That's a clever way to avoid an admission.
Guess who did the same? Then saw the scammer 3 weeks later still doing it. It's one example.
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/28948 - 4 years ago this was logged. It is still regularly reported as a bug. Again, it is ONE example.
I see no point being made here.
Beliefs about what? People? Human nature? Fairness? Life? Bug fixes? Moderation? I'm asking you to stop assuming my stances or opinions and ask, like I have done for you.
I have no power to fix a server's community. I can only bring it to the awareness of others. Upon what you said earlier, I have a guild here, I have friends here, I avoid and ignore toxicity as much as I can. I repeat, sometimes it is TOO EXCESSIVE TO IGNORE.
Will follow your advice and start ignoring you again. Not sure you're capable of mature discussion for longer than two sentences with all of the facetiousness.
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Member
Edited: May 21, 2021
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Forum Veteran
Devs wont fix a bug that over 4 years 25people want fixed? Too excessive ee "toxicity", what do you mean by that, what is "toxicity" in your eyes, maybe you can give concrete example like I gave you?
So what is the essence of your topic? Assumptions to which your words lead is not it. Idk, can you please just tell us the core of it in some 5 words so it's easy to understand. Because I'm confused and I might be too dumb for your advanced ideas and all I see is "things sometimes suck, the end".
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Member
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker?f...5B%5D=&t=Nasam
https://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=421244
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=343440
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd9hBb_wE94
I am going to take time to reflect on what people have said.Edited: May 21, 2021
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Forum Veteran
Time for yet another post it seems.
The last reply I did back in the 1st page of this thread, was not suggesting it's your problem. It's the whole community's problem, and honestly, it's not going away ever. So, what are you going to do? Make threads on forum where only very small minority frequents about toxicity, bugs and staff's participation and how "little" they care? Making a forum thread won't change a thing. I get it, you're trying to bring out issues, but those issues have been brought out many times, too many to count, and hope to get some momentum going in order to fix the issues. Noble cause that falls short each and every time. Not because replies are "negative" or "against you", you're asking too much too quick. Let's not even pretend controlling 23k players' behavior is "easy". Especially when those 23k players are crammed into mainly three servers.
Toxicity and replies
Many of those who've replied to you, have to deal with these threads all the time. They don't have much choice, but to give you the same advise they've given pretty much every other thread that brings out these same issues. Their "grow a thicker skin" isn't same as Garrosh Hellscream telling you "You're weak." Them saying it is supportive, and good advise, which is often seen as a negative reply by the OP's. It's blunt way to say, but honest. You shouldn't allow toxic people to get into your head, as once they've done so, they've won. This is why I keep telling people to ignore and not to be bothered by it. It's not fun to read, but I'm tired of sugarcoating things I have to say all the time. We are not against you. We're talking about the subjects you're bringing out, but we've already discussed about the same things over and over again.
Ninjas and Scams
I wish staff didn't need to deal with the toxicity, harassment, ninja, and scam tickets they get all the time. They only clog the system, and make those with real issues wait and pay for it. Toxicity, harassment, ninja, and scam issues can/should be prevented and or dealt between the players. Since I already talked about toxicity (and let's take harassment to it as well), let's talk about ninjas and scams then.
Ninja will happen, you have to accept it, doesn't mean it's in any way acceptable, or your fault. Players themselves can avoid most ninja issues by using common sense. Best way is to join a guild and only raid with it. When doing PUGS, pray for RNG luck, because there's not much else to do. If you have a gut feeling things will get ninjaed, leave before they pull the 1st boss. Staff can ban ninjas, but that won't protect you from it ever happening.
Scams are frequent, and best way to deal with these is the same, trade with guildies (that you trust), and use common sense. Buying from AH is relatively safe, careful with the prices though. You should avoid trading if you can. Get yourself the professions to craft what you need, so you don't have to worry about losing 8K worth of materials. How a common sense can avoid scams? Not by much to be honest, as you can never know what intentions other players have. Looking for a BS that has specific recipe? There are things that can be faked in-game, but not in http://armory.warmane.com/, check if the player actually has the profession, and the levels for it. Or check in-game for profession related enhancements. High level BS offers Socket Gloves and Socket Bracer, check if the player has those to begin with. Cash On Delivery mail works, but limit is 10K gold, so anything below it can be utilized. Since scams often require trading, take your time to assess the situation, rushing will only cause back fire. Rush makes you forget things, and be less specific about details.
Issues that players can't solve
Since there are a lot of aforementioned issues and tickets, players with issues that can't be dealt by themselves, are forced to wait long time for help. As @angrylol said, there are sometimes issues that requires GM interaction, no way around it. I see these as real issues, and hope they'd get dealt with faster, as players are powerless to change the outcome of these situations.
