WotLK State of PvP

[Brutone]

That wasn't their initial meaning, you're the one twisting their purpose.
They gave Factions their identity with their racial powers and looks.

Right now players lose their identity even more when they appear on the battlefield with a different race and on the opposite faction.
With independent racials mercenary mode could be suspended.

All the racials have a lore explanation for why the race has it. Good luck reasoning that a Dwarf with "Da Voodoo Shuffle" isn't stealing from Trolls' identity as a race.

The lore argument doesn't count to me since we already have mercenary mode with undeads poping EMFH, etc.
Also ppl who are into lore would have the option to choose the original racial of their race.

[Obnoxious]

Right now players lose their identity even more when they appear on the battlefield with a different race and on the opposite faction.
With independent racials mercenary mode could be suspended.

The lore argument doesn't count to me since we already have mercenary mode with undeads poping EMFH, etc.
Also ppl who are into lore would have the option to choose the original racial of their race.

If someone seriously feels their "identity" is lost for being on a different Faction for the length of a Battleground match - and a Battleground match that somehow is repeated forever without there ever being a winner that affects the rest of the world, something that already would break the immersion of anyone who seriously puts weight in their RP anyway - there are much deeper issues to be dealt with there, and they aren't on the server.

The lore not counting for you doesn't really matter. In the end of the day I'm just countering your point, I have no need to convince you.

[klzlk]

I don't have those numbers directly, no, but, unless something changed recently by a lot, I'd believe those Alliance in Mercenary mode are mostly Blackrock players that have it enforced as turned on, not so much Lordaeron and Icecrown ones using it intentionally.

Not sure what to tell you about you experiencing it as balanced. What you're saying and what all the players complaining about the balance say don't match.

What I like in Warmane and what keeps me here after about 14 years or so since I made my first character is whenever I feel like playing some WoW I can jump in to the game after months and months of hiatus many many times and the game stays the same. I login and do a BG and its like I never left. I play like a month on and off and again I put it a side for a period of time. Every time I do that I see small changes in the winning ratio, sometimes I win more sometimes less but in general I always see (100%) the big alliance guilds using merc mode and the same hardcore players (that are here each time I come back..) again with merc on.
I can only attest to my personal experience and you know [a lot] better than me that people will always complain, no matter what you do, thats why I think the ratio numbers can tell the actual picture best.

If however there is indeed a problem, I think that solutions like
A. NOT forcing even Blackrock players to merc mode which will cause longer queue times only for alliance players without merc mode
B. Changing the Default option to be merc mode on and you need to specifically turn it off if you don't like it

are better solution than forcing everyone in merc mode.

If someone seriously feels their "identity" is lost for being on a different Faction for the length of a Battleground match - and a Battleground match that somehow is repeated forever without there ever being a winner that affects the rest of the world, something that already would break the immersion of anyone who seriously puts weight in their RP anyway - there are much deeper issues to be dealt with that, and they aren't on the server.

Its not just that. When I play a healer in a BG and heal people, and the very same people next bg will focus me try to kill me (and like Warmane players can be, sometimes loot/emote/whisper as well, and again I healed those people 15 minutes ago and will need to heal them again in 15 minutes) thats totally ruining my experience from the game.

[Brutone]

If someone seriously feels their "identity" is lost for being on a different Faction for the length of a Battleground match - and a Battleground match that somehow is repeated forever without there ever being a winner that affects the rest of the world, something that already would break the immersion of anyone who seriously puts weight in their RP anyway - there are much deeper issues to be dealt with there, and they aren't on the server.

The lore not counting for you doesn't really matter. In the end of the day I'm just countering your point, I have no need to convince you.

I think having a different character model and fighting on the enemy faction is way more of a identity loss than beeing able to pop EMFH as a orc.

[Bainehoof]

Free action potions should be removed.

[insanechaoz]

You failed to say why should the progression of PvP gearing be slashed like that in our PvP servers that aren't Blackrock (we don't have any PvE server, so I'm assuming that's what you mean). That sounds akin to doubling or tripling the drop rates of "best-in-slot" stuff so people doing PvE get to the end of the gearing process faster, that's sounds like an absurd notion.

