Being more concise could help.
- You want more potions added to Blackrock. Tracking, camouflage, invisibility to name a few.
- In your opinion FAP costs now too much (you suggested to drop it to 2500), and as balancing factor, increase other potion costs.
- You have buddies that runs 100 alchemy character bot(s) that can then stock guild bank full of FAP's, sell excess gold for coins and eventually sell their accounts forward. - That's a lot of TOS breaking to prove a point. Rather extreme case, no? Far from average Icecrown user.
- People buying few 264 BoE's are stronger than 245-251 ilvl fully gemmed, enchanted PvP gear (given for 0 effort).
I don't see why any Blackrock player shouldn't be placed only on higher bracket(s). Not unless there's some way for Blackrock players to get lower ilvl sets, but isn't Blackrock's goal endgame (tournament) PvP, why would endgame PvP wanters want to go against low ilvl/beginner/weaker players. Maybe it's easier to go against people who are gearing, when you're already geared yourself (yet again, for 0 effort)?
PvP'ers have certainly developed extreme case of reliance on a singular potion.
Cat out of the bag. Maybe, just maybe, it would be in server's best interest to see if FAP should be gone?
-
The Lightbringer
-
Member
Well I would but, being (or at least trying to be) concise got me misunderstood and dismissed. While a more lengthy yet broad step by step reasoning got me "cool story bro"-ed and dismissed. Granted, I'm not the best communicator though. I'll sure try to do better next time around (after I reply to each of your points).
I have no interest in having those potions added to blackrock, I was merely using a few examples to show that blackrock isn't the utopia Obnoxious was painting. It seemed to be a strong cornerstone of his argument. Given that I play both realms, I'm deeply familiar with the advantages and shortcomings of both.
Yes, if we took at the overall balance it would be much better course of action. Even FAPs/LAPs at 2500 and other potions at 1000 would be a better action if price changes are the only balancing act we are allowed to do. Personally, I can just play around everyone having all these pots to their disposal, but battlegrounds is a team based mode. (Reasons in the wall of text for anyone wondering)
Yes I do, I wish warmane would do something about it. But it seems like a logical consequence of allowing people to sell gold for coins. People will find loopholes even if they have to break the ToS or not. I like mentioning exploits on the forums just like I did earlier, in the hope something gets done.
It is far from the average Icecrown player, but I was again trying to give a counter argument for one of his cornerstones, showing that it isn't all hard work and above board server mechanics. If you prefer a normal equivalent of the blackrock potion chugger: any dk, warrior and healer in a pvp guild or any pve hunter in a pvp guild who abuses LAPs as their trinket to equip DBW. (I'm guilty of that last one too btw)
I'm literally saying the opposite, they are put in the bracket due to their 1-2 264 item(s), but can't compete with an overall 245-251 optimized character and thus complain as you see in the course of this post. The overall mechanics of having dynamic brackets will not do the balancing much favor either way. For example if fresh blackrock players are now furious (232) then dynamic brackets might put 264 ilvl item users in the high bracket due to lack of players with their gear profile. (this is an assumption I have no knowledge of the actual code behind the matchmaking.)
Same here, I'm not making that case at all, I have played starter geared blackrock characters into BiS people if you know how to play you can play/itemize around it as best as you can. I'm just assuming it's a beginner issue (player tries a new class -> is forced to try it out vs BiS Shadowmourne Ret) which got fixed by dynamic brackets and complaining (I assume).
I genuinely want nothing more, if for some reason the coding is too hard you can always enforce arena rules but that would disable a lot more than free action potions (rocket boots, etc.)
I'd make that changelog my wallpaper.Edited: August 30, 2024
-
Member
Can you please stop this pointless debate and rather make constructive suggestions about how to improve PvP.
Thank you.
-
Field Medic Moderator
Man I wish I knew how he does it so I could make changes too.
-
Member
I'm not a fan of answering with equal ignorance or sarcasm, but do I really need to explain deduction? I didn't mean it in the direct sense. I meant in the sense that someone complained, he listened, he forwarded it, it got fixed, and reported further on it. That's why I added the "Seems" in the sentence, since he aided in the process (he did something very helpful I might add, kudos, guess I was wrong all along he listened, reasoned and acted).