Bugs
You've said that there are bugs that's been there for years. Yes, there are bugs, especially what comes to non level 80 content. One or two quests being bugged here or there doesn't really matter. One quest being bugged, when there are over 9000! quests, shouldn't matter. That quest you mentioned has no effect on progression, nor does it limit your ability to reach end-game content. Fun fact, that quest is still completable, done it many times. End-game content is Warmane's priority, so quest bugs aren't that high up in Warmane's to-do list. While that kind of bugs don't get fixed, or gets fixed real slow, lvl 80 raid bugs are fixed quick.
Where Are the Staff?
Dealing with tickets and https://www.warmane.com/changelog
I prefer them working on background as they do, rather than blasting forum, twitter, linkedin, facebook, tiktok, skype, IRC or where ever when they fix things, read tickets, or ban naughty players. This is often seeing as "staff not caring". Support Q&A also proves that staff doesn't need to be visibly present here on forums to handle issues. A lot of issues players come across, can be solved/helped by other players. Would you prefer a dedicated staff member copy pasting same answers players can offer, just to show that staff "cares"? And that wouldn't be blatant PR?
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The Detective
From reading the bugtracker and the comments on it, it seems like that quest was fixed 3 years ago and then broke a year ago again. But it got marked as pending a week ago which means a fix might be coming soon. Considering the bug has had 50 peopel upvote it, those same pople make duplicate reports, and maybe 4 forum threads - think it got the amout of priority as it should have consdiering some of the other bug reports on there?
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Forum Veteran
Honestly it would be hilarious to see the staff on tiktok.
Lately I've found the devs to be very responsive. They've been scratching all my itches. Talk about an old itch! https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/102836
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Member
You have given me much to think about. Your defence of the community is admirable and I think not entirely accurate.
Regardless its the most sincere and logical post I've seen so far, even beyond the GM one so thank you. I'll continue working on my social sphere in the game and keep my head down (like I was already doing) instead.Edited: May 21, 2021
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Forum Veteran
I'm not defending the community. Many of the players can be called every kind of name under the sun. The community is.. well, you've seen it yourself, we have all seen it. We've all been a target of some Warmane troll's attention. You can feed the troll, or deny his reaction seeking attempts aka not feeding it. And oh boy, are there trolls everywhere!
I'm a realist, I don't expect this situation to be solved by a snap of fingers and all to be gone the next morning. Since this situation isn't going to be solved that easily, and it will stick around, I'm not gonna stand here and be the victim. I just don't let the trolls (toxic, harassing, ninja, scam players) to put me down. If I get burned a bit, then it happens. There's no need to cry over something so small and insignificant part of your life. I don't dwell on negative experiences, if I did, I probably wouldn't be sitting here writing this message. I'd probably be playing some nice and happy rainbow filled single player game where no bad experience can happen. If you let all the hiccups in life slow you down, how far will you ever get?
So, what could bring change? More rules, or perhaps stricter rules? Warmane introduced raid, and RDF ninja rules, yet it happens all the time. Sure, those players can be reported, and temporarily banned. Is it even a punishment really, many here plays more than one account. IP bans? Won't have an effect. All these are reactionary effects, first the bad thing happens, then comes the consequences. What you should aim for, is to prevent it from ever happening in the first place, how though? Good question.
If you want mature conversation, then start providing some mature content to the table. Your posts have been almost nothing but small jabs at people replying and voicing their own opinions and what not, mostly being opinions you don't like. This is why I tell people not to get bothered by toxic people, you lose your focus.
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Forum Veteran
I'd like to say a few words regarding this post. I fully agree about everything you said (except the part for ninjas and scammers, but I will get to that part later). It's true that we possess the needed tools to deal with the minor obstacles - toxic people can be /ignored (or, in case when the ingame ignore list is full, there are user-made addons that let you blacklist others and hide their messages from your chat window), the bugged quests are few and don't prevent anyone from reaching lvl 80 or even completing the Loremaster achievement. Another user made a good analogy earlier in this thread that we don't call the police in real life whenever someone acts rude to us on the street. I agree that the GMs shouldn't be bothered with minor inconveniences, when they have much more important things to worry about. However, here's where I have to disagree with the things you said about scammers and ninjas. I dare to say, that the playerbase can't regulate itself, when there are 5-6k players just in one faction (assuming that the numbers in the homepage are correct), and a big portion of them don't even speak English.
