehend it.

The reason why I tried DP/IP was IP being a PPM, while DP is chance on hit. Thus the MG procs should proc DP and respectively IP insanely high. MG shouldn't proc IP that much if it's on the MH. My logic fails here though, since as you can see it's not like that. And yeah, I was just gonna say that I don't wanna start another fight too.

[dominitian]

on boss fights if we used Vanish should`we get out of combat if we don`t take dmg ? cause it doesn`t ... i ask this because that way we would have cd on http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80495 and we could use it a 2nd time in a fight not just once meaning more dps

[taralej]

You already use it 2 times - once on prepot and a second time during the fight, so we're talking about a 3rd pot.

Yes, Vanish should cause you to leave combat immediately, but if there are any HoTs on you or any damaging boss mechanics hits you before you pot, you're screwed. Same goes for Mass Ress.

[dominitian]

You already use it 2 times - once on prepot and a second time during the fight, so we're talking about a 3rd pot.

Yes, Vanish should cause you to leave combat immediately, but if there are any HoTs on you or any damaging boss mechanics hits you before you pot, you're screwed. Same goes for Mass Ress.

still ... it doesn`t works ! i tried it on chimaeron
maybe i had hots on me ... i`ll check again

[taralej]

There's something about Chimaeron. I tried Mass Ress w/ Invis on my mage and I've tried it on my rogue too and it won't work. It's boss-specific.

[PuzzleManiak]

still ... it doesn`t works ! i tried it on chimaeron
maybe i had hots on me ... i`ll check again

I'm fairly sure someone already reported that bug, ie. Vanish not removing from combat instantly, as it's supposed to. Normally it should put you out of combat regardless of dmg taken etc till you go regular stealth (3s or w/e it was), so extra potion wouldn't be a problem.

[dominitian]

I'm fairly sure someone already reported that bug, ie. Vanish not removing from combat instantly, as it's supposed to. Normally it should put you out of combat regardless of dmg taken etc till you go regular stealth (3s or w/e it was), so extra potion wouldn't be a problem.

is not reported ...

[PuzzleManiak]

I mean bug discussion thread not bug tracker, some dev was claiming they read it too;]

[taralej]

Can you imagine what would happen if one of the devs actually reads THIS thread? I really don't think they're paying much attention to it. The bugs that have been posted in the bug tracker and in the guide have been on for more than half a year now... The only thing they've fixed is Rupture + Restless Blades, which is as simple as to look at how it stands for Eviscerate and then copypaste it for Rupture.

I even have an idea why the Main Gauche bug happens: MG attacks are considered MH special attack. Mastery procs from MH attacks and specials. The rest is easy. Just exclude them from proccing Mastery or make them count as something else, which won't hurt MG by itself.

I don't think it's hard checking the foruma for Rupture either...

Only Bandit's Guile cycle keeping through Redirect may be a bit harder.

[Griefel]

on boss fights if we used Vanish should`we get out of combat if we don`t take dmg ? cause it doesn`t ... i ask this because that way we would have cd on http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80495 and we could use it a 2nd time in a fight not just once meaning more dps

Yes but you need to time it so you don't get hit by aoe, lose the vanish and still have no pot reset. Also if you stay out of combat more than 4-5 seconds you should be losing more dps than you gain.


@Poison discussion
As far as I know, and I think I am repeating myself, mastery does not proc proisons, so why is this discussion still going on? With 5 stacks DP should be ticking an extra dmg each time you melee, on top of the dot tick(the way pala Censure does) but these ticks are far weaker than IP(maybe even half dmg?) because IP's ppm is alot higher, and these procs are also on a ppm. Using both weapons with DP or both weapons with IP is also a loss because poisons share hidden cooldown. In conclusion you should be using Instant poison on you mainhand because it's the biggest source of poison dmg, and because in mainhand it is guaranteed to get the maximum ppm obtainable out of it and DP on you offhand because the dot benefit outweighs the ppm of something like wound poison because the offhand still misses alot.

