Why RDF Being Disabled on Lordaeron is a GOOD Thing

[linkoynn]

Real reasons why ppl cry for rdf
Lazy
want to spend 2-3h per day max and still get max gear fast
lazy
unappreciative of others
lazy
want to reach end game effortless and then wipefest on raids because unadequate/not caring enough to try harder
lazy
that about sums it up

[Healsonheels]

DISCLAIMER

First let me mention that these here are MY opinions and thoughts about RDF being disabled, you don't have to agree, like or see merit in them. Do I dislike RDF, not necessarily but I do see merit in it not being enabled. At times with 10k players on Lordaeron it's safe to assume RDF being disabled isn't as off-putting as it is being made out to be.

END DISCLAIMER

At one time or another "most" players have utilized the RDF system for whatever reason(s). With the release of the Lordaeron "Hardcore" Realm, a push for community amongst players, to again traverse the lands we have all come to know and an overall quality experience was/is sought.

Without RDF character progression is based "purely" off of the efforts of the players themselves without the crutch of the rewards from using RDF, this goes along with the marketplace being limited/expensive, no transfers to the realm and it being "hardcore", etc. On Lordaeron ("especially") players are putting in effort for their characters and RDF being disabled bolsters this by not providing an "easy street" to gold, XP and or emblems. Weekly raids "will" be even more appealing.

How many times have players queued for RDF only to have the group disbanded because players don't like what dungeon was selected due to things like "it's boring" or "too long" (especially at max level)? How many times have groups had to re-queue because someone didn't click "enter dungeon"? Without RDF players have to form their own groups and manually go to the dungeon(s) of their choosing which means interacting with players instead of being piled together based on the RDF system and not coming across a dungeon they wouldn't want to complete. Without RDF there is no more waiting for the queue to pop and possibly having to re-queue again and again until you get a group that doesn't disband and or all members click "enter dungeon" (though forming groups may still take time but it isn't the same thing).

How many times have players been randomly grouped with someone who has/had malicious intentions (ninja looters, intentional group wipers, etc.)? Without RDF players become more responsible for their actions and conduct which can't easily be circumvented by queuing for RDF since it doesn't take player conduct into consideration when grouping. Groups that are unaware of the nature of such player(s) will be vulnerable to them. Without RDF the population can shun negative players by making others aware of their actions and not grouping with them which would make it harder for them to "sneak" into groups by using RDF. Even if players are known to be negative it will still be a burden for groups to have to replace them if encountered with RDF.

I read it all. I didn't even scroll down to read the first reply. Every word about what you said it's the same as what I think. The disclaimer and the commenting on RDF disabled. I'm a Healer, I hated so much in Deathwing that the RDF queue was 15 minutes long, it popped, Healer Check Tank Check DPS check... Wait, 1 DPS didn't check. Requeue, everyone check. Get into Dungeon, someone says leaves because he doesn't like it or it was those dungeons that no one wants I don't know why and they all leve me alone. This happens for like 5 queues. We finally run a dungeon, wipe 1 time, someone leaves. And all this actions are done without even saying a word. And all the players that I played with I never saw their names again or even tried to remember them, I don't know if this guy was in my last RDF queue.

The last part is really interesting, specially for me. Let's say that I know a Female Human Priest that pressed Need on everything, bugs the dungeon and pressed Disenchant even when she doesn't have Enchanting Profession, before last boss she stops healing and when players ask what's up, she says that she wants the Druid change to Bear Form and /dance and /s I'm Winnie the Pooh. If Druid doesn't do it she leaves. She sometimes asks for (A reasonable low ammount of Gold, so that players always pay it) gold, if the group doesn't want to pay but 1 guy doesn't want the group to disband and he is willing to pay the whole ammount she doesn't accept because she says that the group doesn't care so why would she heal them. So she asks for the 4 players to trade her 5 gold each or 10 gold each or 50 gold each or 100 gold each, depending on the level of players and difficulty of Dungeon.

It has been difficult for her to level up since she doesn't get invited, she is not able to "queue" for "RDF" because the people spamming global and running dungeons has her on Ignore. She discovered that when the Realm was 10K people online it was easy because people didn't know her. She gets invited to the group. 1 guy sees her. He tells group and tells group to put her on Ignore and explains why. This makes 4 people more that will not get played by this *****.

I don't like this system.

It is good that Lordaeron has RDF disabled and I want it to be like that forever.