Ok, let's start from the beginning. Let's imagine how the staff snap their fingers, they remove all rules concerning ninjas and scammers, and they inform us about it in a forum post. VVhat will happen right afterwards? Gradually, more players will forget about the player code of conduct, and knowledge of this will spread rapidly. Some individuals will see this as a green light to screw others for personal profit. Ninjas will roll NEED on everything in dungeons - regardless if for OS, DE, or selling gear for gold - steal valuable profession recipes (during 3.1 and 3.2 on Frostmourne) or hard to obtain gear (RS 25 trinkets). VVill it matter to them what bunch of randoms will say on /global chat? How will people keep track of the misusers? VVill they create a blacklist for the specific realm and post it in the unofficial discord channel or somewhere on the forums? Here are some issues with this idea:
- VVho will able to fill in that blacklist? VVho would be able to have such authority? Obviously, you can't give it to everyone, because trolls exist, and they can frame innocent people. Are certain individuals (e.g. guild leaders from different guilds) going to volunteer to work together on a project so huge and look through the screenshots or videos showing the violators. Like, would they agree to be bothered with something that isn't related to leading raids?
- VVhat happens when the violator changes his name? On Icecrown, you can do that with points (i.e. you don't need to pay real money for that), and currently on Frostmourne you can even switch your Horde character to the Alliance for free.
- VVhat if the violator stole an expensive BoE, like an epic profession recipe (think about Frostmourne), on an alt and sent it to his main, where he would play the role of an angel. That way, that person wouldn't ruin his reputation in the guild he's in, and he would still have a lot of customers.
- VVhat if the ninja (let's imagine that it's a dungeon one) learns his lesson and decides to play fairly again, or they apologise and return the item on the spot. Right now, their account will be suspended, but that saction isn't going to last long, and after it ends, they can continue playing normally. If a blacklist had existed, their names would stay there and quite possibly ruin their reputation later on.
- The latter could be prevented by having something like an expiration date for blacklisted names, but that would open more responsibilities to the people, who are assigned to fill the blacklist.
I don't think that this is feasible. It creates such a huge headache and is a time waster. You could say a blacklist shouldn't be implemented in that case, but seeing that ninjaing items or scamming people would go unpunished, people will be motivated to practise those malevolent activities. To my knowledge, the arise of such cases was the reason why the staff implemented those rules in the first place. It's true that they are still broken by some members of the community (those that don't go to the forums or underestimate the other members of the group), but at least the fear of authorative interference prevents certain violations.Edited: May 22, 2021
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Field Medic Moderator
If Blizzard has been unable to accomplish what you're suggesting, what in the Lord's name makes you think we can?
P.S. For clarity's sake, I'm not a GM.
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Forum Veteran
If all else fails, apply for GM!
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Forum Veteran
Good post.
Ninja rules are good, they do deter people from ninjaing, which is good way to prevent some cases of it.
Ninja RDF is chaos. Sometimes it's miscommunication, uncertainty of rules, and not actually even knowing them. For new players, it's not fun to be banned all of a sudden when you're new to game, and even RPG genre. Especially if it was honest mistake/misunderstanding. Let's be real here, some would talk about it, get the situation corrected, or perhaps even fill the new guy in with rules. Some, however, wouldn't bother with that. Print screen, image upload and off to write ticket. This is why I'm partial what comes to RDF ninja rules, they're good to have, but some situations could/should be handled between the players alone. If the situation can't be handled between the players, then consider making that ticket.
Raid Ninjas. This is whole another story. It's very good that we have rules against that. I believe the punishments are now longer than what they used to be? Certainly feels that the ninja amounts has dropped since this was introduced (rules & new times). It's certainly is more meaningful and required than RDF ninja rules. Raids have longer lockouts, and more competition between rollers, more time consuming and stress inducing content. Worth the hassle and time to make a ticket, and for staff to read and to deal with it. Doesn't always have to be your loot that gets taken for you to make a report. Which many don't do, because "not my problem." Perhaps your successful report just prevented others from being ninjaed.
Scammers. Obviously there are rules against that, sadly that doesn't stop scammers. It prevents small-time chance taking players more than it prevents big time scammers. OK, it stops big timers as well, but only for a moment. Making a new account, leveling and playing it to enable /trade and /global isn't long process nor rocket science.