@Hit vs Haste discussion
Hit above melee cap benefits 2 things, one is the offhand(up to a cap of 27% which is unreachable and huge) hit chance and the other is poison hit chance up to the spell cap of 17% but these sources are so weak in comparison to the sources of damage empowered by haste that the whole thing is hilarious. Also it should be mentioned that above the melee specials hit cap(8%) mastery does not get any benefit whatsoever so hit loses alot of importance after the specials cap is reached.
Now why is haste good? because look at the dummy tests mentioned here, 2 of the best sources of damage are still SS and Eviscerate, in close competition with melee attacks, as long as this will remain haste will remain king because it directly affects how many SS and Evs we can do in the course of the fight. If friggin Rupture would be fixed haste would benefit it aswell making haste even better.

Atm the gearing priority is something like this: Agi(biggest contributor by far, better than anything else including mastery and it affects all our sources of damage mostly indirectly trough the generation of attack power)>Expertise and Hit(they affect the chance of all our attacks either directly or indirectly - in the case of poisons)> Mastery(our best secondary stat here on molten, paste the melee exp and hit cap, mostly because it's broken, mastery will never become better than either Expertise/Hit up to hit cap or Agility because it is affected by all 3 of them)> Haste(or 2nd best secondary stat, it provides empowerment to our top dps abilities Sinister Strike and Eviscerate, as well as secondary but still important aoe and utility capabilities)> Hit up to 17% spell cap(Since retail people say this is better than crit, and there are no major bugs to affect this in any way, and poisons work pretty much retail like, this stat will stay above crit, however this is not worth keeping on gear, you should be reforging this away to stronger stats when you can)> Crit(Our worst stat because it competes with Agi provided crit and because the other stats provide far stronger benefits)

@Melee attacks issue
A big part of melee attacks dmg comes from the mainhand not the offhand, because offhand often hits with glancing blows, it's something that cannot be avoided since glancings are not removable from the attack table and they do lower damage than regular offhand hits. This is because on the attack table glancings come after normal hits and are followed by criticals, it's also a reason why in certain patches a crit cap can be reached which represents the point where there are only normal hits, glancings and criticals going on for the offhand.

[dominitian]

Yes but you need to time it so you don't get hit by aoe, lose the vanish and still have no pot reset. Also if you stay out of combat more than 4-5 seconds you should be losing more dps than you gain.


@Poison discussion
As far as I know, and I think I am repeating myself, mastery does not proc proisons, so why is this discussion still going on? With 5 stacks DP should be ticking an extra dmg each time you melee, on top of the dot tick(the way pala Censure does) but these ticks are far weaker than IP(maybe even half dmg?) because IP's ppm is alot higher, and these procs are also on a ppm. Using both weapons with DP or both weapons with IP is also a loss because poisons share hidden cooldown. In conclusion you should be using Instant poison on you mainhand because it's the biggest source of poison dmg, and because in mainhand it is guaranteed to get the maximum ppm obtainable out of it and DP on you offhand because the dot benefit outweighs the ppm of something like wound poison because the offhand still misses alot.

@Hit vs Haste discussion
Hit above melee cap benefits 2 things, one is the offhand(up to a cap of 27% which is unreachable and huge) hit chance and the other is poison hit chance up to the spell cap of 17% but these sources are so weak in comparison to the sources of damage empowered by haste that the whole thing is hilarious. Also it should be mentioned that above the melee specials hit cap(8%) mastery does not get any benefit whatsoever so hit loses alot of importance after the specials cap is reached.
Now why is haste good? because look at the dummy tests mentioned here, 2 of the best sources of damage are still SS and Eviscerate, in close competition with melee attacks, as long as this will remain haste will remain king because it directly affects how many SS and Evs we can do in the course of the fight

@Melee attacks issue
A big part of melee attacks dmg comes from the mainhand not the offhand, since the mainhand never misses, they are in terms of pure weapon dps the same but the offhand still misses. Further more the offhand often hits with glancing blows, it's something that cannot be avoided since glancings are not removable of the attack table and they do lower damage than regular offhand hits. This is because on the attack table glancings come after normal hits and are followed by criticals, it's also a reason why in certain patches a crit cap can be reached which represents the point where there are only normal hits, glancings and criticals going on for the offhand.
Because of these factors we have faster weapons in offhand, because at higher speed, they do more damage than a weapon with slower speed but same dps, because they hit more often, and the chance of those many hits to be regular dmg or crits improves significantly as there are more attempts. Theoretically slower weapons should come close to fast weapons but the fights are way to short overall to even come close to that point.

