Paladins rolls for dbw for pvp

[Vilya]

Sure you can go with that, but this mindset can lead to **** outcomes. By that ligic after PP Warrior can take the Tiny abomination in a jar and both players end up with items that are not that good for them when they could have had their BIS.

Yes, it may cause the problems like this.
However, even if its not optimal, there still can be upgrade for some (f.e. 5.2k gs warrior in icc 25 with total **** trinket, changing it for 264ilvl Abomination in jar). So as long as its upgrade, its not aganist ninja policy, so why it should be consideraed wrong (or ninja)?

We all think like every player have complete base of Pre-BiS / BiS item in their head already. What about some new players, he have retri, have some 200ilvl trin, DBW dropped, he cant roll for it cause its BiS for other? So before joining any ICC/RS he should know about BiS items for him and other classes so he wont need on items like that?

I know sts/dbw are treated godlike, but imo it shouldnt. These are just regular items and as long as its upgrade for someone (no talking about GS, just actual upgrade in stats/dps), I think he should be able to roll for it.

[Disktrasa]

Yes, it may cause the problems like this.
However, even if its not optimal, there still can be upgrade for some (f.e. 5.2k gs warrior in icc 25 with total **** trinket, changing it for 264ilvl Abomination in jar). So as long as its upgrade, its not aganist ninja policy, so why it should be consideraed wrong (or ninja)?

It's not Ninja, Wrong for the warr who lost DBW but right for the Paladin, You can't make any rules about rolling for items thats not BiS, thats just absurd, Guild runs are compleately different though.

We all think like every player have complete base of Pre-BiS / BiS item in their head already. What about some new players, he have retri, have some 200ilvl trin, DBW dropped, he cant roll for it cause its BiS for other? So before joining any ICC/RS he should know about BiS items for him and other classes so he wont need on items like that?

I know sts/dbw are treated godlike, but imo it shouldnt. These are just regular items and as long as its upgrade for someone (no talking about GS, just actual upgrade in stats/dps), I think he should be able to roll for it.

Warriors, Paladins, Rogues, Death Knights, Enhancement Shamans, Feral Druids and Hunters, or lets just say every single class that uses AP uses those trinkets for BiS. That's why, They are hard to get due to a lot of people wanting them and not a lot of guilds do RS 25 Heroic

[Skoobydoo]

We all think like every player have complete base of Pre-BiS / BiS item in their head already. What about some new players, he have retri, have some 200ilvl trin, DBW dropped, he cant roll for it cause its BiS for other? So before joining any ICC/RS he should know about BiS items for him and other classes so he wont need on items like that?

That idea that new player with 200 ilv items will join 25m ICC is just unrealistic.

But i think you are missing the point. The problem is not with the paladin, but with the raid leader. As raid leader and master looter you should have basic idea which item are good for which class. When it comes to DBW and the Jar this is just common knowledge and any MS should know stuff like that. And this is not only about been BIS, there is many other trinkets that are better then DBW for paladin and easier to get. Before Frostmoure release i would have said this is really bad MS decision, but not ninja looting. However since on Frostmoure you get banned for rolling on suboptimal gear, i am not even sure could this be concider ninja looting or not because rules and decisions that admits make are so unclear.

Also i have a problem with "if its upgrade you can roll for it" logic in general. Do you think just because its a upgrade Warrior should roll together with hunters for bows/crossbows for example? Or should Hunters be rolling for Havoc's Call with rogues/enh/DK ?

[Vilya]

That idea that new player with 200 ilv items will join 25m ICC is just unrealistic.

But i think you are missing the point. The problem is not with the paladin, but with the raid leader. As raid leader and master looter you should have basic idea which item are good for which class. When it comes to DBW and the Jar this is just common knowledge and any MS should know stuff like that. And this is not only about been BIS, there is many other trinkets that are better then DBW for paladin and easier to get. Before Frostmoure release i would have said this is really bad MS decision, but not ninja looting. However since on Frostmoure you get banned for rolling on suboptimal gear, i am not even sure could this be concider ninja looting or not because rules and decisions that admits make are so unclear.

