That doesn't answer why Lordaeron *specifically* is so strict about what class/spec is allowed into a raid compared to any other Warmane server.
If it;s really this bad, then how is Boomie/Resto Druid on Lordaeron? Are they good enough to be wanted in a 10-25 man raid?
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Edited: May 19, 2022
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As I stated, Shaman DPS specs are pretty much, even in regular PUG's, the last option (will ignore other non-meta Frost Mages etc. as they'd never be taken to raids). That's naturally assuming you already have all the meta classes that you need. Otherwise you would look for that one specific class. Only then a Shaman DPS could be considered. No matter if it's Naxx geared ICC run or fully decked out raid progression, but you have one slot available and you need it filled.
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Boomkins are usually quite high in demand due to the amount of utility they provide. Resto Druids on the other hand are, once again, considered a meme spec which someone might swap to for vdw or sindra (if another boomkin is present), but they're literally never seen in a regular setup unless it's the "whatever" spot frysharry mentioned in one of the already established 12/12 hc clearing guilds.
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Okay, let's do it this way. Here's a list of possible alt combinations I may wish to play. I want to play one where BOTH specs are desirable in a raid, or, failing that, one is desirable in a raid and the other is very good at soloing daily content.
Shaman: Enh/Ele, Enh/Resto, Ele/Resto (Engineering/Leatherworking)
Druid: Balance/Resto
Hunter: BM/Marksman (Engineering/Leatherworking)
Warlock: Demo/Affli
Between these, I'm leaning towards Enh/Resto Shaman and BM/Marksman Hunter, both Orc.
I still haven't gotten an answer as to why Lordaeron specifically is so adamant about what specific classes/specs get into a raid, because I don't see this kind of class/spec bias in Frostmourne or Icecrown.
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Buffed bosses usually enforce more streamlined raids with less chaff, which is enforced by the top guilds and passed down to most others by default.
Let's give an example: Marrowgar on Icecrown has 7m hp and a 10 minute enrage timer in 10 man non-heroic. Lordaeron he has 12.5m and enrages after 6 minutes in the equivalent raid.
So for Icecrown you need an average of ~2k dps assuming 2 tanks and 2 healers in 10 man - a total of 11.7k raiddps is sufficient.
Lordaeron you need about 5.8k per dps to do the job, assuming the same setup. Close to 35k dps total is required.
Considering there's no 30% buff you're facing the "icecrown equivalent" of 7500 dps required just for marrowgar on 10 man. There's also no donateable gear on lordaeron, so you're unlikely to get lod weapons or rs trinkets to boost up your dps easily.
For 25 man heroic we'd talk 2.7k dps (assuming 19 dps) vs 6.9k dps required. (or almost 9k dps "icecrown equivalent")
Lordaeron is just this: Harder to progress. Not having 30% increased dps, health and healing and no donateable gear sets the bar significantly higher for the average player. If you're one of the top 1% of the server you laugh at those numbers either way. If you're not the usual approach of many guilds/pugs is taking "the best possible", which rules out quite a lot of specs.
Btw the competitive guilds on frostmourne also don't just take anyone, the ones who just enjoy the progression over and over again do because the idea behind their raids is fundamentaly different. Also Frostmourne due to being seasonal has many different specs being good or bad depending on which gear is available.
The beef between lordaeron and icecrown about "which realm is best" you can safely ignore. There's some people who believe they're entitled due to playing on lordaeron, there's some who can't stand these opinions and think they have to retaliate at any given opportunity. Most of the actual "old guys" on lordaeron will just tell you this: If you just want to have some fun start on icecrown, if you want to have a challenge you can give lordaeron a shot. But don't except much acceptance for "oddball" ideas.Edited: May 19, 2022
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I hope that's not the reason why so many guilds on Lordaeron are Loot Council, because LC is a system I absolutely despise. I've seen far too many guilds tear themselves apart on Live using LC, either because there was a rotten egg on the council who ruined it for everyone, or too many butthurt players salty about never getting loot.
I don't trust it, so any guild I end up with has to use either DKP/EPGP, or some other system. That way I know it's fair, that if I attend every raid and am consistent, I will eventually get gear, and it won't go to someone else less deserving because someone has friends on a circle of neckbeards.
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DKP attracts people who only come for loot (and leave once they got what they want), often hurting progression over time
It also can hurt the group progression by allowing "bad" players to get some very important loot that could have been used by players who actually carry
Not to mention some specs need items more than other, which DKP system completely ignores
Sorry if it sounds harsh but why do you so badly want to play on Lorda ?
You hate loot council and class prio, you hate being forced into optimal comps, why not just go Icecrown?
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Even though the main topic of this thread regards shamans and their non-resto specs, I'd like to bump very quickly and express my opinion on the different loot systems.
If you think about it, all of them have some kind of flaws, but the responsibility to make them fair for al participants falls on the players and the guild leaders (GM and officers).
With DKP, old core members can hoard dkp and save it for the juicy items, whereas new members or newly promoted cores won't have the same amount and have to wait for the others to spend it first. In DKP, there's also the bad thing that when a desirable item drops for the first item, the first person to win it would have to pay an absurd amount of dkp, whereas the second, the third etc would pay less due to less competitors. This was the case in my Frostmourne guild back in season 2. http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40256 dropped and an arms warrior won it with 200 dkp. On the next run, someone else won the trinket with 60 ot 70 dkp (my memories are a bit foggy, but I can recall that the second winner spent less than 100 dkp). On the third run, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40256 dropped in abundance, and many won it for free (myself included ^^).
