Dude nobody is going to quit over this lmao, wow player base consists of the most addicted people you can find especially after spending 10 months playing Classic which is why Blizzard is able to release low quality products continuously. It is more likely people upset about this will stop playing PvP on Onyxia (though I believe a lot of people in here never had the intention to actively play arena either) and commit to raiding only but that will prove the point that Onyxia needs Blackrock's activity to keep games going.
Do not split the ladder but exclude Blackrock from end of season rewards if it makes Onyxia players happy to fly around shattrath with a gladiator drake at the end of the season I personally could not care less about it. I just want to spam queue without being slaved to rng drops, 20h raiding, or the favor of some weirdo loot council just to get 2 pve items. If Blackrock will not exist we will go back to full account sharing meta which results in even more degenerate gameplay.
Rating requirements on too many items could backfire as they would increase the gap between players even more and if we do not get a wotlk arena style mmr system the last thing we want is bis geared players remaking teams non stop.
Another possibility would be timegating item progression on Blackrock as it is done with the item store and release items after they have been acquired X times on Onyxia or whatever.
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Member
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Member
i think they mentioned that Blackrock will only be launched after TBC is out and enough players are 70 or something along those lines
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Member
" Blackrock TBC will not launch on the same day as Onyxia goes TBC.
It will be launched when the realm has established at level 70 when the arena season starts.
So no "head start" for Blackrock and an upper hand for Onyxia considering having access to heroics and raids. "
Page 10.
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Member
This is what should end all of this argurement, if anything Onyxia will be at an advantage.
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Member
Im gonna summarize my thoughts and arguments about cross realm arenas in one final post then:
- Time to level up to 70 is a major stumbling block for any PvP alts on Ony when you can get instant 70 on Blackrock. Fastest way on Ony is donating 20 coins for instant 60, afterwards you would still have to level 5-8h through RDF if you get a solid group, or pay coins/gold again to get boosted. If you then add the basic time needed to get decent dungeon gear on 70 so you can start farming PvP items (and not get farmed yourself), you are already at around 20h+ and coins spent just to start out on Onyxia. Without these alts we will have mid and long term reduced PvE activity in dungeons/starter raids as people will play mostly one main char on Onyxia and raidlog, leaving empty zones and guilds outside of raid time because they have no real incentive to play alts here. It could become worse over time, as catching up in further phases becomes even more time consuming on Onyxia, compared to Blackrock. One might argue people are gonna still level up some alts for profs or the love of raiding, which is true - but most of us dont need to lvl alts above 60 for profs within TBC, and the amount of people raiding with more than two chars per week is most likely in the sub 5% area.
- If we assume some people play on Onyxia in Arenas, theyll always need way more time to get gear, with a big RNG factor. Any decent piece of gear used in PvP will be contested by at least three people per raid, if not more. First you have to be prepared (gear/consumables) to join a raid, then get a raid together, clear it, and in the end IF it drops (which is a big IF), you need to win it. On the other side, lets go through how you can do it on Blackrock: If im not abusing anything, ill join and immediatelly hit BG´s (if smart, premade with Blackrock people for higher win chance because their skill level is on average better than the one from the average player base on Onyxia) to buy myself any available upgrades. Then ill check which gear i need to buy with arena points and make a calculation how many arena points ill need and according to that get up some rating in the first week, after which i just need to maintain that rating and do my 10 games per week for the flush. This way im almost guaranteed to get the gear i want for the final weeks to push towards a certain ranking. Ofc this wont apply to all people (ill get to the average player base in some later point), but as an above average player i will get my gear. While some Ony player will have to rely on RNG for the PvE gear, potentially never reaching the desired gear in one phase. Not to mention if you dont get it, in the next season youll have to buy it off the coin store, or spend more hours raiding to get what you want. While the price for the same item on Blackrock will most likely be reduced with the season advancing. I see this as one of the hardest things to deal with in terms of fairness, especially taking into consideration how many people around Onyxia didnt even get to clear every raid, yet alone farm them.
