Burning Crusade Warrior DPS Spreadsheet for Arms and Fury

[Kiszh]

I don't buy those numbers, I've done hours of testing and we run 3 Fury Warriors all running maces and the highest I've seen is 61% dualing maces.. For a second there I thought you said your average mace uptime was 73%. BTW 73% Flurry uptime is fairly low for a raid buffed T5 Warrior.

I think the issue here is you taking what was possible and what happened once and equating that as the norm, it's like taking the best RNG and considering that the average, you're going to get wonky results and you can't base your gearing around stars aligning RNG. Just like I can't base the value of Dragonstrike around the 50% uptime I got on main hand one Morogrim kill.

You have to take all data, as much as you can and come to an average based on that, not data skewed by RNG glory runs. Just as you talk about RNG glory runs, Kiszh in this thread whispering me paranoid that Warmane have nerfed the maces because he got such bad uptime during a raid with his 2x Dragonmaw. RNG happens, you gotta iron that out to come to a median.

Actually it was over 3 raids and a ton of heroics where I had sub 40% uptime on dual maces :( Lets be honest being that far below the expected average uptime across that much content is seriously unlucky, and is a huge outlier. Especially considering a big bunch of that content involved cleaving. It went back to normal after I unequipped them and re-equipped them. Long live superstition. though the uptime did correspond to the offhand not proccing.

[Kiszh]

Ohai. I did actually recalc it all. Here's a complete list.

T5
Pendant of the Perilous
T5
Black-Iron Battlecloak (Will cost a small fortune, Vengeance Wrap will be better once we get Epic gems from T6).
T5
Bracers of Eradication
Gloves of the Searing Grip
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
T5
Warboots of Obliteration
Ring of Reciprocity
Band of the Ranger-General
Dragonspine Trophy
Tsunami Talisman
(Solarian's Sapphire)
Dragonstrike (Until proven otherwise (Rod/Talon))
Dragonstrike (Until proven otherwise (Rod/Talon))
Serpent Spine Longbow (Barrel-Blade Longrifle will be better once we get epic gems).

I did reconsider (from our last talk) and will instead go for Exp Gloves + Belt. This will put me at 2.76% Dodge Reduction (3% is cap).



I'm currently using Ring of a Thousand Marks and Shaffar's Band of Brutality. Once I get T5 legs, I will replace Shaffar with the Shapeshifter's Signet. Once I get the Vashj Belt (at this point I'll have the AA Exp Gloves too) I'll be switching back to w/e rings I have (KT + Kazzak Rings pref). Having full T5 BiS (following my list), you'll end up with 9.63% Hit (+1% from Precision using my spec). In other words Warboots of Ob > Utter Darkness, although I'll most likely get Utter Darkness in the meantime.

I see gloves as a viable option. From pure memory though, I seem to recall brigand's comming out ahead of alar gloves aswell. That being said a non 4p setup might be worth thinking about.

Shapeshifter's is in no way worth it.

The boots of utter darkness also are better than the warboots iirc, even after 9% hit.

[Lulleh]

So just to break it down. What you guys are saying is that;

0) Dragonstrike / Dragonstrike (Where raid dmg makes the rage from Rod obsolete)
1) Dragonstrike / Rod of the Sun King
2) Dragonstrike / Talon of Aszhara
3) Dragonstrike / Dragonmaw

Edit1: Brigand's, isn't that a chest? The difference of a non 4set seemed kinda low so I thought might as well go for the 4set, could be wrong though (as to how much a 4set is worth). In t6 the difference between tier items and non tier is a lot bigger though...

The boots have better stats overall, I just figured at 9.63% hit (without talents) that excess hit wouldn't be worth it over the extra AP from the Warboots.

Edit2: Was just thinking about the Rod and T5 4set. What's the ppm of Rod? I figured, maybe it's actually worth not going for 4set and let the Rod make up for the loss of 5 rage per 6 sec (Bloodthirst will cost 5 more rage w/o 4set).

[Kiszh]

Hit is still not a bad stat. The sheet SegaRally linked accounts for hit after 95 rating with 3/3 precision in the value. Though I am actually not sure how he does it. If he just averages the value overall then hit is obviously overvalued after 95 and undervalued before. But since we will likely always hit 95 without a sweat, hit might be somewhat overvalued after 95. I'm sure he can explain much better than I could.

