Humans are not overpowered in pvp

[Gurra99]

Finally you took a turn in the correct direction, no insults and no (personal attacked reactions). I was never butthurt :P and I really think Orc is very good atm, and the same for Humans. I checked your statistics there and only 10 teams from Icecrown appear to be over 2k rating, mostly donors and the highest team from Icecrown is 2.3k which is 300 rating lower than what I was on old arena tournament. Blackrock only has 5 teams over 2k rating with the highest one being 2036 rating. You are honestly not basing these statistics as your argument? Btw, I actually found 1 orc warrior at 1700 rating on the 24th spot of the list, in a team called "Testing", although that has no relevance to our discussion I really do think you need something else to return with. At this point I don't see a reason to continue arguing, I don't care about how many braindamage, chromosomes, mentally challenges jokes you can put out per hour, I basically came here to give my view point on the matter and that being the things I have stated earlier.

There's no statistics backing up this discussion other than the fact that you should play what you prefer according to what your difficulties are, I find RMP and God Comp difficult therefore I think Orc warrior is the best way to tackle that comp. You can go ahead and play Human if you're doing TSG as an example because both the DK and the Warrior can double trink and output a lot of dmg together, but that doesn't mean it will be the best for "All" of the comps you will face. DBW versus Medallion is actually based on the current situation and not the current meta, because everybody so god damn well knows that Alliance is the most populated faction for PvP because most classes benefit from going Human, but that doesn't state that it is the best class all-around.

[DamnOriginal]

Finally you took a turn in the correct direction, no insults and no (personal attacked reactions). I was never butthurt :P and I really think Orc is very good atm, and the same for Humans. I checked your statistics there and only 10 teams from Icecrown appear to be over 2k rating, mostly donors and the highest team from Icecrown is 2.3k which is 300 rating lower than what I was on old arena tournament. Blackrock only has 5 teams over 2k rating with the highest one being 2036 rating. You are honestly not basing these statistics as your argument?

What statistics would I base this on then, dear potato? We're discussing this on the Warmane boards and using Warmane statistics because this discussion is about Warmane and the Warmane statistics reflect best what happens on Warmane. Is this advanced form of stupidity you have terminal or does it occasionally go away and let you actually comprehend such basic things?

I don't care about how many braindamage, chromosomes, mentally challenges jokes you can put out per hour, I basically came here to give my view point on the matter and that being the things I have stated earlier.

Really? Damn, I worked really hard on being as patronizing as possible. I thought you'd like it. I guess you should've thought of this before going in here and calling every sensible person an irrelevant kid while armed with nothing but your sharp wit and disability benefits.

There's no statistics backing up this discussion other than the fact that you should play what you prefer according to what your difficulties are.

I don't think there's anything you can play that will help you with your "difficulties" at this point. Try applying for a special school instead.

[krzyt]

Yeah, and 80 % (95% if we don't count druids and shamans) people in alliance go for human, only because of looks.
We all know Female Dreanei > all, when it comes to looks.

In MoP one trinket gives you like 20 % more damage during burst.
Maybe it evens out on longer fight, but is more about burst than sustained damage.
I sometimes use double trinket as non-human in pvp (some classes can allow that... hehe) I can clearly see the difference in damage.

[zwitter321]

Yeah, and 80 % (95% if we don't count druids and shamans) people in alliance go for human, only because of looks.

Even during vanilla 80% alliance players were humans.

[Jakkre]

Even during vanilla 80% alliance players were humans.

ehmm ... no

[Gurra99]

You shouldn't base your statistics at all if they're not accurate is what I am telling you. Stop being so easily offended if you're the one insulting people, I said you were behaving like a kid in this discussion because all you do is "RANT, RANT, RANT" about your god damn Human racial. I think that the orc racial is the best and you can **** off with that being said, just accept it because your facts are no more unique than the arguments I brought you here in the first place, just let it go, lol. Keep playing your human warrior, I really don't care, but don't tell me what is "the" best, because I think orc is way better against some comps than having more burst dmg. Also one more thing, why do you keep making mental jokes and jokes about special schools? Is it that you have some sort of problem yourself or the fact that you're easy to trigger whenever you're denied? Just stop making posts if you're not gonna have a concrete discussion with people were you don't flame them a bunch, it's not difficult to have a civilized discussion between one and another.