I don't know the impact changing that trinket would have on damage reduction due to Resilience or PvP in general, so no opinion on that.

Not all races/classes/specialization combinations are meant to be PvP viable. There is no reason to mess with effects of fall damage, how pets work and that sort of thing to make this or that specialization do better in PvP, it's perfectly fine that some are good and some are trash. The game was never balanced around individuals, but groups complementing each other.

The problem with gearing PvP on the regular servers is that you ARE linked against mostly teams that start in relentless. Nobody wants PvP geared players in raids so it doesn't affect PvE at all. Relentless weapons aren't even on the vendors so we inherently cannot even obtain the same gear sets Blackrock players can get, and there's no benefit to keeping relentless weapons off the vendors because they're still objectively bad for PvE. You can buy a battered hilt for 1-2 days of gold farming and have a better weapon. I'm stuck in MMR hell on my warlock and paladin alts with furious weapons and can only get them to 1700, making wrathful weapons inaccessible and I don't do any PvE on those alts so I'm stuck with a 239 weapon vs all players with 264-284. Relentless ones would be a nice stepping stone.

The arena ladder isn't the same as it was in 2010. 1500 rating is near equivalent to 2k rating on retail and it's not remotely feasible for new players or undergeared players to gear wrathful without first obtaining PvE BiS and relentless. I got 2100 on my rogue here in 2015-2016 at 5.6k gs but that's simply not possible without cheating or being literally flawless as a player now. I've geared every class to at least wrathful chest and it's absurd how bad the gear disparity often feels even on my 6k characters once I hit 1600-1700mmr because I'm lacking the resil I need to survive long enough to even get the chance to play. Icecrown and Lordaeron players shouldn't just be free cannon fodder to Blackrock players because it takes us three weeks to farm a piece they start with, and those points are also used on wrathful and are thus wasted with relentless purchases to begin with, disincentivizing purchasing them at the current costs vs point gain.

Relentless being more accessible hurts nothing of note, takes way too long to get at base 250 arena per week, and is just stepping stone gear that feels like a waste of points to buy. If you want lower brackets to feel better, you need to incentivize players who aren't 10+ years experience to play even if they lose a lot, and that would be helped with the aforementioned idea of a weekly quest that gives some bonus AP and honor and helps to smooth out the early brackets and make it a more level playing field. It's never going to be perfect as an MMO, but there are numerous small steps that can be made that don't really impact other gameplay at all and would bring a lot more benefit than drawback.

As for the pet thing, I thought about it and rescind the idea to add a pet talent point because it would affect pet damage output. Buffing the HP scaling however affects nothing in PvE at all and I once again raise the question of if the hunter pets HP is literally bugged it's so drastically different to warlock and DK pets. Even as BM the pets have laughably low hp and survival even with every talent point spent on survival talents. "Not all races/classes/specialization combinations are meant to be PvP viable" is a scary opinion because all classes absolutely were meant to be viable. Maybe a spec won't be, but to suggest an entire class should be unviable is a really dangerous stance to have in a game with competitive number based matchmaking. A bad move set in a talent tree is one thing, one classes pet having 20k hp in full BiS and optimal talents and dying to 2 dots or every single bladestorm through mend pet and losing key abilities for the rest of the match isn't.

[Obnoxious]

Maybe someone in the Staff who cares about PvP will read something different, I'm just seeing "PvP is too competitive, make it easier for me to get gear without competition."

"Not all races/classes/specialization combinations are meant to be PvP viable" is a scary opinion because all classes absolutely were meant to be viable. Maybe a spec won't be, but to suggest an entire class should be unviable is a really dangerous stance to have in a game with competitive number based matchmaking.