- It is always gonna be harder to find arena mates on Ony, simply due to the time investment needed to get to the stage of playing arenas. With further PvP activity being outsourced to Blackrock (PvP alts mainly), we will see a downfall which would confirm that Onyxia doesnt have enough PvP activity on its own - but not because of people not willing to play. Its simply due to our nature that if you give us an easier path, we will take that path. Maybe with a separate ladder people would still feel its worth to play PvP alts on Onyxia in order to compete for ranks and rating among friends and guilds, but thats a big maybe.
- Sniping, scripting, wintrading and ruining is gonna be super easy via Blackrock, as creating new accounts is easy and you can start right away without the burden of leveling or anything. I dont wanna publicly explain how this can be done in an easy and fast manner, but we all know it is gonna happen.
- Increased toxicity: While being an ahole on a normal realm can cost you reputation and harm your overall progress, as Blackrock player you can do whatever you want, you only rely on having 1-2 teammates for different brackets, or you just find new ones over and over which you never really bond with like on a progress realm. The incentive to start on Onyxia is already lower than some instant 70 pvp realm, and after the start of the realm it will be harder to get new people and replace the ones which quit due to various reasons. And from my POV there are three big reasons for people to quit: Burning out (due to Toxicity, too much playing, general unhappiness), getting bored (low activity on the realm, no new milestones available) or new irl obligations.
- Maybe the worst, yet most important argument from my POV: People on Onyxia are not set on tryharding in PvP, at least not the majority. Queuing into experienced PvP players (ofc they gonna have more experience on average if they have to gear up through BG and arenas, its automatically more practice and experience) is gonna make their PvP time way less joyful, therefore ruining their casual PvP experience. No memecomps, no playing with friends just for the sake of fun, just pain and suffering. While on Onyxia alone they maybe could reach 1800 with dumb comps and playing with casual friends, theyll get stomped by Blackrock teams because 80% of their games will be against Blackrock players which play to win mostly and know it better. And while being hardstuck 1800 with a friend and troll comp is something which many people can endure and enjoy, being hardstuck on1.5k is gonna harm every casual players ego and theyll just stop eventually.
Perceived unfairness due to this change and bad communication from the team (no one mentioned this a year ago) are just gonna foster more hatred when loosing against Blackrock teams, therefore discouraging any PvP even further. And we all know that its the casual playerbase which keeps the realm alive, not the top 5% skilled and tryhard playerbase.
- In the end if no one plays PvP on Onyxia and everyone makes alts on Blackrock its obviously gonna "prove" how Onyxia itself doesnt have enough active PvP, just further nurturing negative emotions because of this change which initially would also contribute to the downfall. Any combo player is just gonna raidlog as activity overall drops on the server and we are getting back to the scenario where only 20 guilds clean endgame content because everyone quit by then.
If id get a vote on this, id recommend the following: Start S1 with complete separation of the two realms, so Onyxia has a chance to prove it can stand on its own feet. Without this, there never will be a chance to prove it, as people simply will choose the easier way right away. Worst case scenario you can still activate the cross realm function mid seasons, but i seriously doubt its gonna be needed.
If this is not possible, at least let us have separate ladders - so we can convince people to play their PvP alts on Onyxia among their friends and guildies, eventually proving we can stand on our own feet.
And at the end of the day, please try and work on the communication. If its a question of manpower, im pretty sure there would be enough suitable people to do it on a pro bono basis, just so that we stop feeling left out of everything and finding out things randomly.
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Overwatcher
It's hardly that much of an insult, and in some cases I'd say it's even been fitting.
There's nothing to be spun, at least on our end. We have been doing this for years, we have had Burning Crusade servers, and metrics have told the ones calling the shots that it's needed. But, once again, I invite Onyxia players to prove that was incorrect by having an active and healthy PvP player base.
Yes, we are still discussing finer details, and trying to make it so there is an equivalency in effort and/or time is a big topic. Even trying to weight in randomness has been considered. The general aim is for Blackrock to not have it easier or faster, just to do it on a PvP-focused manner.