Also i have a problem with "if its upgrade you can roll for it" logic in general. Do you think just because its a upgrade Warrior should roll together with hunters for bows/crossbows for example? Or should Hunters be rolling for Havoc's Call with rogues/enh/DK ?

I can agree for weapons - main source of damage, here it may be divided.

Joining icc 25 with 200ilvl is unrealistic? Well, it is on Warmane, when ppl tend to look for 5,8k gs for icc 10. How strange is having ToC 5nm trinket equipped while 5,2k gs and more? Or just 1 piece of gear with 200ilvl (trinket) when joining Your first or second icc?

I know there are many better options than DBW for example for pala, but DBW still CAN BE upgrade. So needing for it is not aganist the rules, so why shouldnt ppl roll for it?
I know the case I'm trying to show is uncommon, but it can happen. And probably happened a lot in past and I can understand the frustration of these players - they cant need on it just cause someone decided is not as big upgrade for them as its for someone alse.

The point with leader is kinda missed imo, because why should he decide? He is ML and he is obligated to stick to rules. Rules are clear, ninja looting is when You are needing on item thats not useful for You (in simple words), so once again, if it is an upgrade, why this pala cant roll for it?

I would be very careful with giving raid leader power to decide about which items are bigger-upgrade for particular classes, cause it makes a really nice spot for some disturbing. Obviously, spell power back is not for war rogue etc, but when it will come to situation when RL will decide if dropped item will be better for Player A or Player B and will choose who can roll, oh god, so many possibilities for some cheap tricks.

[Skoobydoo]

The point with leader is kinda missed imo, because why should he decide? He is ML and he is obligated to stick to rules. Rules are clear, ninja looting is when You are needing on item thats not useful for You (in simple words), so once again, if it is an upgrade, why this pala cant roll for it?

I would be very careful with giving raid leader power to decide about which items are bigger-upgrade for particular classes, cause it makes a really nice spot for some disturbing. Obviously, spell power back is not for war rogue etc, but when it will come to situation when RL will decide if dropped item will be better for Player A or Player B and will choose who can roll, oh god, so many possibilities for some cheap tricks.

Leader have 100% power over loot distribution, only restriction is if there is something out of the ordinary they have to state if before the raid start. For example before the start of the raid RL can say all loot is reserved for himself and take everything and this will not be concider ninja looting. This is standard plactise on both Warmane and Retail ( back when retail had master looting ).

Joining icc 25 with 200ilvl is unrealistic? Well, it is on Warmane, when ppl tend to look for 5,8k gs for icc 10. How strange is having ToC 5nm trinket equipped while 5,2k gs and more? Or just 1 piece of gear with 200ilvl (trinket) when joining Your first or second icc?

Well first of all we are talking about Warmane specifically, so yes people ask for 5.8gs for 10m and yes it is unrealistic to join as lower gear NEW PLAYER. And also i said unrealistic, not impossible. It is possible to happen, but i have really hard time imagining raid leader inviting 5.2 gs ret paladin with no echievs and on top of that been new players into his 25m ICC.

I can agree for weapons - main source of damage, here it may be divided..

If you agree with that then its all arbitrary and depends of the RL choice.

I know there are many better options than DBW for example for pala, but DBW still CAN BE upgrade. So needing for it is not aganist the rules, so why shouldnt ppl roll for it?
I know the case I'm trying to show is uncommon, but it can happen. And probably happened a lot in past and I can understand the frustration of these players - they cant need on it just cause someone decided is not as big upgrade for them as its for someone alse.

I dont know how else can i communite this to you. It can be UPGRADE and you CAN ROLL for it, but its better to give priority to other classe. Exactly the same apply for Tiny Abomination in a Jar where ret paladins should HAVE PRIORITY. Its just really stupid thing to do and paladin will be ****ing himself over in a long term cus other classes will be getting his BIS trinket.