The setup without 4p t5 would look like this (as orc with BS maces + LW and excluding world boss drops):

Destroyer Battle-Helm - 127.77
Pendant of the Perilous - 53.16
Destroyer Shoulderblades - 82.1 (Shoulderpads of the Stranger - 84.88 - 1.12*3 from the expertise not getting rounded up = 81.52)
Vengeance Wrap - 54.13
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest - 116.48
Bracers of Eradication - 66.13
Gauntlets of Martial Perfection - 73.16
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - 97.27
Leggings of Murderous Intent - 106.32
Boots of Utter Darkness - 74.39
Band of the Ranger-General - 62.91
Ring of a Thousand Marks - 53.51
Serpent Spine Longbow - 31.99
Dragonspine Trophy
Tsunami Talisman

Total: 999.32 pawn value (basically str)

In your setup we have (with the same parimeters as before):

Destroyer Battle-Helm - 127.77
Pendant of the Perilous - 53.16
Destroyer Shoulderblades - 82.1
Vengeance Wrap - 54.13
Destroyer Breasplate -114.11
Bracers of Eradication - 66.13
Gloves of the Searing Grip - 72.5 - 11 expertise requires 43.36 expertise you land at 43 with the gloves + belt, 10 requires 39.42 which makes you waste 3.58 expertise, but lets call it 3) = 72.5 - 3.36 = 69.14
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - 97.27
Destroyer Greaves - 105.58
Warboots of Obliteration - 72.52
Band of the Ranger-General - 62.91
Ring of a Thousand Marks - 53.51
Serpent Spine Longbow - 31.99
Dragonspine Trophy
Tsunami Talisman

Total: 990.32 pawn value

Wether the bonus is worth more than 9 strength is quite debatable. You could. however, change the setup a bit.

Destroyer Battle-Helm - 127.77
Pendant of the Perilous - 53.16
Destroyer Shoulderblades - 82.1
Vengeance Wrap - 54.13
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest - 116.48
Bracers of Eradication - 66.13
Destroyer Gauntlets - 71.6
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - 97.27 (has 1 wasted expertise = 96,15)
Destroyer Greaves - 105.58
Boots of Utter Darkness - 74.39
Band of the Ranger-General - 62.91
Ring of a Thousand Marks - 53.51
Serpent Spine Longbow - 31.99
Dragonspine Trophy
Tsunami Talisman

Total: 995.9 pawn value

It's much more plausible that the set bonus is worth 3.42 strength. - that is btw the setup I've made for myself as my t5 bis. Though I understand wanting expertise for more reliable DPS, I still haven't decided 100%

[Lulleh]

hmm, interesting. I personally will go for EXP Gloves and Belt no matter what (assuming my calculations are correct). Although I came to the conclusion that the Belt and Gloves (see the calculators in the picture above) that those would give 2.76% (2.75% after round-down). Is this wrong?

1.25% from being human.
2% from Talents.

3% to go. Feels like I miight have missed something.

Edit: The question would be, how much Pawn is the 4set worth it. I suppose, for every 12 Bloodthirst you'd get 5 more Heroic Strikes.

[Kiszh]

39,423 (40) expertise rating = 10 expertise. 10 expertise is is 2.5% reduction, which is what gloves + belt would give you. You'd need 1 more expertise rating to hit 11 expertise unless my math is off.

[Lulleh]

Hm, the way I did was that I checked the exp from the items (6.34 from Belt, 4.57 from Gloves). Then divided by 3.923.

[SegaRally]

I think there are a few misunderstandings. Indeed haste rating is linear, but I was talking about stacking haste source to increase overall haste value. In this regard I was actually wrong in thinking its exponential when its actually logarithmic (the more uniform the source, the greater the gain is 1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1 > 1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.3 > 1.1*1.4 > 1.5 these values are random but there here to illustrate the the idea since I cant make a graph from my phone).

Second misunderstanding is about how much we value haste, you value it less than I do, and therefore I would like to know why, so if you can explain to me (or better show me the math on how you value haste), that would be awesome.

Ill explain how i value haste once I can type on something more practical than a smartphone (it will take time to type).
Btw, the base chance of a boss to dodge is 5.6%, 6.5% being the wotlk value (https://web.archive.org/web/20150802...tection-guide/ section VII c.)

That guide is out of date, it was later confirmed to be 6.25% or just slightly higher and we've already gone over this, you can check other guides from Elitist Jerks if you like, but no the boss dodge chance is 6.25%.

