WotLK Lordaeron Frost DK Pre-Raid BiS

[Beanlord]

It's fine if it's procc rate is working, doesnt mean the damage is being calculated correctly is what I mean. To elaborate even further, it could be the 50% or w/e with diseases but is that damage being scaled properly with Armor Penn like it's supposed to? Things like that. I'm not on Deathwing to know for sure, but I do know BCB was quite a bit of dps for Unholy DK's geared with Shadowmourne. Before you state that it's Shadowmourne and it's a 2hander, just know Unholy DK's had the very minimal amount of ARP so scaling and Frost buffs even further benefit it. I don't have haste/arp, but if i pop a 15sec Potion of Speed my % goes from 3% or so to almost 5% of my damage for that 15 seconds. Though this isnt valid testing since 15 seconds of a dps means nothing unfortunatley. I'll just have to wait a while for ICC to be released to really argue this more.

I didn't mean that it's working fine as a whole, just that the proc rate is as it should be and as far as damage goes something does indeed seem off (no AA crits procing BCB, or at least none that I've been able to encounter).

I can't be bothered at all to read this when i realised he linked a 1.60 speed offhand while dual weilding. That alone just makes me think the guy isnt a valid source of information. Idc what kinds of math he's throwing out in that post. Maybe he should have done math on his offhand weapon speed, bc I bet a ilvl 200 slow weapon is more dps than a 213 1.60 speed weapon. Also, there are a ton of posts on how BCB IS valid and some i guess that state it isnt worth the points. Also he's linking Naxx gear and tests, and i've already said that early expac you wont get much from BCB and you should go Subversion.

If you can't bother to read then there is no point in continuing the conversation. His calculations were based on an imaginary number of 0 boss armor with max average numbers for AAs and BCB. I know weapon speed has to deal with BCB dmg before you mention that. The reason why I shared this is because of what you already said yourself in this same post

...but I do know BCB was quite a bit of dps for Unholy DK's geared with Shadowmourne..

Yes, you are quite right here. For unholy and blood BCB is a very good talent, even with/withouth that much arp because of 2handers having superior weapon damage. That's what I wanted you to see, bcb won't be all that good for Dual-wielding compared to 2handing.

[taralej]

I do know BCB was quite a bit of dps for Unholy DK's geared with Shadowmourne. Before you state that it's Shadowmourne and it's a 2hander, just know Unholy DK's had the very minimal amount of ARP so scaling and Frost buffs even further benefit it.

First, a 2H hits a lot harder than DW because BCB only procs from one of the two weapons, and it can also be the OH, and it can also be a Glancing Blow.

Second, Unholy has 3 diseases.

[Doublespoons]

OK, so first off we're talking about FDK pre-raid BiS for Lord's pre-Naxx pre-T7.5. You said it yourself - BCB is wep dmg based, ArPen based and Haste based. You don't have much from any of these at Naxx level. Honestly, Naxx is the tier with the worst possible plate gear available on WotLK. I wouldn't call the 9% crit from Subversion "redundant". Obliterate is an important part of your DPS, is your main RP gen, your FU rune dump, and your Rime proccer.

So in the end, getting back on topic, at pre-raid levels Subversion > BCB. At BiS levels BCB MAY be better, but even then - god, I ****ing hate FDKs without Subversion taking my aggro as tank in case they're not even in Top3 DPS.

Why would you quote and respond to this w/o reading the thread properly? The BCB arguement is about late game and i've stated that Subversion is 100% required if you cant obtain ARP cap. Not to mention in the gearing stages going into raids Threat can become an issue so Subversion is 100% optimal.

[Doublespoons]

Yes, you are quite right here. For unholy and blood BCB is a very good talent, even with/withouth that much arp because of 2handers having superior weapon damage. That's what I wanted you to see, bcb won't be all that good for Dual-wielding compared to 2handing.

First, a 2H hits a lot harder than DW because BCB only procs from one of the two weapons, and it can also be the OH, and it can also be a Glancing Blow.

Second, Unholy has 3 diseases.

Lol... why are you guys trying to elaborate on what i just stated? I'm well aware of damage scaling with a 2hander especially Shadowmourne, and well aware Unholy has 3 diseases. I understand BCB is buffed by Unholy and the damage is better. There was no need to basically agree, but then put more information as if you were teaching me something here. Listen.. the point of what we're currently talking about is BCB> Subversion in ICC gear levels since 9% crit is deminished on the fact that you have about 63% crit on Obliterate in raids by that point. BCB even if it's low is just free damage at that point. BCB hits alot faster and harder with Haste/ARP and you should be about 5-7% total damage dealt. If you aren't generating the numbers then by all means go Subversion since Calculating damage correctly isnt something you should depend on for a Private Realm. It wont be till Lordaeron releases ICC for us here to actually know if it's going to work properly. If you have 60%+Crit on your highest Damaging spell, there's no real reason to raise the crit even higher. The more crit you have the more that number needed goes down when you're above 50% for any class. Unless you get some kind of stat bonus or actual Damage bonus for having more crit it becomes less valuable. Haste at that point is worth more than Crit much less just free damage from BCB. Also, if a guild is requiring you to spec into Subversion for Threat or you're pulling Agro anywhere after Naxx25 Loot, then what your guild really needs are new tanks. That's pathetc, i can understand when everyone is in blues and tanks dont have ATP/Hit/Exp caps for extra threat, but y ou have plenty on gear after Naxx. No Dps should be hindered because of threat.