Sorry if truth hurts. World of Warcraft isn't a PvP game, it's a PvE with PvP one. It was never balanced for PvP, much less on an individual class base. Certain classes are direct counters for others and some classes have no chance against others if skill and gear are on equal footing. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

[putridbrain]

Faction-balance is crucial for a PvP server, but it's desirable for PvEers as well, as the Alliance would appreciate more active PvE-community.
Separating races from racials is the only way to balanced factions & eradication of "A for PvP H for PvE".
If we're not crazy:
OFC, racials should stay sticky to class (for example druids can only pick NEs or taurens racials)
OFC, actives&passives should be binded like they originally are
OFC, changing the racial should be a donate option like changing race or faction

Yes, it'll affect PvE-balance SLIGHTLY, making raiding easier with every possible best racials.
Imo, racials in PvE are not that crucial (otherwise forsaken wouldn't be allowed in raids & I doubt Alliance only consists of PvPers). Besides, raidboss-dummies running out of HPs like 30sec earlier won't notably change the overall experience PvEers seek, while faction-disbalance vastly corrupts PvP experience. Also it's controversial if PvE is skill-dependent, so it's not about how hard the mob is anyway, or Lordaeron would be clogged.
For those who really care THAT much and will resent this innovation, I think you can leave the racials be on Lordaeron, keeping it good old immersive blizzlike x1 realm with strong mobs, because people who want strong mobs are probably already playing there.
Also remember balanced factions are desirable for PvEers too, if they care about picking a race that they actually like.

Now a quick dive into a nerfing/removing EMFH suggestion that some made.
Depriving Alliance of EMFH won't eradicate faction-disbalance, instead it'll be shifted to Horde's side, bc Alliance won't gain PvEers during PvPers decline. So it's not an option in comparison to racials detachment, because it will harm Alliance PvEers AND PvPers, while not resolving faction-disbalance.
Also imo deleting/recreating an ability is even more of a custom change, and we want to keep things blizzlike if possible.

I also agree that Lore&RP side of this solution must as well be taken into account. We don't want dwarves that know voodoo.
Remember how you dealt with transmogrification, making up new items, calling them "Scroll of Illusion" and they are somehow immersive. Just rename the damn racials, change the icons, and call it something like "Birth Signs" (Like Sign of Night, of War, of Wolf, of Cat etc I know you can come up with some cool fantasy names). Not a big deal at all.

I want to add that mercenary mode obviously makes faction-disbalance worse in long-term. It only solves BG queues short-term issue, but in return even more PvPers will roll Alliance because long queue doesn't exist. As a consequence we'll have even less Horde PvP-guilds, even deader WPvP-scene and Orgrimmar will forever lie under godforsaken siege.
Also many people will agree that merc is far worse solution even RPwise than racials detachment wouId be. For me seeing the model I didn't pick, that belongs to faction I didn't pick, kills the immersion far more than would having one gameplay-conventional ability my race didn't originally have. That is renamed and restyled and called "Birth Sign" and whatever. Okay, one dwarf has a Birth Sign that "reduces the duration of all movement impairing effects by 15%", and? You really think it's that much of a "not WoW anymore"? It's not orc paladin or gnome druid (forgive me), but it solves so much. Merc, in other hand, solves nothing but kills the immersion far worse by forcing people to associate with enemy faction and see the model that they didn't pick nor like, making their transmog look different to what they've put effort to.

The only remaining issue I see is not being able to predict what ability your opponent in PvP could pop, but it could just be listed in character info when you point your cursor on them, like "Human Warrior, Sign of Rat". So not a big deal too.

[Brutone]

@putridbrain
I couldn't have said it any better.
Separating races from racials is one of those changes that the community would happily adopt.

[putridbrain]

OFC, actives&passives should be binded like they originally are

I imagined different races doing the Cannibalize and changed my mind about all racials being binded like in original game, maybe a better option would be leaving the insignificant ones like this & underwater breathing, profession/weapon bonuses and other minor passive&active abilities to their races (for example Cannibalize, humans Diplomacy, NEs Wisp Spirit, maybe gnomes intellect, trolls beasts damage etc). Then it'd be even easier to rename&restyle assumed "Birth Signs" so they could fit in Lore, and races would still have unique abilities that don't ruin everything.
It's important to try to predict how people'll minmax combining racials when deciding which should stay with races, to prevent people from choosing one faction over another (bc of minmax) again. Though I hope with EMFH & other prime abilities being accessible to anyone, the minmax won't be huge enough to affect factions.