[Disktrasa]

Also i have a problem with "if its upgrade you can roll for it" logic in general. Do you think just because its a upgrade Warrior should roll together with hunters for bows/crossbows for example? Or should Hunters be rolling for Havoc's Call with rogues/enh/DK ?

To some extent, I've seen a lot of fuss about prio loot, we had a warrior that was with ous for a long time and he lost the crossbow on LoD week after week to new hunters, When a fresh hunter who was carried to bis in just 2-3 weeks got the crossbow before him that's when he snapped, He had played for years on that warrior, loosing this item to hunters over and over again cause they have prio on it, but how far can this actually go before you swap prio?

I would be very careful with giving raid leader power to decide about which items are bigger-upgrade for particular classes, cause it makes a really nice spot for some disturbing. Obviously, spell power back is not for war rogue etc, but when it will come to situation when RL will decide if dropped item will be better for Player A or Player B and will choose who can roll, oh god, so many possibilities for some cheap tricks.

Yeah that's not a good idea, I saw a raid leader who rolled Crit / haste / spell power cloak from Ruby sanctum 25 and Priest who won the roll didn't get it because it wasen't good for him, lead says that DBS cloak is bis (which it's not) cause priests needs spirit, Shaman got it instead.
The priest didn't even know what was bis for him so he didnt argue against it, I made the ninja report myself.

[Skoobydoo]

To some extent, I've seen a lot of fuss about prio loot, we had a warrior that was with ous for a long time and he lost the crossbow on LoD week after week to new hunters, When a fresh hunter who was carried to bis in just 2-3 weeks got the crossbow before him that's when he snapped, He had played for years on that warrior, loosing this item to hunters over and over again cause they have prio on it, but how far can this actually go before you swap prio?

It's a different situation when it come to guild runs and fixed groups, because there is a loyalty factor and it matter how long/serious have 1 person raided with you compare to another. Especially if as you say someone get carried. Non of this apply for pug groups tho, all players are on equal footing there and in general i think Hunters should have priority.

[Fiutolog]

Its not debatable. Pallies get prioritized for rolling on Tiny Abomination in a Jar (which is better) therefor you have no right to claim DBW otherwise

In pugs it isn't prioritized, lost it many times to all kind of melee, talking that its bis for pala didnt help.

[Vilya]

Leader have 100% power over loot distribution, only restriction is if there is something out of the ordinary they have to state if before the raid start. For example before the start of the raid RL can say all loot is reserved for himself and take everything and this will not be concider ninja looting. This is standard plactise on both Warmane and Retail ( back when retail had master looting ).




Well first of all we are talking about Warmane specifically, so yes people ask for 5.8gs for 10m and yes it is unrealistic to join as lower gear NEW PLAYER. And also i said unrealistic, not impossible. It is possible to happen, but i have really hard time imagining raid leader inviting 5.2 gs ret paladin with no echievs and on top of that been new players into his 25m ICC.



If you agree with that then its all arbitrary and depends of the RL choice.



I dont know how else can i communite this to you. It can be UPGRADE and you CAN ROLL for it, but its better to give priority to other classe. Exactly the same apply for Tiny Abomination in a Jar where ret paladins should HAVE PRIORITY. Its just really stupid thing to do and paladin will be ****ing himself over in a long term cus other classes will be getting his BIS trinket.

Mate I see Your posts are based on opinion, experience etc etc, Ok, thats fine. However Im trying to wrap my point around rules.

So if RL didnt set up any rules for reserved/prio items (9/10 cases in pug), equipping this item is upgrade (so its not aganist ninja policy) - it is legal and I can't see any other argument why You shouldnt roll for trinket, just because its not bis for You and bis for someone alse.

Its good to give them priorities and I think personally all guilds should have it, however if its not aganist rules, PUG players should be able to roll for it.

I'm not saying that Im not agreeing with prioritization, I think its good too. But according to rules, there is no single point why palas shouldnt roll for dbw or wars/rogues for tiny abo, as long as its upgrade. So as long as someone is playing according to rules, should we punish him with ban loot of certain items, just bcs "it should be like that"? I'm not sure