[Beanlord]

Every dps talent you get will equal "free dps". The more important thing is picking the right "free dps" talents. And in this particular case, regardless of what gear level you have, it will always be Subversion (well I can't really speak for lowbies). Unless somehow you manage to muster an insane amount of attack speed the damage of BCB will always be lower than the damage an extra obliterate crit would generate, nothing will change that. BCB just suffers a lot, esp. in dual wield because of:
1. Extra glancings/hits/crit on OH and in general lower OH damage which can proc it.
2. The fact that you need an unreasonable amount of hit to make the most out of BCB (27%)


Subversion doesn't suffer from that, it does suffer from some "diminishing returns" :
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_strike

Both suffer from unreliability from various procs (you can't sync em). But from the 2 BCB is by far the more random one it will hit and it will hit low.

[Doublespoons]

What i'm saying to simplify this is that if you have 63% crit and BCB is doing lets say 3% of your total damage then BCB is a dps increase. You DON'T need 9% extra crit on Obliterate when it's already insanely high.

[Beanlord]

What i'm saying to simplify this is that if you have 63% crit and BCB is doing lets say 3% of your total damage then BCB is a dps increase. You DON'T need 9% extra crit on Obliterate when it's already insanely high.

And I'm saying that that extra 9% crit will buff your dps more than the dmg from BCB. It won't matter how high your crit is, unless it's >94%.

[Doublespoons]

Well w/e we'll continue this when I can properly test it. We're no where near this point as only a handful of guilds on Lordaeron have even fully completed Naxx25.

[Beanlord]

Well w/e we'll continue this when I can properly test it. We're no where near this point as only a handful of guilds on Lordaeron have even fully completed Naxx25.

Agreed, I look forward to re-testing it on DW when the new core arrives (at w/e point in time that is).

[Doublespoons]

I invite those here in this thread to join Lordaeron and come check out the content as it progresses. Alliance side has little to know knowlegable DK's. I'm unaware of horde, but i'll assume they have an "Okay" amount since the server feels Horde>Alliance. I basically have 0 competition in my role here so far. At this time there are 2 guilds who have Naxx25 on progression i believe. Paradox and BIZZNO. I was told BIZZNO was primarily a core of a retail guild who rolled here during live's downtime. Idk what they have for DK's, but I know Paradox has none and they're activly recruiting for some.

Having more feet in the water to discuss how rotations/stats change as a FDK is nice since 3.3.5 retail no Frost DK's had to min/max or go through with how they should gear since ICC was already opened and more content was available. So far I'm getting alot more dps from Howling Blast than Obliterate in my current gear so things like that change how you open a fight and maintain the rotation. I'm spending more runes/deathrunes on HB than you would otherwise. Frost Strikes are only used on KM procs when HB is down and Frost Striking on downtime between runes instead. I'd use OB/FS alot more if i had some type of ARP though I'm sure.

[Beanlord]

I won't join the lord realm since it's a 1x and I just can't level on those, I don't have the willpower. But if you want an extra opinion from me I'll be happy to help out.

[FrozenPwN]

Just wanted to throw the bomb here - back when I played on a private server which was on 3.3.5 but worked with a gradual raid release (Naxx>Uldu>ToC etc) I was told that Dark Conviction is actually the best off-spec to go for instead of BCB. The reason being that 5% crit and the attack power from Bladed Armor are much better on low gear than whatever Unholy has to offer, considering that Necrosis and BCB only become good with sufficient ArP.

This is what I'm talking about.

This^. Exactly thiss. With the above talent spec as mentioned by Taralej , is capable of dealing holy****onnes of dps.

[PallyMcfly]

dont mean to revive an old thread, but what is the expertise cap here in lord? is it 26 like in retail? been seeing a lot of different numbers while lurking, 22, 24, etc.

[mosat3]

dont mean to revive an old thread, but what is the expertise cap here in lord? is it 26 like in retail? been seeing a lot of different numbers while lurking, 22, 24, etc.

at lower gear i was using exp around 17, what meant like 2 oblit dodges in fight. But you need 22 expertise to not get dodged and 26 to prevent glances

[jendah]

at lower gear i was using exp around 17, what meant like 2 oblit dodges in fight. But you need 22 expertise to not get dodged and 26 to prevent glances

Glancing blows should stay @24% always.