[Zane2001]

I'll humor you, though.
Our reason for this design choice is because we feel the change Dungeon Finder brought to the game started a cascade. A cascade of events that changed the game from what it once was, to the facebook game "click and get your loot" it has become today in Warlords. It is a HARDCORE realm. That is our reason. Enabling Dungeon Finder so players can sit in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, Dalaran, wherever and queue into easy experience or loot via dungeons they likely have never actually have seen the entrance to is a problem for us. A big one. World of Warcraft's initial design was a world to be explored. The mystery of the unknown brought some sort of excitement. Now there is no unknown. The game is data-mined from the PTR servers Blizzard hosts before it is even launched. You can literally sit and click in the game to get your gear, gold, profession materials, etc.

The game used to be one of community and discovery. Now it is neither. The Dungeon Finder is the very first implementation of "accessibility" features in the game that advocated the "click, join, kill stuff, leave -- no communication at all whatsoever -- who cares if I ninja everything" mentality that is now in the game. The game's community is important to its longevity; more important than any other factor in the game, and the Dungeon Finder only serves to take away from that.

Is whispering someone from global or LFG (actually communicating here!), running to a dungeon and/or accepting a summon from other players in the group too difficult for you? It shouldn't be. It might take a little bit of extra time, but the game should encourage you to go out and do things to get what you want, instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

Or are you concerned about the end-dungeon rewards from heroics? Less Emblems of Frost (note: Dungeon Finder added in patch 3.3, i.e. ICC)? I'm sorry to break it to you, but the community that is used to raiding on Ragnaros & Deathwing in ICC or ToC is already in for a rude awakening in how difficult their emblems will be to get when Normal and Heroic start sharing raid locks like they should.
The realm is labeled as HARDCORE for a reason. It is not meant to be easy. If you can't handle it, I suggest you play on a different realm or server, whichever best suits you.

You should of just stuck with, it's built by design.

Wrath is not WOD

If i wanted to i can stay in SW as a Tank or a healer and just do LFG in global then say to my grp oh i need to unload a few things on the AH repair and then go to the toilet while another two in the group go to the summon stone & i never leave Stormwind

Social aspect of RDF and non RDF has nothing to do with it at all. been plenty of groups in RDF where the group has talked and even added one another as friends & done more dungeon runs and even quests together. & been plenty of non RDF groups where no one talks or vice versa

As for people leaving in the middle of a dungeon.. yep i had that as well plenty of times in non RDF, tanks leave healers dps leave with no warning.

I'll tell you what tho in prime time when there are 10k players online and i have to SPAM Global chat for a group because everyone else is spamming to fight the spam because chat is going so faast & that's the LFG part of Global let alone when people are chatting
That's not the Warcraft i enjoy.

A Group Finder would be better.. all it does is Auto groups you up & you do the rest, you have to get to the dungeon and summon still.

[Feralbeard]

I can play with or without RDF just fine, I dont want to make riot or smth else, I am enjoying everything as it is. It is not that I disagree with this vision, I just want to understand why decision was made to disable RDF.
As Mercy stated - RDF is disable because of 2 reasons: 1) no RDF gives more social communication; 2) WoW/MMORPGs is about exploration, no RDF gives more to explore. These reasons sounds awesome - most people like to talk and explore new things...but it sounds awesome only on paper. In reality this "more social communication" is not working, it has nothing to do with RDF, all you got is spaming global and whispers for invite, thats it. Second is exploration - after going to dungeon once, you will not see anything new there, maybe only new dead bodies next to summon stone.

If those are the main reasons why RDF is disabled, then ofcourse I think there is more to it, because you are smart guys.
The thing I even give my opinion is because I am more like casual-ish who wants to play in hardcore realm and still have a chance to get to the endgame, not wasting years in the process. Its not that I want things instantly, RDF enabled will not give us a enormous head start.
What scares me is not actually your vision for disabled RDF but consequences what will come from Warmane community later.
People will ask insane gear requirements for dungeons later and progression for casual-ish people will be unnecessary slow. Lets be honest, not everyone is capable of making their own parties/raids. With RDF enabled people at least still have a chance to get in dungeon with decent gear.

[Skoobydoo]

This is why a lot of us really really really want a GROUPING tool. No teleports, no bonus xp/loot, no emblems, nothing else apart from forming a group.

In a perfect world, that would happen.
In the real world, you either:
a) Get an addon that simulates RDF (CallToArms)
b) Spam global every 5 seconds, interrupting you from questing/socializing/doing anything else but spamming global. The "socializing" comes down to "inv <role>" or "inv <class>", then "hello, summ pls" or "who go summ" or "no summ? k find other tank *leave*".