As for haste rating, I value it just as Landsouls sheet valued it, which is below crit and above hit/agility and scaling positively alongside stats other than additional haste. Haste at lower gear levels doesn't do much more than hit, since until you've reached a point where you're unable to spend all of your rage you're not really benefitting from any additional Heroic Strike dps, the primary effect of Haste at this point is similar to Hit in that it increases how many auto hits you land for generating rage to feed the primary rotation, but it isn't having a significant effect on how many heroic strikes you cast because rage generation does now allow for it.

But it has the negative of reducing flurry uptime where hit does not. As other stats increase (Crit especially) the flurry uptime also increases thus you start pushing towards a crosspoint in the numbers where the negative aspect of Haste tapers off a lot due to more reliable Flurry uptime, and as you add gear further the increase in rage forces the need for more heroic strike and this is when haste starts to gain value, because haste is allowing you to overcome the limitations on rage spending, where hit rating does not.

With all that said, by the end of Sunwell you can expect Haste to be close to Crit in value, Fury Warriors in TBC never get close to the Crit softcap and Crit remains valuable right through so it's likely to never surpass Crit in value unless you have especially high Crit (like for some reason gemming pure crit) whilst also having low Haste... How you're valuing haste I don't know, probably overvaluing it is my guess and I don't understand where that thought process comes from, Haste was never all that special in TBC after the nerf, it requires you to shoot your other stats through the roof for it to be good.

The pawn sheet at T4/T5 gear level has these weights.

STR = 1
AP = 0.4545
Crit = 0.92
Agi = 0.677
Hit = 0.65
Haste = 0.76
Expertise = 1.12


Edit : On hit rating, with the gear sheet it's considered that you will use your brains to get 95 hit rating and the value of hit is purely based on being above the cap, below the cap hit is the most important stat. It's supremely easy to gear for the hit cap anyway, if you choose items based on their above hit cap value you'd end up hit capped regardless.

Lets not forget we're in T4/T5 here, in many scenarios we are still getting quite some benefit from hit, and while it does lose more value as we gear, it still has value. Even so it's the weakest stat above 95 hit and that is reflected here already at T4/5.

[SegaRally]

On the subject of the best weapon setups, honestly take your pick it's going to be close

1. Dragonstrike + Dragonstrike (Human)
2. Dragonstrike + Rod of the Sun King (Human)
3. Dragonstrike + Talon of Azshara (Human)
4. Talon of the Phoenix + Dragonstrike
5. Dragonstrike + Netherbane (Orc)
6. Wicked Edge of the Plains + Wicked Edge of the Plains (Orc)

Any of these setups are extremely good, if you run the numbers on them you're not going to be able to really find any worthwhile differences. In different situations some will come out more than the others, but if you average it out you could take a Warrior running any of these setups with equal skill and any of them could come top on pure merit. Orc/Human racials favour some weapons, but I play a Tauren so those considerations are irrelevant to me.

In retail Tier 5 days I actually ran Talon of the Phoenix + Netherbane and had the Armorsmithing chestpiece, and I kept that weapon setup until Sunwell badge fists and then I ran Talon + offhand badge fist up to Mu'ru in Sunwell, we're at the point now where these weapon setups can effectively last until Sunwell because aside from Warglaives the T6 weapons are really small steps, you need to look to PvP really.

Dragonstrike + S3 weapon is my pre Warglaive goal.

[Selaya]

whats the point of overcapping your offhand expertise as an orc

[Lulleh]

Wow, thanks for all that info. Guess I'll take off the Warboots from the list then. As for Expertise with Belt and Gloves, who is correct (calcs), me or Kiszh? ^^

Also, reason for having Annihilator on Shaman? The double WF (where Warriors only get it on MH). We discussed and figurrd A Warrior or Arms could do it too. But prob shaman better.

Last but not least, can you craft it? Been farming pattern for a good two hours now lol.

[SegaRally]

whats the point of overcapping your offhand expertise as an orc

Who is overcapping their offhand expertise?

Wow, thanks for all that info. Guess I'll take off the Warboots from the list then. As for Expertise with Belt and Gloves, who is correct (calcs), me or Kiszh? ^^

Also, reason for having Annihilator on Shaman? The double WF (where Warriors only get it on MH). We discussed and figurrd A Warrior or Arms could do it too. But prob shaman better.