The rewards are already separate, there will be no Blackrock character taking rewards away from Onyxia.
Having two completely separate ladders as well is being discussed. There is a possibility, but nothing conclusive yet.
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Member
The rewards are whatever, idk if all blackrock players agree, but mounts mean basically nothing in comparison to the ability to play the game with a healthy field.
For the separate ladder idea, just confirming that Onyxia players would still lose/gain mmr and rating when facing blackrock teams, but it's just the results that would be separated, right? Pretty sure that's what the idea is, but wanted to confirm because otherwise we'd see Onyxia players queueing up, seeing a blackrock team, hitting them once then afk'ing out out of spite.
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Member
That should be the case, cross-realm but different ladder. Ofc games needs to be played, otherwise you could also disable cross-realm itself...
Edited: September 11, 2024 Reason: typo
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Member
I do not know when you last played TBC private server arenas actively but these people joining Blackrock for a more enjoyable PvP experience would join you on Onyxia as well if Blackrock did not exist just on accounts provided to them by PvE players as it is usually the case and stomp people using 20 different accounts.
RMT is also always a factor for end of season rewards on progressive realms including account sales and other things more than it would be on an instant server.
And big lol at this main character syndrome you present, reputation in a virtual private server environment that is going to harm your ability to play with different people?
I am fairly certain the majority of the player base does not care if someone slandered you in world chat once and it hurt your ego especially considering Onyxia being international including various people across the world.
Sniping, scripting (TBC is a grandpa game with very limited scripting use) and wintrading could happen on Onyxia as well since it is not that much effort to level given you can multibox without limitations to create throwaway accounts. The amount of naked 60's right now is insane.
To monitor this we have a visible match history in the armory and a spectator tool recording every game played.
Separate ladders might end up resulting in both realms having low activity or make players move on to the more active one, but it could be worth testing.
If you ask me I would also appreciate adding the alternative gear path using honor and arena points to buy items for Onyxia in some form so you would still have to level and do the roleplay part but you can decide how you want to approach the endgame gearing.
Not sure how difficult it would be to manage this since getting "double" the loot would be possible if you actively raid as well. The major flaw is the game design by Blizzard though, they provided us with a game where getting the best possible gear for PvP only requires wearing mostly items acquired by completing PvE content.Edited: September 11, 2024
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Overwatcher
Yes, if they do get separated, the results of cross-server matches would still affect ratings and whatever else of all involved.
I'd personally be more worried about people in Blackrock creating disposable accounts to troll Onyxia instead anyway.
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Member
It's a fair concern. How much did we see that on the WotLK version? There may be 1-2 people that are trolls that try something like this, but needing to honor grind for even a basic PvP set will automatically discourage people. But it's unrealistic to think that NOBODY would do this. It's just gauging the actual impact.
Including both sides in the ladder, then seeing how that ladder looks after season 1 then adjusting if needed seems like a well-rounded approach. If it's all blackrock teams in the top 100 for any specific reason and you and the team feel like completely separating ladders is the play in order to give Onyxians the ability to fight for top spots, then that is what it is.
I suspect that we'll see plenty of Onyxians high up on the ladder, but that's all guessing at this point.
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Member
My post is just here to share my thoughts, im not entering any further discussion with players, irrelevant of their pro or contra view. But you just showed how clueless you are with this sentence.
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Member
Or use cheats
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Member
This is exactly your problem. Yet again you just type random message, which will be easily proven wrong by me now, like it has been done many times in this topic by many people, simply replying to your nonsense.
2200 rated player against 1800 player, sure you are right. But the issue starts when 2200 rated player with berserkers (or any good PvE items which is used in PvP, this is just an example) meets another 2200 rated player without that trinket (or any other good item). Then he has advantage by default and that is not fair. Stop comparing apples and oranges. When two similarly skilled Teams meet and one of them has better gear, they have advantage, simple as that. And gearing on Blackrock, where items are guaranteed, is easier, therefore advantageous compared to Onyxia.