It's really annoying having to click up and enter every 5 seconds for sometimes 15-20 minutes (even more for lower level dungeons nowadays). I've really really wished that with Lordaeron I'd do every single dungeon available but it's just so hard to find groups (and I play a tank and my alt is a healer)... People just can't be arsed to go unless summoned, and most of the times I'm the only one going to summon.

i have seen addon called oQueue that do pretty good job for grouping (also show players progression for raids).however not sure is it working for WOTLK expansion.

here is how the addon works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11P4bzR1rdg

[DigitalRaptor]

Real reasons why ppl cry for rdf
Lazy
want to spend 2-3h per day max and still get max gear fast
lazy
unappreciative of others
lazy
want to reach end game effortless and then wipefest on raids because unadequate/not caring enough to try harder
lazy
that about sums it up

Or people have a life and would like to have a tool making lvling easier so they can get to end game and do the stuff that matters quicker

[Skoobydoo]

Or people have a life and would like to have a tool making lvling easier so they can get to end game and do the stuff that matters quicker

there is 2 other high rate realms for people who cant waste time leveling just go there and do endgame stuff that matters :D they will add on them lorderon core soon so no reason to be here if your life is so busy that cant handle slow leveling.

[Obnoxious]

I just want to understand why decision was made to disable RDF.

No, you don't. You have been given reasons, points of view and even a bare "because we want to." But you don't want to understand them, nor are you able to accept them, because you want reasons that would make you disable RDF on your private server, if you had one like Warmane. The main point you're missing is that the Administration doesn't has to convince you about their decision, nor needs you to agree or "understand" it in terms of it being something you would do yourself.

[Jakkre]

The two reason I gave for groups getting disbanded ("it's boring" or "too long") have nothing/little to do with bugs, what it does have to do with are players wanting the easiest dungeons so they can get rewards faster.

It has to do with bugs.
Ppl are abusing the bug that u dont get a dungeon deserter when relogging. Do u think the same amount of rdf grps would disband when everybody gets a dungeon deserter?
Ppl would rather do a long or boring dungeon than waiting 30 mins because of the dungeon deserter.
Most of the problems that occur with RDF on our realms are related to bugs.

Or people have a life and would like to have a tool making lvling easier so they can get to end game and do the stuff that matters quicker

The argument that rdf would make leveling faster is anyway invalid.
Even when rdf is available its still faster to level up by doing just quests.

Its no secret that all the retail players that hit max level with a extremly short playtime were only questing and avoided rdf completely.
Blizzard added a XP bonus reward for completing RDF to balance out the experience gained from questing vs experience gained from dungeons.

So after all with rdf enabled leveling wouldnt be faster on Lordaeron but doing dungeons would be a more viable alternative to questing while questing would be still the fastest way to level up.

[Skoobydoo]

Its no secret that all the players on retail that hit max level with a extremly short playtime were only questing and avoided dungeons completely.
Blizzard added a XP bonus reward for completing RDF to balance out the experience gained from questing vs experience gained from dungeons.

blizzard try to remove leveling as part of the game with every expansion,they add soo many herilooms that is crazy,they shorter exp needed to level more then 3 times.70-71 in WOTLK is 1.5mil exp its 400 on retail now. nowdays theyeven let you buy 90 level char and even give you option to boost to 100.and as we see as good as this sound on paper and as fun as it seem first few week when you play,they have 3 times less subs then WOTLK.

[TriNitY706]

I read it all. I didn't even scroll down to read the first reply. Every word about what you said it's the same as what I think. The disclaimer and the commenting on RDF disabled.

Thanks

If those are the main reasons why RDF is disabled, then ofcourse I think there is more to it, because you are smart guys.
The thing I even give my opinion is because I am more like casual-ish who wants to play in hardcore realm and still have a chance to get to the endgame, not wasting years in the process.

Spoiler: Show

Its not that I want things instantly, RDF enabled will not give us a enormous head start.
What scares me is not actually your vision for disabled RDF but consequences what will come from Warmane community later.
People will ask insane gear requirements for dungeons later and progression for casual-ish people will be unnecessary slow. Lets be honest, not everyone is capable of making their own parties/raids. With RDF enabled people at least still have a chance to get in dungeon with decent gear.

There IS more to it than what you mentioned (communication and exploration):

Our reason for this design choice is because we feel the change Dungeon Finder brought to the game started a cascade. A cascade of events that changed the game from what it once was, to the facebook game "click and get your loot" it has become today in Warlords. It is a HARDCORE realm.

Spoiler: Show

That is our reason. Enabling Dungeon Finder so players can sit in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, Dalaran, wherever and queue into easy experience or loot via dungeons they likely have never actually have seen the entrance to is a problem for us. A big one. World of Warcraft's initial design was a world to be explored. The mystery of the unknown brought some sort of excitement. Now there is no unknown. The game is data-mined from the PTR servers Blizzard hosts before it is even launched. You can literally sit and click in the game to get your gear, gold, profession materials, etc.