Last but not least, can you craft it? Been farming pattern for a good two hours now lol.

The idea is that the Shaman is purely there to buff so takes a small hit to his dps to provide more raid dps, and more tank threat. Shamans would only use 2x Windfury with 2x Slow hard hitting weapons, so if you have a fast offhand for whatever reason you really don't want that eating up your Windfury procs (it has a 3s internal cooldown, that is shared between both weapons). So the shaman instead puts Flametongue on the offhand and has a strong main hand with windfury.

Whether it's worthwhile depends on your raid setup, we had quite a physical heavy setup, so it felt worthwhile (I can't say I did the math on that one, 600 arp is approx 200ap for us in a raid at T5 level). Our Shaman was still doing good dps while running Decapitator + Annihilator. If the Shaman is going for pure personal dps he/she would go for 2x Slow weapons with Windfury. For us as Warriors it's more of a hit to our dps because we rely on weapon damage for rage generation. Fury is a spec that you carry to the top with other classes, not one you use to carry others (because it suffers too much from it).

I don't have the pattern personally but our guild does, you can /w Eulogyi about it, we are Horde though. As for Kiszh, you can generally trust what he says, he did some of the testing and other stuff on the pawn sheet even. But I will have a look at what you're discussing and get back to you.

[Lulleh]

That'd be amazing! Thanks. I just got the Pattern now, run #14. \o/ So you're saying your Shaman used it in offhand at all times? My idea now would be to craft two for him, have him start out with 2x Anni, once 3 procs are off he'd swap to normal wpns until x sec before the 45sec debuff falls off.

[SegaRally]

On the subject of expertise, I'm not sure what the confusion is, Kiszh is right that 40 expertise rating is 10 expertise 40/3.9423 = 10.14. Just listing the items individually here.

Belt = 25 Exp = 6.34
Hydross Leather Shoulder = 10 EXP = 2.54
Al'ar Gloves = 18 EXP = 4.57
Shapeshifter Ring = 20 EXP = 5.07

Gloves/Belt/Shoulder = 13.45 = 13
Belt/Shoulder = 8.88 = 8
Shoulder/Gloves = 7.11 = 7
Gloves/Belt = 10.91 = 10
Gloves/Belt/Ring = 15.98 = 15

Expertise as we know always rounds down and there is no decimal contribution from expertise itself. The problem with Shapeshifter ring is that it effectively requires you to say "screw all other stats, just give me expertise", because in terms of item budget it's quite weak, meaning it leans heavily on that expertise rating, but it would require expertise to be astronomically strong for it to overcome weak itemisation overall.

Expertise gains more value later in gearing, dodged attacks do not cost rage, and so long as that rage is still used for an attack you offset some of the dps loss on the next attack (maybe with a HC strike for example). As our gear improves obviously we get to the point where the value of rage drops and on a dodged attack more of the saved rage is simply wasted and the loss of dps is not mitigated, which puts more importance on ensuring our attacks don't get dodged.

So while Expertise is strong for us (our strongest stat along with hit below the softcap), it's not this kinda "sacrifice everything for expertise".. You gotta balance it off, we're comparing small margins with other small margins, that Shapeshifter ring gives 5 expertise but there is an opportunity cost, so to speak, especially when comparing with exceptionally itemised items like KT/Prince/World boss rings.

That'd be amazing! Thanks. I just got the Pattern now, run #14. \o/ So you're saying your Shaman used it in offhand at all times? My idea now would be to craft two for him, have him start out with 2x Anni, once 3 procs are off he'd swap to normal wpns until x sec before the 45sec debuff falls off.

Our Shaman used it in the offhand at all times from what I can tell yeah, but he was also experimenting with other weapons to stack it to 1200. But it's hard for me to really elaborate any more on that since he just decided to stop showing up and quit playing, I can't really ask him exactly how he was doing it or when/if he was weapon swapping. RIP Dragonspine Trophy /cry.

[Lulleh]

Yeah, I currently have the Shaffar and Prince ring. Don't think anyone even have the kazzak one and KT one, yeah... but I agree the Shapeshifter is kinda shyte. Might decide against even using it at all.

As for the expertise, just for the sake of understanding. What's this this?

http://tinyimg.io/i/tsGC3Au.png

I took the value of the items and divided by 3.9423. And I got the results displayed in the calculators.

And yeah, that must suck to loose that Shaman. =/