[DamnOriginal]

You shouldn't base your statistics at all if they're not accurate is what I am telling you.

What's not accurate about them? You can see all the teams at their appropriate ratings on each Warmane server. From the top 100 rankings we see that human warriors rank much higher and outnumber orc warriors with a ratio of 21:1 and 35:5 on the 2v2 and 3v3 ladders on Icecrown respectively. The obvious conclusion anyone without some kind of brain damage would draw from this is that the human racials are just overwhelmingly better for warriors and, if we were to include others classes, pretty much everyone else. No matter how much you flail and froth out the mouth about how much better the orc racials are, nobody is going to take you seriously because you have 0 facts to back you up and an entire armory proving the opposite.

Stop being so easily offended if you're the one insulting people, I said you were behaving like a kid in this discussion because all you do is "RANT, RANT, RANT" about your god damn Human racial. I think that the orc racial is the best and you can **** off with that being said, just accept it because your facts are no more unique than the arguments I brought you here in the first place, just let it go, lol. Keep playing your human warrior, I really don't care, but don't tell me what is "the" best, because I think orc is way better against some comps than having more burst dmg.

I'm not the one complaining about the insults, you are. I welcome banter. The only reason I brought up the fact that you called everyone else holding the factual opinion "irrelevant kids" was to highlight your hypocrisy and make fun of you.

Also one more thing, why do you keep making mental jokes and jokes about special schools? Is it that you have some sort of problem yourself or the fact that you're easy to trigger whenever you're denied? Just stop making posts if you're not gonna have a concrete discussion with people were you don't flame them a bunch, it's not difficult to have a civilized discussion between one and another.

I keep demeaning your intelligence because you've shown none so far. Every single post you make is the same take on you being unable to differentiate between personal bias and fact, unable to compare simple numbers, denying reality and just being plain unpleasant to read. Your idea of a concrete discussion is about as convincing as the concrete you were dropped on as a baby.

[Mercy]

I also believe that the player's perception of balance is just as important as the actual balance of the game. If someone thinks something is OP, they will likely react and treat it accordingly, whether the thing being spoken about is actually OP or not. That can skew how we see things with statistical data. As we all know, the players who like to min/max their characters to the absolute most, whenever making a choice that even may result in a 1% difference, they are going to go with the more powerful choice. The top-end and better skilled players tend to do this (most of the time, not all of the time), which can result in the numbers we see on Warmane's ladders right now. That's not to say the Human racial in particular isn't very powerful, because it is. I'm just saying there are more factors in place here than just power of racials.

Take the Legion PvP system and the Legion Human racial as an example. The Human racial only breaks stuns and shares a small CD with the PvP trinket ability. The PvP trinket ability is also provided baseline to all players as a PvP talent. So essentially the Human racial doesn't translate to an increase in raw power even in world PvP where the Legion PvP stat templates are not in place. As a result, many many players who absolutely want a racial advantage in PvP have moved over to Blood Elf characters for the blanket silence on a 2 min CD. Now Blood Elves in Legion are so common in PvP that it is actually quite obnoxious and especially annoying to deal with for Alliance casters in BGs, or everyone as a whole in arenas or rated BGs. In fact, Blood Elves are so numerous to the point that Blizzard has increased Alliance honor gain by 50% in BGs to try and reinforce Alliance participation, and that playing a non-Blood Elf for a class that can be a Blood Elf is considered non-viable or not competitive in the rated aspects of PvP.

[Ricks2]

Take the Legion PvP system and the Legion Human racial as an example. The Human racial only breaks stuns and shares a small CD with the PvP trinket ability.

"Only"

The PvP trinket ability is also provided baseline to all players as a PvP talent. So essentially the Human racial doesn't translate to an increase in raw power even in world PvP where the Legion PvP stat templates are not in place.

Of course it doesnt matter in worldpvp, where stunning is a wasted GCD. But in instanced it's the 2nd best racial in the game, while being the best alliance racial.

As a result, many many players who absolutely want a racial advantage in PvP have moved over to Blood Elf characters for the blanket silence on a 2 min CD.

