Mana sustain equates to overall higher DPS. It doesn't need to do relevant damage to beasts when it's restoring a quarter of your mana bar for a single global.
I don't pad with MS in P1 since the only relevant damage in P1 is boss damage, but YMMV. Even if you stand near melee like I do, you still have enough time to Dance on MS. And the "damage loss" is significantly less than regenerating the equivalent mana by sitting in Viper spamming steadies. It's like saying, "yeah well dropping Explosive Trap on small adds on RS25HC on Viper is a DPS loss, so I am going to run 2/2 Rapid Recoup". It's patently absurd. Yes it's strictly, technically a reduction in damage in that instance, but compared to how long you would have to sit in Viper spamming Steady to recover the same mana, it's comparatively a huge DPS gain. It's about the totality of the fight and not just what happens in that instance. If that was the case, MP5 gemming would be BIS because we would never have to go into Viper.
I don't know the gear your have on your Hunter, but we can look at our DPSs at the same time LK starts casting Fury of Frostmourne and I am up about 2k DPS over you and about 400k in raw damage. We both got grabbed once, your raid has 2 extra DPS over us (we 4 heal & 2 tanks), but you guys killed last Raging and had an extra room. For all of the free mana restoration you get for not having to swap to Viper, for the padding you do in P1 with MS, and the small amount of extra cleave you got from killing last Raging, you should theoretically be higher in DPS, if not raw damage, but you're not. Your kill somehow look longer than ours which would lower DPS at the end, but even if we look at where we killed the boss in your video, you're still under 1.5k DPS and about 900k raw damage.
I don't understand the point of dropping a tank and a healer just to kill slower than Lordareon guilds killing with 2 tank and 4 healers, but hey, just Icecrown things ;)
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Edited: December 21, 2021
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1-mana sustain on a fight that lasts 2 min? that doesnt make sense my guy.
2- thats the point of rapid recup, limiting viper usage to barely none. which results in no steady shots under viper, and also no autoshots dps loss (your main dps)
3-i dont even need to switch in rs, literally no aspect switch, end with usually around 10%.
4- you cant compare raid dps via 2 different raid circumstances lol, 1st, we had deaths and some sub-par dps, saying you ended ''2k higher dps'' while we arent even using the same meter settings makes sense my guy, my meters lowers dps inside fmc. because you're using active time and not effective. thats why your dps after exiting fmc is literally the same as when you entered rofl. but if you wanna talk like that, well just look at p1 and all the way until i get grabbed, im above you lol. but its ok you dont even know about active vs effective meters lol. and as you literally mentionned, its normal im under 900k raw damage, we have literally 2 more dps than you rofl, which compensates for the extra overall damage you did because u have to divide around 7m each extra dps towards all the other dps, but i guess this doesnt go into your brain, let me rephrase for your small brain: if u do 7.5m overall dmg with 21 dps and u do 7.5m overall dmg with 19 dps, the one that did 7.5m with 21 dps did way better lol.
also i like how you're bashing us clearing icc 0% with solo tank 3 heal, while you clear 0% with 2 tank and 4 healers, the point is having challenge, but i guess you only settle for easy fights.
you also say we kill slower than lordaeron guilds, while you took exactly 11 min to go from 100 to 10% with no deaths while we had 2 deaths since 2nd trans,
2 less dps gave us an extra fmc which just takes way longer time off cuz you're just jerking off, wouldve been faster than 11 if both alive xd.
hmu ingame if u wanna race, else, youre just a lOMEGALULrdaeron andy
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This actually caught me off guard because I know for sure I have my Skada set on Effective Time. I checked other vods from other kills and it's showing the same thing, acting as Active Time. Double checked all my accounts' Skadas and they're all on Effective Time, but I reset the settings just in case it bugged or something, because it definitely shouldn't be working as it is.
You're padding on ghouls. I can tell you on one hand how many times I've used MS in phase 1 since beginning to farm it nearly 3 years ago.
Not bashing, just pointing out that it doesn't make sense to cut a tank and/or healers if you're not going to play around the increased DPS. Having watched your vod a couple more times, I guess you guys weren't going for speedkills and was just doing a spicier normal kill, which, hey, if I played on Icecrown I would be down to do too. I just don't understand the reason of cutting tanks and healers if the goal isn't necessarily killing LK the fastest you can, but rather making it arbitrarily more difficult for tanks/healers for seemingly no reason. At least with a proper speed comp kill, P2 lasts for one, maybe two valk waves; in your VOD, with only one person dead, your DPS is barely better than ours and you play the same number of Valks. Of course the target prioritization and class value when building a comp for 1 tank/3 heal vs 2 tank/4 heal is different, but the outcome is nearly identical, except it's harder on healers and the tank.