I understand, though, that such change isn't likely to happen bc it's maybe too custom for this server. I personally distrust almost any custom changes (especially bc adding one creates tendency to add another, and I don't want Shreks and Jinxes running around). But I genuinely don't see any other ways to balance factions. Maybe this game just sucks after all and orcs were intended by Blizzard to be raped by mighty humans Idk.
I'd be glad to hear other people's opinions.

[karliq]

Ah, yes, forcing stuff. What could go wrong with forcing stuff?

[Brutone]

I imagined different races doing the Cannibalize and changed my mind about all racials being binded like in original game, maybe a better option would be leaving the insignificant ones like this & underwater breathing, profession/weapon bonuses and other minor passive&active abilities to their races (for example Cannibalize, humans Diplomacy, NEs Wisp Spirit, maybe gnomes intellect, trolls beasts damage etc). Then it'd be even easier to rename&restyle assumed "Birth Signs" so they could fit in Lore, and races would still have unique abilities that don't ruin everything.
It's important to try to predict how people'll minmax combining racials when deciding which should stay with races, to prevent people from choosing one faction over another (bc of minmax) again. Though I hope with EMFH & other prime abilities being accessible to anyone, the minmax won't be huge enough to affect factions.

There are 3 races which are considered best: Human with EMFH for PvP, Troll with berserking and Orc active + passive for PvE.
It would be enough to make only the racials of human, troll and orc available to other races. Ppl who are min maxing won't pick the other racials anyway. Then we won't see gnomes using Cannibalize, Tauren using shadow meld or other bogus.
I guess a Orc using "every orc for himself" or a gnome popping "gnomish nimbleness" for 20% haste would be a lore friendly change.

When players do a racial switch it should definitely change the actives and passives as well.
Otherwise everybody would choose the race with the best passives and combine it with the best active racials.

[HeBecTyJlKa]

It's obvious nobody from the Warmane team can balance it - I think it's time they forced Mercenary mode on everyone and add a monthly coin payment to disable it... Same for premade BGs too, at least make some money out of PvP being this bad! /s

It's even worse for newcomers, by the way, I just started a month ago, got a couple of Furious items and was still wearing some dungeon gear when I started facing full Wrathful and premades, so yeah, PvP is just FUBAR :)

[Ethernasppke]

Forced merc mode is the worst idea ever.

- Just rethink racials.

- Delete gs brackets.

- Give us rated bg system, with the option to play as a 5 man premade vs 5 man premade on wsgs. for example.

- Rethink Blackrock starter relentless or give 2x more AP at Icecrown too and make relentless weapons obtainable. (Not only via trade shop.) - Make it "cheap", because others can get it free at Blackrock.

- Give no titles for 2s, only for 3s and people should get more AP from 3s to encourage lower lever gear people to find others and cap AP that way.

- You should limit shm, because this meta is an abominated meta. Having even the pets shm aint feel wotlk experience. Like remove the proc from it only in arenas or smthin. - > I'm prepared to get flamed : D.

[magicgenja888]

As mentioned before in this topic forget about PvP as fresh 80 or new player as the low ilvl bracket is filled with twinks with ICC25 weapons.
Every game looks like this:
https://i.ibb.co/9YG97Cb/pvplol.png

In some games there are even few of those guys as it is a full guild doing this in low ilvl bracket just to pray on fresh and new players with 3k gearscore.
I also have seen questions in BG channel from new players - Is this guy hacking?
And its understandable that you can think that way when you meet a player with ICC25 weapons going 40 kills with million damage. No surprise that a new player thinks - okay this guy has 5x kills 0 deaths and 5x damage as everyone else well I guess private servers pvp is full of hackers..
Dont understand how Warmane think this is okay. When you see amount of HKs those guys have it tells it has been going on for very long time. The only thing that I can think of why those people are not moved to Blackrock bracket is that they are donors and will stop donating if they will have to play on equal terms without the possibility to 1shot new players. How would you otherwise create a bracket when people with ICC25 weapons are matched vs blue geared players?

It was a nice initiative to create a BG for newly 80 players but the implementation is terrible full of loopholes and exploits.

The best PvP Warmane ever created was Frostmourne + Blackrock season when everyone had equal gear and bgs were awesome but for some reason it got ditched..