The game used to be one of community and discovery. Now it is neither. The Dungeon Finder is the very first implementation of "accessibility" features in the game that advocated the "click, join, kill stuff, leave -- no communication at all whatsoever -- who cares if I ninja everything" mentality that is now in the game. The game's community is important to its longevity; more important than any other factor in the game, and the Dungeon Finder only serves to take away from that.

Is whispering someone from global or LFG (actually communicating here!), running to a dungeon and/or accepting a summon from other players in the group too difficult for you? It shouldn't be. It might take a little bit of extra time, but the game should encourage you to go out and do things to get what you want, instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

Or are you concerned about the end-dungeon rewards from heroics? Less Emblems of Frost (note: Dungeon Finder added in patch 3.3, i.e. ICC)? I'm sorry to break it to you, but the community that is used to raiding on Ragnaros & Deathwing in ICC or ToC is already in for a rude awakening in how difficult their emblems will be to get when Normal and Heroic start sharing raid locks like they should.
The realm is labeled as HARDCORE for a reason. It is not meant to be easy. If you can't handle it, I suggest you play on a different realm or server, whichever best suits you.

As far as casual play goes, casual players still have the same opportunities each time they log in but at the same time while they are off-line there are others players playing and progressing, the game as a whole isn't going to wait for players.

Casual players can band together so that when they reach end-game for example there won't be such a "gap".

It has to do with bugs...

Most of the problems that occur with RDF on our realms are related to bugs.

Most?

Even if deserter debuff worked it won't prevent players from leaving the RDF group for whatever reason(s) (it may deter them but it's not 100% guaranteed). It won't prevent players from ninja-looting (the static RDF loot system doesn't prevent ninja-looting). Mainly it won't prevent players from using it to bypass effort required of a "hardcore" realm which is one of if not the MAIN reason it's disabled from what I have read in staff posts:

Our reason for this design choice is because we feel the change Dungeon Finder brought to the game started a cascade. A cascade of events that changed the game from what it once was, to the facebook game "click and get your loot" it has become today in Warlords. It is a HARDCORE realm.

[Jakkre]

blizzard try to remove leveling as part of the game with every expansion,they add soo many herilooms that is crazy,they shorter exp needed to level more then 3 times.70-71 in WOTLK is 1.5mil exp its 400 on retail now. nowdays theyeven let you buy 90 level char and even give you option to boost to 100.and as we see as good as this sound on paper and as fun as it seem first few week when you play,they have 3 times less subs then WOTLK.

Im not talking about MoP nor WoD.
Im talking about players that leveled up with a short playtime during retail Wotlk. They were doing quests even when RDF was available because questing was still faster.

[Skoobydoo]

Im not talking about MoP nor WoD.
Im talking about players that leveled up with a short playtime during retail Wotlk. They were doing quests even when RDF was available because questing was still faster.

it was never been about balancing dungeons and question.RDF come with 3.3 this was ICC patch dont think that many players start leveling in 3.3 and there is no official statistic did they leveled faster or slower,but next was Cata and in CATA rdf was wayyy faster then questing i can tell you that much.and even since then blizzard start make only casual changes to the game RDF come recruit a friend more and more heirlooms and so on.

[Jakkre]

Most?
Even if deserter debuff worked it won't prevent players from leaving the RDF group for whatever reason(s) (it may deter them but it's not 100% guaranteed).

"Most" doesnt mean 100%.
There is a reason why I said that "most" rdf problems are related to bugs and not "all" problems.
U cant deny that the amount of grps that disband, when its impossible to avoid the deserter, would be significant lower.

It won't prevent players from ninja-looting (the static RDF loot system doesn't prevent ninja-looting).

And the current dungeon system prevents ninja looting?
U can even set the loot to free for all in the current dungeon grps.
RDF would make it at least impossible to change the loot system.

[Jakkre]

it was never been about balancing dungeons and question.RDF come with 3.3 this was ICC patch dont think that many players start leveling in 3.3 and there is no official statistic did they leveled faster or slower,but next was Cata and in CATA rdf was wayyy faster then questing i can tell you that much.and even since then blizzard start make only casual changes to the game RDF come recruit a friend more and more heirlooms and so on.

On the old lordaeron realm i leveled 5 palys as a multiboxer. From level 15-80 I did only rdf dungeons and not a single quest in the open world.
All my chars had complete heirloom gear, each of them had crusader enchant on his weapon and i cleared all dungeons with 1 prot and 4 ret paly.
No random grp can clean dungeons faster than 4 complete heirloom geared ret palys and a tank and still, it took me quite long to level my team up. Previously I leveled a single mage on the old lordaeron realm and it was significant faster to hit 80 by doing quests with this single char.

Following ur logic it would be faster to level up as a 5 man boxer by spamming rdf than as a single char who is questing in the open world. I can only tell u from my experience that the opposite is the case.