That's not how you spell orc.

Now Blood Elves in Legion are so common in PvP that it is actually quite obnoxious and especially annoying to deal with for Alliance casters in BGs, or everyone as a whole in arenas or rated BGs.

That's because tauren is a terrible pick for paladin on hordeside, compared to bloodelf, plus DHs (the most played class currently) being restricted to Belf only.

In fact, Blood Elves are so numerous to the point that Blizzard has increased Alliance honor gain by 50% in BGs to try and reinforce Alliance participation

Now you are being biased and make stuff up again. US alliance is terrible in pvp, so everyone who's serious about pvp moves to horde to be able to find partners, if they are serious about pushing ratings. Putting it on Belfs is kinda hilarious, no seriously, it was quite funny.

and that playing a non-Blood Elf for a class that can be a Blood Elf is considered non-viable or not competitive in the rated aspects of PvP.

The fun thing is, if you said Orc then you'd be sooo incredibly close to the truth. Resto shamans are literally half as good as non orcs, warriors are 85% of the time orcs aswell. Hell, if orc wasnt so terribly looking i'd be an orc myself. What kills you in this game in the current meta are combs with stuns to line up thier kills. Be it rmp, walking dead, hero cleave, turbo, destro/spriest, the list goes on. Hard swapping healers is the bread and butter of a ton of combs, especially against shamans and resto druids. The deadliness of stuns is the reason why a lot of people went horde to play orc or play human as alliance.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ga...aderboards/3v3

All those belfs... Like seriously, if you dont like belfs because they annoy you, k that's fair enough. But don't make up fairy tales again, please.

Keep playing your human warrior, I really don't care, but don't tell me what is "the" best, because I think orc is way better against some comps than having more burst dmg.

See, that's exactly on point. For warriors the racial is situational, sometimes you'll prefer humans, sometimes you'll wanna be an orc, it just depends on what you face up against. But for some classes, human is just a massive lose, like a healer having to pick between bauble and solace for example is way bigger then a procc trinket. Everyone is talking about how big it is for dps classes, when in reality it's probably even more important for healers. But yea, for a dps class in arena, it just depends what you match up against to decide what's better.

[taralej]

Woah, Ricks, where did you come from!? :O

@Gurra99 - your opinion is biased and subjective. You're basing your argumentation on one and only one point - that orc racials are good for warrior. Not better than the human racials, just good. And that sometimes, SOMETIMES, the orc racials are better than the human racials.

So how exactly do you expect to win this argument?

[DamnOriginal]

See, that's exactly on point. For warriors the racial is situational, sometimes you'll prefer humans, sometimes you'll wanna be an orc

And sometimes you'll want to understand basic math. There's nothing situational about this choice in Wotlk, we've seen this reflected in the choice of top PvPers back in retail days and we see it even more pronounced today on Warmane with the heavy access to PvE gear. Every top rated warrior when given the choice between 10% stun reduction meta and 3% crit always goes for the crit and that 3% crit damage is nothing compared to the DPS of an extra PvE trinket. You can argue all you want about how much impact you think 10.8% stun reduction makes but it's all meaningless anecdotes at odds with actual facts and opinions of people who are better at this game than you are.

[Mercy]

"Only"

Yes, "Only". It is now a copy of Will of the Forsaken for a different type of CC. Next you'll try and argue that stuns are a bigger problem in PvP than fears and charms.

Of course it doesnt matter in worldpvp, where stunning is a wasted GCD. But in instanced it's the 2nd best racial in the game, while being the best alliance racial.

Maybe if you're a Rogue that can blow someone up with your legendary shoulders in 2 seconds it is a wasted GCD. In instanced, if it is 2nd best, then it is at the very least tied with WotF.
It's also interesting how all that you say in this line has nothing to do with what you quoted. In WotLK, Every Man for Himself opens up a trinket slot which equates directly to the raw power of a character. The racial and the PvP trinket in Legion do not allow you to equip more stats. I thought this was obvious, especially for someone who supposedly plays the content at a mediocre level.

That's not how you spell orc.

I didn't know that Orcs have a blanket silence, or that suddenly stun reduction is more powerful than EMFH!

