"sorry we already hav hpally"

[Gokuzg]

But since the weapon has no icd, it gives 23k mana per fight right now.
Well I have nothing else to say as you just proved that you DO know how the spell should work. :^]

By saying how even with assuming what you said is true, it's not 500 mana for 1 person during a whole fight? You guys have some next level deduction skills. Instead of filming another Sherlock season, they should've made a tv series about you guys, solving some crazy cases of mass murder and Cucumberbatch should just go play Dr Strange or w/e he does now.

And to the new guy - is working on assumption made by szike22 about the icd duration a foreign concept? Anyway I'm anout, because people see what they want to see and don't use logic too much

[szike22]

By saying how even with assuming what you said is true, it's not 500 mana for 1 person during a whole fight?

Here, let me help from your logs how it is 23k mana there:

[AntagonUE]

I guess shamans aint using SP aswell, right?
Mana is better than sp for shamans. RIGHT GUYS?

[Sxcr3219]

*grabs popcorn*.

omg pass some over too :D

[Demmye]

I would like to address several issues brought here:

1. The enchant. I can't claim that I have perfect knowledge of in-game mechanics, so I'm not sure if Spellsurge is working as intended, however since haste paladin to get higher healing output, has to sacrifice some Intellect, mana managment becomes important, so it's rather clear that he will go for something that restores mana instead of 63 SP or 30 Int no matter if at the end of the fight it restores 5k or 20k and I guarantee that not everyone is aware it restores more than it should if what you say is true. However if it's indeed true and Devs confirm that using Spellsurge is considered exploiting due to some bug existing in the code, I guarantee you that those from TFK who have it, will get rid of it.

TFK seems really obsessed with logs, which should be highly respected and logging the encounters is a really good idea. They should be at least looked through and analysed and saying that you simply did not know that something as major as this was exploiting as an absolute lie. It would be the same like GJ saying that they did not know that they should have gone out on the third phase of Ruby Sanctum.

2. Putting aside all the answers author of this topic got - the whole discussion turned into Intellect Paladin vs Haste Paladin. Lay says that Haste is superior in healing output to Intellect Paladins, simply due to the fact that in the same time it will take Int Paladin to cast 5 Holy Lights, Haste will cast 6 HLs, so even if Int heals for 3k-4k more per cast, Haste will still be ahead by a lot, which is vital on fights where tank takes dmg equal to 60% of their hp. Moreover on fights like Halion, where flames are bugged and their spreading is so different from their retail equivalent faster casting is very important. Here is a proof of how flames should work and we all know how they work now:

1. Proof nr 1 (Paragon Kill) they still resemble the X shape even if slightly off
2. Proof nr 2 (TankSpot Guide Kill) their curling is nowhere near as extreme as it is on Warmane

So obviously people will get hit by the flames, once or twice if they are fast enough and that's where the other difference in healing by Haste and Int Paladins shows - you can get them to full hp, before the tick kills them most of the time, while the slower casting paladin will fail in some cases. And I'm not talking about picking them up with Holy Shock and Instant FoL, because that can be on cooldown if you used it on someone already moments ago and the other might not proc or simply 2 heals won't be enough if more people got hit.

Damage like that can simply be predicted if holy paladin is not blind. Haste might be better for the paladins that tend to fail their predictions or just do not think what is gonna happen further at all.

3. The Innervates. While I agree that self-reliance is nice and all, keep in mind that it's a game you play with a group of people, so you all depend on each other and druids have Innervates for a reason. I've seen Intellect Paladins both good and bad call for Innervates during LK fight and even if it wasn't often, they did it, because it's available. Not only that but I've seen tanks drop dead simply, because Intellect Paladin had such slow cast time that LK manged to kill the tank in-between casts. And on the other hand there is Haste Paladin, who while has to manage his mana more efficiently, doesn't have problems with tanks dropping dead and counters the mana issue by asking for Innervate between CD+Plea uses.

On Lich King fight, haste does not matter at all. There will always be one holy light inbetween Lich King hits, Intellect Holy Paladins do not cast their Holy Lights for 3 seconds you know. Also, keep in mind that are other classes, that are actually supposed to have mana problems - just like Restoration Shamans. Also, this is where Intellect Holy Paladins' benefit comes in - your cooldowns are actually cooldowns, not a tool to regenerate mana.

So to conclude:
1. Int Paladin wins in terms of self-reliance.
2. Haste Paladin wins in terms of healing output.

1. Intellect Holy Paladins wins in terms of efficiency.
2 Haste Holy Paladin wins in terms of HPS whoring on aoe fights.

We've had many Intellect Paladins join TFK, however we've been proved time and time again why most of our main holy paladins roll haste. Sure you can counter this, by saying that if Resto Shammy or Rdudu helps Hpala, by healing the tank the problem is solved, but why have a situation when one of your healers needs help in the first place?