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Something that's stated in [Realm] Players Code of Conduct [Updated: April 29, 2019]:
Something else that's stated in Reporting Players [Updated: May 22, 2020]:Originally Posted by Palutena
This is why we, forum users that read and reply to these threads, tell people to not expect rules to cover them from the evil bad guys and girls. This is why we tell people to find that small and nice community, also known as a guild, and play with them. Playing with guild friends certainly cuts back a lot of misery you find as a solo, that's dependent on random people for things. Random people who have no friendship with you. They don't care about you, your feelings, or even if you get burned by a scammer, ninja or a toxic player. For them you're just another drop in an ocean. They won't even remember you.Originally Posted by Aldtharios
I'm so close to building a house with these walls of texts..Edited: May 22, 2021
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Forum Veteran
@Ohie
I get where you are coming from, and I also agree that some players would prefer to write tickets and outright report another person instead of filling them in. I agree 100% with you that new players would have a bad taste in their mouths when they start playing on warmane, and they get banned for breaking the rules unintentionally. However, I would argue that even in the worst case scenario (where someone does something wrong, apologises for it, gives the item to the respective winner, but someone leaves that part out of the ticket), such unfair or avoidable cases have to be accepted, in order to enforce a fair game environment in the long term. That’s because we don’t know people’s true intentions when violating the rules - they could honestly be new players, unaware of the player codex, or they could pretend to be such. VVhen writing ban appeals claiming that violators are victims of misunderstandings, some of them might lie that they didn’t know what they did and apologise just so their punishment gets soothed [this might be the case for 1st violations, but, admittedly, those don’t work for continued attempts]. GMs can’t read minds, they can’t see the logs due to some client limitations, and they don’t issue warnings, so inevitably someone would feel that they got punished too harshly. It’s rough being the victim, but if that means enforcing a respectful attitude towards other players in the long run, then we have to accept that such cases are needed for the greater good.For new players, it's not fun to be banned all of a sudden when you're new to game, and even RPG genre. Especially if it was honest mistake/misunderstanding. Let's be real here, some would talk about it, get the situation corrected, or perhaps even fill the new guy in with rules. Some, however, wouldn't bother with that. Print screen, image upload and off to write ticket. This is why I'm partial what comes to RDF ninja rules, they're good to have, but some situations could/should be handled between the players alone. If the situation can't be handled between the players, then consider making that ticket.
You are right, that as players it’s our moral duty to put ourselves in others’ shoes and politely inform/remind them about the rules (instead of sadistically sending tickets and gloating, when the reports prove to be fruitful). Yes, that’s the mature and correct approach for such cases. However, as it was said before, we can’t control others and dictate their behaviour. Like, what can we do to enforce a more friendly and professional attitude among players (when it comes to discussing rules)? Can the warmane staff stimulate it? I don’t want to say no, but I can’t think of a good way to do it. [I’ve played other games before, where players had some sort of ingame reputation, sth like smiley icons, that show others that these people are respectful members of the community. Sth similar can’t be implemented in the client, only in the warmane site, but I doubt that people would check the armoury of others that often.] So, we stick with what we have. VVe have to ask ourselves the following question - what is the lesser evil? Removing rules concerning ninjas and scammers, liberating the staff from solving issues related to these cases and possibly nullifying the risk of punishing misinformed players, or creating chaos in the pug scene and maybe affecting warmane's reputation in comparison to its competitors (dunno whether the last part is true, but I think it's worth pointing out).
[EDIT] Come to think of it, there IS a way to inform new players about the rules. In the game, we get automated green messages, that talk about various different things - joining /global chat to avoiding phising sites. Maybe it would be a wise idea to add another message, which mentions the rules on the forums. Something like:
"Here you can find the player code of conduct:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=65037
Make sure you follow rules stated there, else you risk getting your account suspended."
Regarding:
Yeah, that’s true, but I didn’t disagree with it. GMs can’t prevent bad things from happening, and they don’t compensate the victims. But the reports, which players issue against wrongdoers, create a better environment in the future. So, while having a code of conduct wouldn’t stop players mistreating others, punishing the violators discourages this behaviour and minimises such cases. It’s what I said earlier: “the fear of authorative interference prevents certain violations” from happening. Of course, if someone doesn't want to get ****ed, playing with trustworthy players is the way to go, but I will talk about this on another post.Originally Posted by Palutena
Please bear in mind that best way to avoid ninjas is common sense and raiding with trusted players or guild.
Originally Posted by Aldtharios
GMs should NOT be your shield against scams. Common sense and caution are the best ways to prevent yourself from scams.Edited: May 22, 2021
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Forum Veteran
Here, however, I will specifically address scamming and ninja looting, and say once again why we need some kind of regulations coming from above. Both of these cases share one thing in common - speeding up your own progression or gaining a different type of profit at the cost of another person. Be it snatching a rare item from a group of people, stealing a player’s materials for a certain epic craft, which you would later use to acquire gold and purchase something you need etc. The first case eliminates the need to devote your time to play in a guild and build up dkp/priority for a desired item, and the second case saves you time to farm the said mats. So, doing something mischievous offers you a quick reward, i.e. time is the keyword here.