That's because tauren is a terrible pick for paladin on hordeside, compared to bloodelf, plus DHs (the most played class currently) being restricted to Belf only.

Go ahead and assume I'm talking about Paladins, when I'm not. In fact, Paladins are probably the least represented class that I've seen compared to casters. Not even going to bother speaking to the effect of DHs, since you brought them up, or Monks, Warriors and Rogues.

Now you are being biased and make stuff up again. US alliance is terrible in pvp, so everyone who's serious about pvp moves to horde to be able to find partners, if they are serious about pushing ratings. Putting it on Belfs is kinda hilarious, no seriously, it was quite funny.

You should probably not comment on US matters when it's so obviously clear that you don't play US. Alliance was the dominant faction just in the prior expansion for US.

The fun thing is, if you said Orc then you'd be sooo incredibly close to the truth. Resto shamans are literally half as good as non orcs, warriors are 85% of the time orcs aswell. Hell, if orc wasnt so terribly looking i'd be an orc myself. What kills you in this game in the current meta are combs with stuns to line up thier kills. Be it rmp, walking dead, hero cleave, turbo, destro/spriest, the list goes on. Hard swapping healers is the bread and butter of a ton of combs, especially against shamans and resto druids. The deadliness of stuns is the reason why a lot of people went horde to play orc or play human as alliance.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ga...aderboards/3v3

All those belfs... Like seriously, if you dont like belfs because they annoy you, k that's fair enough. But don't make up fairy tales again, please.

Of course you would instantly run to the 3's ladder to try and prove that you are right when the 3's ladder does not represent PvP content or realms as a whole. Nevermind that there are evidences in the link you just provided, and in the US ladder that prove your statements wholly incorrect.

Even so, all of this ties into the "Perception of Balance" as which is what I was speaking to the effect of, not actual balance. But it seems you didn't pick up on that either.

See, that's exactly on point. For warriors the racial is situational, sometimes you'll prefer humans, sometimes you'll wanna be an orc, it just depends on what you face up against. But for some classes, human is just a massive lose, like a healer having to pick between bauble and solace for example is way bigger then a procc trinket. Everyone is talking about how big it is for dps classes, when in reality it's probably even more important for healers. But yea, for a dps class in arena, it just depends what you match up against to decide what's better.

I'm just going to have to agree with DamnOriginal on this one.

Woah, Ricks, where did you come from!? :O

He has the tendency to get triggered rather easily by things I say related to PvP. Hence his appearance.

[taralej]

He has the tendency to get triggered rather easily by things I say related to PvP. Hence his appearance.

No, I mean that's his first post from April. I thought he was gone on retail.

[Mercy]

I know. He likes to stalk my postings though. If it wasn't me here posting, he wouldn't have commented.

[Skoobydoo]

"Only"

as mercy pointed out its same as WOTF removes 1 type of CC and share 30 sec cd with trinket.
human racial is actually not that strong anymore in legion.Belf racial is really OP for clave comps.

Of course it doesnt matter in worldpvp, where stunning is a wasted GCD. But in instanced it's the 2nd best racial in the game, while being the best alliance racial.

stunning is never wasting of GCD wtf are you even saying.actually belf and orc are both better then human in legion.human is really good only if you are a healer.blizzcon just ended you can go check that almost all teams was horde there.

That's because tauren is a terrible pick for paladin on hordeside, compared to bloodelf, plus DHs (the most played class currently) being restricted to Belf only.

first of all DH is not most played class in Legion in PVP ,but the least played one.most played classes by far are DK and shaman.you can just go check arenamate.you can also check the PVP ladder DH almost dont exist there.
Belf racial is really good for Dk/monk/DH.o tho as monk orc is also really good almost all DKs that play serious PVP are belf.but yes aside of holy paladin the belf racial is not that good for other classes still they are 3rd most played race in PVP after human and orc.

overall in Legion racial are way more situational and way more balanced.it also depends of the comp you play.
on WOTLK on other hand.....thats whole another story because human trinket is not restricted of removing only stuns and you can use PVE trinkets in PVP.in Legion the trinket you are using dont even matter its all about the ILV number you have.