With EPGP, if you roll on 2 or 3 items, your priority drops immensely and it will take a lot of time before you obtain a new item.Spoiler:Show
With Loot Council, the biggest issue oftentimes is the lack of transparency and creating the FEELING of false evaluation of the players and their performance. With no points to acquire, a person doesn't know what his priority on a certain item is and what his real chances of obtaining said item are. I will add that with no points to gain (dkp or ep), there's also less incentive to do lower tier raids (e.g. Ulduar so that healers would obtain the Valanyr fragments) and stimulate guild activity.
With Suicide Kings, the items aren't distributed to players, who contribute the most in the raids.
With /rolling, the biggest issue is... Do I really need to explain why RNG deciding who would win a certain item is bad?
So, yeah. All of the aforementioned loot systems have their own weaknesses and can create drama. However, as I've said above, there are ways to make them fairer, and the responsibility for that falls on the players.
I will start with EPGP, since it was done perfectly in my first serious guild. In order to deal with players hoarding EP and having low priority from obtaining too many items, my former GM implemented a weekly decay (16% if I recall correctly), so that we wouldn't be discouraged to roll on small upgrades and be completely locked out from the juicy gear pieces. Not only that, but if there was only one person, who selected MS and had no competitors, he received the item with a halved GP. On top of that, the GM also rewarded exceptional plays and guild-first kills with extra EP, while of course sanctioning major mistakes with GP. In some rare occasions, when a certain player with the wrong spec wanted to obtain an item, which was more suitable for someone else, an occasional LC was enforced.
Something similar can be done with DKP. You can have a ceiling, so that you don't hoard your points, and a weekly/monthly reset. My former FM guild leader now rewards players with extra DKP, who don't die in boss fights from silly mistakes. If someone does the opposite or ninja pulls, he is not rewarded with any DKP (instead of losing it), which imho is the better psychological approach as it creates a positive environment instead. I will give an allegorical example with the resting mechanic. Quote from wowwiki:
Now we get to Loot Council. A former guildie of mine said that "it's the best loot system if done well", and that underlined statement is key. In my very first LC guild, we had the following criteria:In the beta version of the original game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than a few hours in a row. Experience gained was divided by 50% after few hours. However, beta-testers did not like it and rest was implemented, giving instead 200% of experience for few hours, which Blizzard's developers later reported as being the "same numbers seen from the opposite point of view".
- performance;
- attendance;
- guild rank;
- how big/small the upgrade is for one person in comparison to the others;
- loot equality (i.e. not giving one person too many items and depriving others).
The loot council members kept track of who was absent from a certain raid and DIDN'T warn them in advance. In an excel table, it was also written who had won what, in order to acknowledge loot equality. We linked our items in the chat, and the officers decided who gets the said item based on the aforementioned criteria. Tbh, it worked well. Occasionally, even trials and new members won items from time to time.
Again, as you can see, no loot system is perfect per se. Players have to organise it well, in order for it to be seen positively.Edited: May 20, 2022 Reason: corrected some typos
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I do hate Loot Council, and I don't understand why it's the overwhelming favorite for guilds on Lordaeron. But if people say it works well for this particular server, I am willing to give it a try.
But I don't hate class priority or even cookie-cutter builds in most cases, I just don't think it's a healthy mentality for a server to drive itself on "must have every little advantage possible to progress." That starts to harken back to the days of Vanilla WoW, where every raid forced you to bring a grocery list of consumables, from potions and food to runes and other weird items that you didn't need. You didn't need every little buff possible to survive MC40. I think players should still have the freedom to play whatever they want without getting completely roadblocked out of progression, as long as it's "viable" for said progression (and by viable, I mean it puts out enough damage individually to meet what is needed from a raid DPS to overcome a fight).
I like challenge, that's why Lordaeron interests me (and having finally hit 80, I don't see myself leaving anytime soon). But I also feel like people min-max it a little too hard at times.Edited: May 20, 2022
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Suboptimal classes and specs are still entirely viable on Lordaaron and I've seen great players make Hpriest, Enha, BM hunt or Rdruid shine
But all those players first played something very standard, up to a point where they demonstrated that the content wasn't really a challenge and that they needed some extra spice to make it fun
They all beat the content first by tryharding, and in doing so gained trust from their mates/guilds to try something else.
I sometimes play "fun" offspecs too, but only with friends and if they agree, it kinda feels like it's a matter of respecting the other players you raid with
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From that point of view, that makes a lot more sense. I don't ever want to intentionally drag my teammates down.
But I'm also not going to play something I don't like, so my selection is limited. Thankfully I like Prot Pally, always have. Resto Shaman would probably be fun to learn too. I guess worst case scenario I could just reserve Elemental if the guild really needs an RDPS (or a Shaman in general, or a ToW), and use it for leveling/soloing.Edited: May 20, 2022
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What works better for a Resto Shaman, dropping Blessing of the Eternals for Elemental Weapons 3, or dropping Elemental Weapons altogether for an extra point to put into Cleanse Spirit?
Seems stupid to just have 1 point in Elemental Weapons, feels like an all or nothing talent to me, and I can see Cleanse Spirit being situationally useful because of the curse removing effect. On the other hand, by swapping Blessing of the Eternals for Elemental Weapons 3, I lose a little bit of crit but gain more raw healing power from Earthliving Weapon, trading a little burst for a little more consistency.
I'm guessing people don't normally take Cleanse Spirit because of Cleansing Totem?Edited: May 28, 2022
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You must have cleanse spirit in irder to dispell in one click. Totem us for your group only + in raids you have more important water totems to use. Bonus from elemental weapons is very minor, while all talents from restoration tree are very important for you and should be maxed.
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So this build would be pretty cookie-cutter for a Resto then?
https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#hZ0xxhZx0euIeoxkrIRt:0LsMcz
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Regarding talents, yeah. There is inly one right build for Rshammy. Can't say about glyphs, imho they are thing of players choice
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