Funnily enough this actually speaks to a point about the spec, which is: if you're planning on a faster kill, why wouldn't Rapid Recoup lose value, as you stated, the reason Hunters go OOM is because of Volley spamming in P2? If the goal is to get through these phases faster, then you logically should use less mana overall, so my question is why would you not put the TSA point into Improved Barrage for more damage instead of RR? If you guys had everyone alive and pushed P2 one valk wave faster, you actually wouldn't have third set of CDs in second transition. They would be coming off CD in first room. You would be almost guaranteed to have to dip into Viper for more than a Steady to get through second transition since you don't have the crutch of the 40% max mana from RR. You also still wouldn't have enough DPS to push one room, so you're still playing second room and losing a round of CDs, unless you are planning to use CDs outside of lust/execute, which further diminishes the value of RR by a great deal, as the only time it's actually valuable is after first transition and in second transition, since you would go straight into first room with the last time you used CDs being the beginning of P2. So you would be giving up 2% crit on Steady and 4% crit on AiS/MS for mana recovery at one point in a fight where mana isn't actually an issue because of Aspect Dancing. Ironically, if you were planning on playing 3 valk waves, then you could probably just get by Aspect Dancing in P2 to get you through to P3 without ever actually casting a single Steady in Viper.
Admittedly I don't usually change my spec away from the standard do-everything Trap or normal 7/57/7 spec unless I'm participating in a speed kill or something special, so I will be sure to try the 2/2 RR spec after the Christmas break as I never would usually consider putting any points into RR, since MM has the highest crit modifier in this expansion and an extra 4% crit on MS/AiS is juicy, and managing mana without RR is completely fine.
I would come play on Icecrown but I don't have a geared toon there unfort :)Edited: December 21, 2021
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''You're padding on ghouls. I can tell you on one hand how many times I've used MS in phase 1 since beginning to farm it nearly 3 years ago.''
so you just admitted to not minmaxing output.
wont even bother reading the rest.
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LOL, oh you're an actual special character. does standing in melee in the first 5 seconds of the fight while under potion, lust, and rapid fire, not shooting a single steady or autoshot count as "minmaxing output" to you? I didn't see a single volley in p1 since you're "minmaxing output". you should be spamming volley when there's 4 or more targets, but I didn't see any volley!
I was trying to figure you out this whole time, but this post gives me the fullest picture of any post you've made here.Edited: December 21, 2021
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theres a difference between volley and multishot lol, multishot is already in your rotation because of aimed shot, all it is is an improved gcd. but hey, its ok you play in the best guild in lordaeron omegalul
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Your own words, you're not "minmaxing output". Volley gives more output on 4 or more targets than single target rotation with or without multishot, and since you're one tanking all ghouls and shambling will be stacked, so it's actually 5 targets, increasing the output of this super uber minmax technique even more!
****ing kek
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its not maximizing output if that output is ******ness like you mentionned, changing aimed shot for MS is literally maximizing LK output while having extra, but your small lordaeron brain doesnt seem to understand this as you also think solotank3heal is ******ed challenge, stay hardstuck.
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maximizing LK output by doing objectively less single target damage to the only useful target in P1 KEK. you gain literally nothing from using MS over AiS in P1, especially if you don't even use the excuse of managing mana, besides padding damage on ghouls so you can gloat about non-useful damage lmfao. do you think this is ascension where you can glyph multishot so all 3 shots hit the same target LOL. me telling you to use volley is equally as ******ed as you suggesting MS is more output on single target than aimed shot. you're a literal clown.
you have such a massive ego for being such an average player. maybe all those meme 1 tank 3 heal runs went to your head. nobody gives a **** about how few tanks or how few healers or whatever meme dps composition you run if its horribly unoptimized for minmaxing. intentionally knee-capping the ceiling of how well your raid can perform is not hardcore or impressive, it's meaningless dick waving, just like how you're gloating about padding dps on ghouls and don't even realize how ****ing stupid you are by proclaiming this as some high skill gameplay. how someone like you gets to how you treat people who dare suggest you're doing something wrong is beyond me. textbook dunning kruger.Edited: December 22, 2021
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my guy, no wonder you're hardstuck at 4heal 2 tank, you say multishot is padding meters? thats like telling warriors not to cleave ghouls lol, its not about padding meters, these ghouls have to die at some point, padding meters is using LB on in-the-air valks, but its ok my guy, you'll get there one day.
also for calling me an average player, you're free to come race me anyday, but dont go ahead and tell people how to play when you cant even play properly yourself.
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also, i might be teaching you something, but aimed shot and multishot is the same exact ability with the same exact coefficients, the only reason you use aimed shot on ST rotation is because MS has 0.5s cast time, doesnt give 50% healing reduction (only matters on anub really) and doesnt benefit from Marked for Death, Imp SS and Piercing Shots, tho on any kind of 2+ targets, MS overweights by a big margin. but guess you're just again, a lordaeron andy
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here if you dont believe me they have the same coefficients (talents aside)
https://gyazo.com/195d9dd2876382fdfe42ffa91ac7ad5d
https://gyazo.com/bc613d05671817988a5997eb82b6df2c
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explosive trap = padding on ghould btw. trap spec btw.
im out of here
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warriors have a reason for cleaving (actual cleave vs HS) as it indirectly increases their ST. hunters gain no increase in ST from MS.