Now, let’s imagine once again that rules concerning ninja looting and scamming are lifted. If I were a more egoistical person, I would have created a plan to earn people’s trust, and I would’ve stabbed them in the back, when the right time came. As a scammer, I would have probably still used some well-known tricks on an alt (like that TBC red gem, that resembles the BQL choker, or the rabbit foot, which has the same model as VVodin’s Lucky Necklace), however I would have logged in at different hours of the day, and I would have promoted these items locally in different major cities. By doing this, players are less likely to recognise me at a given time. As far as crafting professions go, I would have offered honest services at start, and when some people began to trust me, I would have stolen their precious goods. Depending on how notorious my character became, I would have considered selling him in the trade market for some coins (btw, I have seen this happening before). The topic here isn't that new players will learn their lesson and stop being gullible. Because they won't. As long as we have an influx of new and uninformed individuals in this server, and they reach the endgame, we will always have someone to trick and milk. The topic here is that scamming would be a profitable profession if rules were lifted again.
“That’s why you should trade with people from your guild, that have the profession you need” I hear you saying, but here’s the thing: they might not always have the recipe. This is mostly true for Frostmourne, where new content is released every 3 months or so, and the chance of obtaining the desired crafting recipe is small. It can drop elsewhere, and if that happens, you may not know the person, who possesses it. Then you are on a dilemma - do you trust this person or not? Are you willing to wait, until someone from your guild acquires the pattern? Is it worth to be patient? Do you prefer to buy the item for a ridiculously boosted price on the ah? Admittedly, the answer to those questions should be simple - BE CAUTIOUS! It’s better to wait than to lose expensive materials. Demand that the person creates the item with his own mats, and then you trade your materials + the crafting fee. But, at the start of the new patch, the supply of Runed Orbs/Crusader Orbs/Primordial Saronites is low, so the aforementioned precautionary measurement can’t be applied.
Regarding joining guilds, in order to avoid raid ninjas - yeah, that’s generally the way to go (+ you get to play with other skillful individuals, who know boss tactics and won’t ditch the raid midway through it). If the rules regarding ninja looting were lifted, and players started fearing joining pug raids, then an issue would occur that guilds wouldn’t be able to shelter everyone. This might sound silly to you, but you have to think about it. Not everyone is willing or capable to manage guilds and take on responsibilities outside of doing what they are supposed to in boss fights. I don’t know much about guild management, but I know that expanding it isn’t all that easy. You need dedicated players, who are knowledgeable enough about the different classes, who can multitask and give call-outs during raids, who will take the task of a raid leader/officer conscientiously and lead raids on a regular basis. But what happens when that person has to stay longer at work, or an emergency pops up, that requires his attention. If there’s no replacement, the other 24 participants are left high and dry. That’s the only good thing about pug raids - people aren’t tied to any fixed schedules or other players, and they can play whenever they are available. Same thing goes to rdf groups.
That’s why rules create this convenience for the playerbase. VVe are more likely to trust others, because we know that should they try to pull off anything mischievous, they would be punished for it. In this sense, gaining personal profit at the expense of others will be met with a long time-out, making that acquired progression not worth the hassle. Those were my two cents.
I feel obligated to apologise for making you read through my disseartations. In the past, I was known as vvovvvviki.Edited: May 22, 2021
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Forum Veteran
@Kovachut
Agreed.
I feel like I have to clarify.
By no means have I ever meant lifting rules/restrictions would be good, or desired. If you remove those, Warmane would be a cesspool of brainless maggots eating each other, only to squirm their way to top, only for themselves. I feel like those rules are like threads that are stretched, and holding this server together, but sometimes some filth pours in between the gaps every once in a while.
Joining a guild would be preferable course of action. Your in-game quality of life improves immensely, if it doesn't, find another guild till you find the one for you. Though, not all guilds can provide everything, as you've stated, and it's more accurate on Frostmourne, and on smaller guilds throughout the realms. This means you'll have to get that outside help, whether be it PUG or crafting. Player caution is advised.
My recommendation is to never fully trust anybody in this server. Not even your best friend IRL. If it's big money trade, record it just in case, it's easier to delete it later if it's not needed. Least you can cut one scammer out of others' gold for a time, assuming you make report with enough evidence. Take your time finding somebody who you can trust enough to craft your epics, yeah I know, good luck with that.
I think I've exhausted my wisdom on the topic. Thank you for good reads.
So those all who are reading, don't be Eddard Stark. His blind trust and sense of honor didn't end well for him. I know, spoilers..
Experience and learn, my friends.