Mate I gave several suggestions the fap thing was just one note that got blown out, but I'm allowed to clarify things when people take it out of context or give shaky logic as a retort. Do you think I want to endlessly bicker about it myself? I just want it to be clear, and hopefully have something rectified that will cause issues for the people who don't even know the forum exists in the first place. I genuinely planned on dropping my suggestions and not visiting the forums again for another year. But since you asked nicely I'll go, because you are 100% rightEdited: August 31, 2024
-
Field Medic Moderator
He's not the only one that does that. We all try to keep the devs up to date on good, relevant, community feedback.
I'm not sure what the purpose of pointing it out is, though. It seemed like you were trying to make a jab at him. For what purpose? How does that help you?
-
Forum Veteran
To his credit (and im sure he will back me up on this), I generally think very little of Obnoxious. In this thread I actually think he has taken the community seriously, listened to issues and engaged in good faith discussion on what could make PVP get really active again. You on the other hand have not, instead jumping in to be sarcastic and then making a surprised pikachu face when you get called out on simply not taking the communitys complaints seriously (which is fine by the way, if you dont care then just tell us, but please then also dont do the surprised pikachu face when other people tell you they care or are surprised when you dont seem to care.)
Nobody is victimized in this thread, nobody is getting jabbed. It seems like Snoosnoo and Obnoxious were at some points getting down to what is reasonable prices for FAPs on Blackrock and I for one think that conversation is worth having. I supported (explicitly) raising prices and now we see if they need balance. To Snoosnoos credit, I think they might need balancing if we want to keep them a little more obtainable on Blackrock. As opposition to Snoosnoo I actually also don't know if the system needs to be fair, something I've stated before. Blackrock for instance has Graccus, so in my opinion they could even be without FAPs and everything would be fine.
To me the core of this issue is how we move from here: These fixes were appreciated and thanks to Obnoxious people in the PVP community finally feel a little heard after years of issues that have slowly thinned out the pool of PVP players. BGs are more fun now for certain classes because FAPs are more scarce, so what do we do about IOC, AV and the abundance of players going ally which offsets both teams in BGs (favoring alliance Icecrown players heavily) and killing WPVP?
Is there an interest in looking over forced merc mode for all realms for instance?
-
Member
I think the biggest problem is still in the bg brackets and overall the gearing process for alts what makes the PvP experience bad. With Blackrock starter rele the game will be always awfull for gearing alts which discourage me to level and gear up more chars. I dont think forced merc mode is a good idea on Lorda and Icecrown.
We should find something else. Nerfing Human racial making it "custom" is still a better choice as for me. Make it removing only stuns, sharing 30 sec or 1min cd with freedom trink. Problem is the faction inbalance would be still huge and it would need time to balance the win rates between factions. Just because nerfing human racial doesnt mean ppl would go horde instantly. So you can question that easily if this would be the solution. I'm still on it its not a bad idea.
Giving tokens for Bg wins, Arena points for example for exclusive rewards could be also a good idea. Make it really really expensive, so if someone has it thats a prestige thing. I dont think it would solve the IOC and AV thing but thats still a player created problem. Protected GY-s are still a good idea.
Ty to the staff being opened for changes this time and actually listening.
-
Forum Veteran
I think that second option of having racials be open to any race might be an option, but unfortunately it only solves half the issue. Back when merc mode didn't exist there were more people on alliance than horde playing PVP, but not by alot and the really noticeable differences were in arena, not in battlegrounds. Horde had guilds just as big and just as competitive (in terms of battlegrounds) as ally had, beacuse the ques were literally non existant.
Your solution (while i like it and do agree with it) does not fix the fact that a dedicated group of farmers can lock down entire battlegrounds for hours every day for years just by going to a specific faction and opting out of merc mode. The people who this should really bother are the Blackrock players, as this puts them in a system where they are always going to roll the dice and most probably come out disadvantaged in a random BG, whereas on realms where you can pick your own faction you can just pick the dominant faction.