You have been explained this many times in this topic and you still keep saying the same crap. Either you are stupid not to understand it or you understand this very well and you are simply trying to deceive people because it benefits your agenda, which is just free char and farm on Blackrock.
Again, this is straight up lie. How exactly is not enabling cross-realm arena gatekeeping people from playing TBC arenas? First of all, you can play arenas on Onyxia anytime. But most importantly you can still do that on Blackrock TBC, only without the help of Onyxia people.
This is another proof how TBC Blackrock needs Onyxia to survive. Regardless of the desperate effort of you and some individuals trying to deceive people saying is the opposite. And we all know this is the reason why you and other non-Onyxia people struggle so much to support the decision of this cross-realm.
You have been proved wrong so many times, on so many levels, by so many people in this topic that it is surprising you still dare to bark here. You have literally zero self reflection and you enjoy getting embarassed I guess.
Exactly this, which is the proper way of doing it. Why should couple of thousands people playing on Onyxia for months give chance to some randoms from Blackrock, who are not even playing here yet? The alternative is having Onyxia separated, real TBC experience and thrive in both PvP and PvE, just like it did up until now. It is very obvious from this topic how Blackrock needs Onyxia and not vice versa.
Sure, then release TBC on Onyxia with no cross- realm. And we will gladly show you how healthy the PvP player base is ;)
Anyway, I will say it for the last time. Is this cross-realm is enabled then Warmane is making a huge mistake. This is exactly what happened at start, when people realized the vanilla PvP system based on HK’s is super bad. There were 50+ pages topics too. How did it end? From 8k stable population we went to barely 4k. Now even less (which is of course not connected to the flawed PvP system anymore but rather because everyone is waiting for TBC at this point) By the way, same reason why PvP is not so active anymore.
People should learn from mistakes, and this applies to Warmane stuff too. By this cross-realm you will only make even more people quit. It is funny how some kids here are saying „oh wtf lol nobody will quit over this“, oh really? Like they did not quit over the vanilla PvP system? ? Get a clue before you post.
When Onyxia community is telling you, please don’t do it, you should listen. If you care about the player base. And I assume you do, because it also means more people donating, buying from shop and supporting Warmane in general.
Some GM’s, officers of the bigger guilds here already said they won’t accept this cross-realm and the only way of showing their disapprove is to quit playing. I agree, so will I. This might unfortunately impact our guilds in a negative way, resulting in guild disbands, making even more people quit. And the cycle of even more people quitting begins. You want to end up Onyxia TBC with 1k population? Then go ahead. This is not what we want, this is what you are forcing us to do with you decision, not respecting our opinions and wishes. As I said - you decide about us, without us. And the only argument left is "you don't like it, then don't play here". Yeah, I am sad there is no other option then. Since you don't even give us chance by making the Onyxia TBC separated and THEN if the PvP is not active as you would like, you can intervene and make cross-realm anytime.
And by the way yes, we are heartbroken to have been suddenly told about a change, which we never agreed on, which was never advertised before, especially 1 year ago when we decided to start playing on Onyxia, which was supposed to be Vanila - TBC - Wotlk blizzlike (with some tweaks like 25man raids) progression server, separated from other servers. And this especially applies becuase we have build a community here, invested months of our time and all of that based on ceartain "rules" and conditions of the server. Which are now suddenly being changed, even though we disagree with them and don't want them. There was literally not a single mention about some cross-realm arenas.
The only last chance is to implement split ladders. But even that won’t totally fix the major issue, which is that anyone who will want to play PvP (for fun or push ranks) will simply go make a char on Blackrock, rather than spending time and money on progressing a char on Onyxia. And this will again negatively impact Onyxia, because all those people could have been playing their alts on Onyxia instead, keeping dungeons and (older) raid content „live“.
Not even mentioning arena sniping with Blackrock chars and other BS.
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Member
Go read my post on item progression and arena flushes. Also, provide input on rating caps on trinkets. Then respond again.