it`s a good argument but but that`s only for single targets boss like chimaeron, but as for others, like magmaw (when head is down),valiona, council (think how important would be a extra potion in the last phase), etc, a 3rd potion would mean a real boost for your dps

[taralej]

MG procs can proc poisons too, as the screenshot I had uploaded on the first page showed. That's the sole reason I went for DP/IP. Otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it.

As far as I know, main hand auto-attacks can miss while dual-wielding. That's the reason why I'm putting hit over haste, because it will convert into more MG procs, which convert into more chainprocs, which convert into more Combat Potency procs, which converts into more SS & Evi, which combined with MG converts into more DP(IP) procs when using the DP/IP.

[Griefel]

it`s a good argument but but that`s only for single targets boss like chimaeron, but as for others, like magmaw (when head is down),valiona, council (think how important would be a extra potion in the last phase), etc, a 3rd potion would mean a real boost for your dps

I am talking about pure damage boost there, the potion is less damage than 4-5 SS and 1 Evi. The only conditions where this would not be true are damage boost phases like Magmaw and Maloriak. And if you're in vanish and the combat does not fade to allow for reset of potion you lose the dps you gain by using that said potion. Ofc you can argue that it's needed on Chimaeron last phase because killing the boss faster would grant you less room for failure, but if you produce the vanish during the last phase and stay out of combat for more than 5 seconds you will be losing dps. So in conclusion use with caution and learn where and when you can use and gain an advantage and where the advantage is low or it even transforms into a loss.
---------------------------------

MG procs can proc poisons too, as the screenshot I had uploaded on the first page showed. That's the sole reason I went for DP/IP. Otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it.

If this is true you should be seeing poison procs inside the chain mastery procs or immediately after them and I did not witness this thusfar. Could you provide a screen? And even if such things would happen you guys need to understand both poisons have a ppm that is fixed and they do not proc with each weapon attack but with the closest weapon attack that follows after the hidden cooldown is exhausted.

As far as I know, main hand auto-attacks can miss while dual-wielding. That's the reason why I'm putting hit over haste, because it will convert into more MG procs, which convert into more chainprocs, which convert into more Combat Potency procs, which converts into more SS & Evi, which combined with MG converts into more DP(IP) procs when using the DP/IP.

Again I am repeating the poisons have a ppm and thus a hidden cooldown, they proc on the 1st attack after the cooldown is exhausted. The best evidence to this is instant poison doing more damage overall although it has lower listed dmg on the tooltip.
As for the mainhand attack you seem to be right: http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_wield however the mainhand damage still suffers less penalties than offhand does so it still remains superior. I will edit my upper post.

[dominitian]

I am talking about pure damage boost there, the potion is less damage than 4-5 SS and 1 Evi. The only conditions where this would not be true are damage boost phases like Magmaw and Maloriak. And if you're in vanish and the combat does not fade to allow for reset of potion you lose the dps you gain by using that said potion. Ofc you can argue that it's needed on Chimaeron last phase because killing the boss faster would grant you less room for failure, but if you produce the vanish during the last phase and stay out of combat for more than 5 seconds you will be losing dps. So in conclusion use with caution and learn where and when you can use and gain an advantage and where the advantage is low or it even transforms into a loss.

you don`t need to stay out of combat 5 sec ! just until the potions cd resets, that can`t be more than 2-3 sec and if you time it right you won`t be losing dps but gain, like i said in my previous post think of council last phaze when all 4 mini boss apear and form monstrosity you have at least 7 sec, same for magmaw when he swalows tank and you have to chain, maloriak after blue phaze if you`re not on the boss interrupting, atramedes after air phase ,etc
time it every time with http://www.wowhead.com/item=62463 and you are on for a dps treat