Again, I do like your idea though.
-
Member
One change to consider would be to remove the shared cooldown between Will of the Forsaken and PvP trinket.
That should make the factions more balanced in PvP.
-
Member
Greetings.
I SUGGEST it! (for those who do not like to read a lot - the main thing at once, for others - the detailed answer below).
If the whole problem is with the balance in FAPS, remove it completely from the seller, but in return, give Blackrock players the opportunity to craft it in the open world (collecting flowers and catching fish).
Let Blackrock players pay for FAPS with playing time on an equal basis with players of other realms.
I want to add a few words to this discussion. To begin with, I will describe who I am, and why I actually want to speak out.
I have been playing on this server for several years, starting from 2019-2020. the group moved from another server, where there were fewer players and pvp died.
In WOW, I am only interested in pvp and bg, since the general experience of the game for more than 15 years on 3.3.5 - I already wore the best clothes on x1 all the classes that I just wanted.
At the moment, I have been continuously playing BG every day for 4+ years in the BG BIS grid from Blackrock.
I also have a character on IceCrown, but why don't I play it? because I just don't have time to go to the dungeons and knock out the stuff that I once mined, it's not interesting, and it spends too much time - it takes 3 + hours to close all the dungeons + there is no guarantee of getting the right equipment.
but at the same time, I tried to get dressed and get pumped on Icecrown.
The pumping itself from scratch, without donating, took a week. Pumping profs took one day according to guides (I received money from mining profs, sold copper at auction)
I didn't notice anything complicated about it.
They did not switch to Icecrown only for the reason that it would take another 1-2 years or a donation to dress a new Persian in BIS, which is too much for a working and family person. In addition, English is not a native language, which limits the number of guilds where you can join.
As for the new balance relative to the BIS grid:
it often looks like this. The primates of the Alliance with Icecrown without the mercenary mode against the players from the fan, who completed the horde
https://imgur.com/a/bcnk5yK
And
https://imgur.com/a/AOA7if5
https://imgur.com/a/VpQE5ep
As you can see, the vast majority of Blackrock is playing for the Horde.
Regarding the overpricing of FRAPS - are you sure that this is the problem?
The players from the fan at the best time are 1500.80% of whom are playing the Arena, and 15% are collecting starting gear to go to the arena at 264.
How many guilds can you name with Blackrock that unite in Primed for BG? 1-2?
And on Icecrown? without hesitation, I can name 2 guilds that put 10 people on WCG, and 15 on other BG, killing completely the random element. (wranglers / Revenance / unmersufull).
Now try to assemble a band on Blackrock. In the best cases, these are groups of 2-3 players. We know what we are talking about, we tried to assemble a stable five players throughout the year.
in addition, Blackrock is limited in other possibilities. We have no chance to get accessories from Alterac Valley so that we can move to the base and defend it, there are NO NPS in the open world to whom to hand over the quest... and the totem for the shaman healer has already been added after my bug report, SM - only donate.
by the frequency of using FAPS in the BIS grid. Primed players use it in the same way according to CD. one familiar warrior allows himself to drink FAPS for every attack in SP, which has a 20% slowdown at best. The entire guild works on Primed tanks.
thus, there is now an imbalance in the BIS grid towards Primed with Icecrown, because Blackrock players need to WIN 2 BG or lose 5 to use one FAPS (and our dear administration not only raised the price of FAPS and removed all stocks from the players, but also removed all the accumulated honor in the emblems!).
Problems and complaints mainly come from the players of 251 ilvl, that they cannot play on BG and compete with the FAN players.
But after all, they have the same wonderful opportunity - to create a character on Black rock, the dear Administrator himself said - it's a matter of pressing two buttons, you don't even have to wait in line when you re-enter the world, you just create an analog of your character (appearance, class, race) with 251 starting gear and enjoy it, it's like a bracket for 79 or 19 levels, do you also need to equalize everyone under the same level of equipment?