Firstly, as an Intellect Holy Paladin, I have never encountered any problems with healing the tanks.
Secondly: "keep in mind that it's a game you play with a group of people, so you all depend on each other".
Also, if your mindset is like that(which is completely fine), why does your guild even use 5 healers for RS25hc kills?

Do not forget that Intellect also provides holy paladins with mana, spell power and crit, while haste gives faster casting speed, which is barely useful to heal efficiently.

[AntagonUE]

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/profile

using it even for elemental shamans, clearly exploiting on purpose.
Got like 40 toons from TFK screenshoted, using spellsurge.
What is excuse now?

[kittenmix]

idunno im a lot more comfortable with a 40k mana pool for intense fights then juss waiting for my time to shine, and why are nerds so hostile ? cant we all juss get along, haste pallies and int pallies ? we're all playing the same 10 year old content can atleast act like we're not smacking eachothers mums around here. but i think to a certain extent this thread kinda helped because ive been healing with other hpallies more often these last couple days. remember guys: class discrimination is not mkay, mkay? thanks.

[AntagonUE]

This thread helped whole realm to see that <TFK> is clearly abusing very big bug, for a long time, on all possible classes, and yet they were the ones which claimed they are the most legit guild on this server.

KARMA

p.s.

all their officers and cores are using it on their paladins and shamans. this is like my biggest dissappointment since i play on this server. Had huge respect,but lost it all right now.

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/profile

Hope admins gonna react asap.

[Demmye]

idunno im a lot more comfortable with a 40k mana pool for intense fights then juss waiting for my time to shine, and why are nerds so hostile ? cant we all juss get along, haste pallies and int pallies ? we're all playing the same 10 year old content can atleast act like we're not smacking eachothers mums around here. but i think to a certain extent this thread kinda helped because ive been healing with other hpallies more often these last couple days. remember guys: class discrimination is not mkay, mkay? thanks.

I have never meant to be hostile by any means, but this thread has opened a very good discussion about holy paladins.

If you would care about my opinion to original point of the thread: 2 holy paladins in one raid are never worth it, with one exception of ruby sanctums. It is true - 2 holy paladins will not ruin the raid, but it can also be healed by 5 holy paladins. It is all about the efficiency of healing and having 2 holy paladins kinda opposes that. I am actually not a fan of having any 2 classes of a healer in one raid to be honest - if a raid needs 5 healers, there are 5 perfectly working specs to heal it.

[AntagonUE]

I have never meant to be hostile by any means, but this thread has opened a very good discussion about holy paladins.

If you would care about my opinion to original point of the thread: 2 holy paladins in one raid are never worth it, with one exception of ruby sanctums. It is true - 2 holy paladins will not ruin the raid, but it can also be healed by 5 holy paladins. It is all about the efficiency of healing and having 2 holy paladins kinda opposes that. I am actually not a fan of having any 2 classes of a healer in one raid to be honest - if a raid needs 5 healers, there are 5 perfectly working specs to heal it.

Or just go 4 heal, and conquer the world.

[Demmye]

Or just go 4 heal, and conquer the world.

Yeah, I was talking about pugs, in which healers might be not experienced enough to perform well. In Wrath of the Lich King, all the content can be easily 4 healed(except for ICC25hc without buff maybe).

[AntagonUE]

By saying how even with assuming what you said is true, it's not 500 mana for 1 person during a whole fight? You guys have some next level deduction skills. Instead of filming another Sherlock season, they should've made a tv series about you guys, solving some crazy cases of mass murder and Cucumberbatch should just go play Dr Strange or w/e he does now.

And to the new guy - is working on assumption made by szike22 about the icd duration a foreign concept? Anyway I'm anout, because people see what they want to see and don't use logic too much

So whats excuse for using it on Resto shamans? Why all your officers and core members using it? Mass exploiting is it?
Damn bro. Why u went silent now?

[Bruu]

I'm a little skeptical if you guys can keep your haste hpalas, remove the enchant from your raid and skill go through ICC smoothly. That said, I don't think the initial poster who brought up the debate and logs knew it was broken. There is no way someone would start arguments like that while being in the wrong and exploiting while providing proof of the exploits.

This is similar to the Fiery blaze enchant issue with rets. I've seen rets in some guilds (you know who you are) who were exploiting this enchant for increased dps. It's fixed now, and afaik no punishments were issued.

[AntagonUE]

I'm a little skeptical if you guys can keep your haste hpalas, remove the enchant from your raid and skill go through ICC smoothly. That said, I don't think the initial poster who brought up the debate and logs knew it was broken. There is no way someone would start arguments like that while being in the wrong and exploiting while providing proof of the exploits.

This is similar to the Fiery blaze enchant issue with rets. I've seen rets in some guilds (you know who you are) who were exploiting this enchant for increased dps. It's fixed now, and afaik no punishments were issued.

They are using it on shamans, on priests, not only on paladins. You still think they didnt know? ELE fking shaman. Resto shaman. 1k mana > 63 sp? Cmon bruh.

[Gnimo]

@AntagonUE

U need to chill a bit bro...