"multishot doesn't benefit from these three talents which massively increase AiS's damage over MS on ST for MM but you should still use MS because muh minmax output"
yeah man, just a casual 40% bonus crit modifier on top of the already highest crit modifier in the game. can you remind the class what hunters' #3 damage source on any fight is in ICC tier? no big deal there. just a casual 5% damage increase as well. they're the EXACT same spell except for all of the talents that make AiS significantly better than MS on ST, which you gloss over as no big deal lmao
"look at these coefficients, but ignore the impact of the talents specifically affecting AiS because it would demonstrate what a colossal padding retrade I am"
LOOK AT THE COEFFIEICNTS GUYS!! THEY'RE LITERALLY THE SAME!!!!!!!!!
use volley then. it's more output, right? i mean the ghouls have to die at some point; the shambling too, right? I mean it's literally more output than any ST with or without MS. MS won't hit all three ghouls, so it's a loss of output to you if you don't use volley. if only other classes had cleave baked into their rotation that they didn't have to gimp their single target damage for in a phase where the only relevant damage is single target damage on the boss. WHEW
since you love numbers so much, maybe you should grab an addon like rangedisplay so you can see when you're sitting inside the boss and not firing a single autoshot or steady shot for 5 seconds while you casually drop your trap. you're an actual ****ing clown lmao
just a lordareon andy after all. look at this icecrown chad with his sick movement. you're a lordareon andy and not an icecrown chad if you don't sit afk inside of a boss for 5 seconds under lust, rapid fire and berserking. also aspect dancing is a dps loss because one or two autoshot might be reduced, but not firing any autoshots with like 90% haste is how you minmax output btw.
wow you've been here this entire time and you didn't once realize I never said trap spec was padding, I wonder why that is?
for the record, you can freely aspect dance in melee. you would know this of course because you're a better player than myself and you just misspoke here, but just incase any other viewers of this thread want demonstration that you can instead of just hollow talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdt-VUbRTLI
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final edit: so we had a discussion on another platform and we came to an understand. i was going to leave it as is, but rereading this thread and seeing how I was treated, I think it's fair to let anyone browsing understand fmtansei: as it turns out the reason why fmtansei thought you shouldn't use aimed shot over multishot in phase 1 of LK is because he didn't know that piercing shots roll like ignite and other dot-stacking effects. he stated, "piercing shot will always be on unless u cant crit. its literally like re-applying rake with 4 seconds left as feral". he asked me, "why would I use aimed shot when piercing shots is already on the boss from chimera/steady earlier in the rotation?". so for all of those people out there who didn't know: yes, piercing shots roll like ignite and if you use multishot in p1 of LK, you are padding, as the only relevant damage in phase 1 for the raid, much less hunters, is LK. additionally, no, rapid recouperation is not "mandatory" for any content; aspect dancing is by far the most effective form of regenerating mana for hunters, gaining a ridiculous amount of mana for nearly none or absolutely no dps loss. if your goal is to push your personal record as high as you can, hey, go for it, have fun. but to have an ego the size that he has and to be so patently misinformed about something so fundamental to the spec, as well as peddle bad information, is simply outrageous and has no place being unpunished in the public sphere. for being part of a community that routinely denounces and ****talks people like awbee and other icecrown streamers for being garbage players and giving out bad advice, he surely should look in the mirror.
furthermore, he goes onto state, "95% of the retrades i talk with on forum are people who dont know anything, so i tend to just insult them right away, its even worst in the paladin and priest section, and for the lordaeron part, yeah everyone who comes from lordaeron always say icecrown players are trash". now I didn't really have an opinion of icecrown players in general as every realm has its newbies, baddies, average guys, weekend warriors, above average guys and elitists, but when someone as high and mighty as this, who can speak so confidently on a topic, and be so blatantly wrong, can treat others so poorly on his first interaction with players for merely insinuating that they might be wrong about something, that really reflects on the self-described top 5% of icecrown, the "non-retrade". when I initially heard him recommend that Rapid Recouperation [RR] is "mandatory for LoD and/or RS25HC", funnily enough my first inclination was, "oh he's an awbee viewer" since the only people I hear preaching about needing RR are from icecrown. and so I will quote myself from an earlier post here, as it sums up my feelings before I had a conversation with this guy on another platform just happens to reflect my mindset now.
Edited: December 23, 2021
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Hello :) Was an interesting debate. Rare to see on the Hunter forum. I thought I was the only one doing aspect dancing. Thought I was cool discovering it myself randomly a few years back :D And yes, I feel like it poses the best way for a hunter to retain his mana. Yet in contrast to you guys I favour the following spec:
https://wotlkdb.com/?talent#cxbZceVoRhzGIctuiox0c:fLi
Basically trap spec with lack of Survival Tactics in favour of Improved Barrage and Improved Steady Shot with one point in Rapid Recuperation. The latter just as a little bonus at the start to avoid aspect dancing while having all the procs and randomly killing some mobs while doing aoe and getting some extra mana from it.
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