A player with icecrown can easily skip the 251 grid, because as soon as he gets 277-284 equipment, he will be transferred to the BISS grid. at the same time, enjoying playing on a character created on a fan. (you can dress up in pvp without BG - it was proved by me personally, playing Icecrown for the horde)
Thank you for your attention
-
Field Medic Moderator
Me surprised? Calling me out? I couldn't care less if someone called me out, though they'd need something to call out first. Yeah, sarcasm, because I was being silly about something I thought was silly. If you, they, or whoever else wants to take it personal, that's not really a me problem.
Furthermore, I don't see where I've expressed, in any way, that I don't care about the topic. The only expression of care, or the lack thereof, in my prior posts was on very specific points.
Perhaps you don't perceive it that way, but the whole point of those prior posts was to point something out and curb any potential follow-up of it.
As for whether I appear to care, not that anyone needs to be informed of anything that is said internally, but I do participate in those internal staff conversations where we are discussing this specific topic and the state of BG pvp in general. Would you prefer to keep going on this, or perhaps detour away from the jabs, which you most certainly have just made towards me, and bother with the things you suggest actually matter?
Nevermind the conversations I have with people elsewhere, in various other channels.
I never suggested the conversation wasn't.
--
I do think it's something that needs monitoring for a while, and you can expect that we will. The topic of "fairness" is a point worth consideration to some degree, but keep in mind that the realm is intended to attract pvp as an ideal environment for those who want to pvp exclusively. Denying them specific tools altogether would not be something I'd consider ideal. Though my perspective on the pvp environment, and my opinions on various things, do tend to be the dissenting opinion internally.
I think at this point it's probably best to make one or two changes at a time, rather than sweeping changes, and observe the effects. Faction balance in and of itself is a fickle problem to approach, as it can sway heavily in one direction or the other with even the most minor of adjustments. WPvP, unfortunately, is not something I think can be addressed across the realms universally. It could potentially see iteration on Blackrock specifically, but generally speaking across standardized realms, WPvP is usually not where people go for PvP. When they do, and they aren't being gankers/griefers, it tends to be the limited activity of countering griefers. Competition over the world pvp objectives doesn't hardly exist, Hellfire Peninsula aside due to quest rewards, and hasn't since around 2007-2008.
-
Field Medic Moderator
I don't think forcing Mercenary Mode is the ideal solution, either. Especially given that there are some players who don't want to be playing as another race, and their chosen aesthetic matters a great deal to them. I also don't think making changes to Every Man for Himself is ideal, either. There's a couple reasons for this. It impacts PvE and the faction balance we have on the other realms is very much affected by it. Sure, we could make it PvP instances only, but the choice of faction for the player is still affected, as it is most commonly specifically chosen to do PvP with. The biggest issue with faction imbalance in BGs is Icecrown. The issue therein is that people on the realm have the tendency to choose Horde for PvE more often, whilst making the same choice for Alliance for PvP. If we address PvP specifically on the issue and disregard the PvE impact it could have, the realm could shift totally towards the Horde. At which point, the problem would be similar, but swing in the direction of Horde instead. Faction balance is a delicate issue and we have to make changes that affect it with great care and consideration beforehand.
-
Banned
I never played bg but arena is dead, people wintrading in solo q for get title since 5 years, also since they change the system for avoid trioq'ers solo q is completely dead, r1 sq is 2.6 since classic started when it was 3.2 in the past. People there are griefing wintrading and no one ban them. 3V3 only wintrader aswell and 2V2 start to dying aswell. Staff member do nothing for promote arena as most of players are pve dragon they literaly dont need to do effort for make arena better. People asked for new title and rewards in 2s, new transmog for 3k 2s players, new tabards but they dont care at all. Also 99% of warpal player are scripting with dll hack, pqr, patch, lua unlocker and warmane still didnt fix that, so all thoses thing make people slowly quiting pvp
-
Member
What about making racials independent of the race so the player can freely choose the racial for his character?
Then the race choice would be just an aesthetic choice and players who are min maxing would be able to play their preferred faction and race while still keeping the best racial.
Having raceless racials should also even out the faction imbalance.
