1. The Absolute State of PvP [it aint good]

    Let me pre-face, this isn't me being salty. The casual PVP on warmane is broken beyond belief.

    I recently came back to Warmane after a few years of inactivity. I saw that frostmourne was the most recent seasonal realm and was still in progress with RS so decided to make a new char, try out horde (all my icecrown chars are ally). Everything has been smooth sailing up until getting to lv80 and starting my pvp off-spec. Boy was I not prepared.

    Let's start off with my first few battlegrounds. Went into them expecting the usual push and tug but was absolutely rolled. Weird, must be just because my low-rank pvp gear is trash. Did another. Rolled. And another. Rolle. And another. Again and again, we got rolled. I couldn't understand what was going on, every other WotLK server had the occasional roll, not every single match. So I stopped doing battlegrounds, head over to wintergrasp and started to farm some honor doing the quests and running the battle every time it was on. Got some pieces of gear that are better than the craftable pvp gear and a few of the off pieces of relentless. Tried again, rolled. By this point, I was just starting to assume alliance players were focusing pvp, that is until I saw someone talking about blackrock players. So I go check out blackrock (which up until this point I just assumed was instant-80 with no PVE content where you just had vendors to buy pvp gear from).

    What the f***. Instant lv80 + full relentless gear instantly for free, any class you make. This includes ilvl 260 trinkets, weapons, jewelry etc. Not only that, you also have enchants, gems etc pre-applied. Now I can understand this for a pvp server, what I can't understand is making that server cross-playable with servers that are on x7 or even x1 rates. That has to be the worst decision I've ever seen on any private server. It's effectively killed casual PvP on all servers outside of blackrock. The grind to get full relentless is hard enough, let alone trying to do it against a full team wearing optimal armour and weapons.

    WHY IS THIS A THING?!

    It gets worse because blackrock is, according to the website stats, 64% alliance players. Now I usually play alliance but seeing it from the horde side, this is just insanity. We talked about it while being rolled by a full blackrock alterac valley. Some of our team had 3k gearscore. Everyone agreed that it's an issue, even someone who told people to stop crying made the point "It sucks and it's ruined pvp but warmane allow multiboxers so don't expect them to care".

    The solution is to just disable cross-realm battlegrounds, make pvp gear cheaper on the other realms so people have a fighting chance or tone down the gear people on blackrock start with.

    The other issue is multiboxers. Yes, it's well known they underhand money to the server and I've been told the owner multiboxes too but there's one ally player called "Iruinpvp" who literally wipes out the entire raid at the start of each wintergrasp battle. Can this be at least classed as gameplay sabotage? Can we maybe get a cap on how many characters can be multiboxed at once? When people multibox with the sole purpose of ruining pvp or trying to sabotage wintergrasp so that their faction gets it, even blizzard would have taken action.

    Now I'm sure some people who can't understand the context of this will come along and say "lol just play blackrock if you want to pvp". That's not the point. Warmane is supposed to be an authentic wotlk server. Not every battleground had people with full relentless or BiS gear, especially when queueing as a fresh 80. There's supposed to be some tier system but even that is absolute jank because I've seen people as low as 1.7k gs getting ravaged by 5.6k players. It's completely ruined the pvp aspect and I'm honestly debating whether to offspec a tank instead because as it stands, it's just unplayably bad.

    Can we please implement something to balance this.

  2. Interesting write-up. Also don't forget how multiboxing has ruined world pvp and city raids.

  3. agree 100% i play bgs all the time i just love them my favorite part of the game frostmorne was so good until we got cross-realm i ben in bgs with 6.5k gs icecrown players with shadowmourne yes thats right while i was 5k gs it hapeend while in Call to Arms: Arathi Basin and i got screenshots to prove it and many times i join bg lattley i get icecrown and blackrock players where i am the only one from frostmourne how is it fair when they all get gear so easy like above said 260 trinkets and gear i think removing blackrock would be best thing for warmane in my opinion
    Edited: February 21, 2021

  4. agree 100% i play bgs all the time i just love them my favorite part of the game frostmorne was so good until we got cross-realm i ben in bgs with 6.5k gs icecrown players with shadowmourne yes thats right while i was 5k gs and i got screenshots to prove it and many times i join bg lattley i get icecrown and black rock players where i am the only one from frostmourne how is it fair when they all get gear so easy like above said 260 trinkets and gear i think removing blackrock would be best thing for warmane in my opinion
    I'm all for blackrock existing, let people who want purely pvp do their thing. I just don't want them to have the ability to be able to queue with other realms who are likely still farming honour for their pvp gear when they have instant gear that's BiS outside of Arenas.

  5. I'm all for blackrock existing, let people who want purely pvp do their thing. I just don't want them to have the ability to be able to queue with other realms who are likely still farming honour for their pvp gear when they have instant gear that's BiS outside of Arenas.
    well when i said remove i did mean from other realms let it be it own server every bg i join there is afk blackrock players like in 1 av there was 10 players afk all from blackrock win trade on top of gear advantage i honestly miss old molten days without all this i have icecrown toon with full gear i can play i think i will go back to play it cuz frostmorne is not worth it anymore
    Edited: February 21, 2021

  6. There is not much you can do when you are 3k GS in quest greens and blues going against 5.5k to 5.8k GS Blackrock players. Ideally, the dynamic gear bracket system should not be placing you in a match against Blackrock players. My experience is the middle gear bracket, where most people are around 5k to 5.8k GS, typically offers the most balanced battleground experience. I don't know what caused the system to bump you to the middle bracket, perhaps it was during off peak hours, maybe you queued with someone who is ineligible for the lower bracket, or maybe it was caused by a high level item that you possess (this gets people bumped to the top bracket, so maybe it also bumps people from lower to middle bracket)? Knowing the frequency and the cause would be very helpful. My 3k GS alts seem to reliability queue into the lower brackets while the 4k GS alts occasionally get bumped to the middle bracket. Perhaps what you are experiencing is the exception not the norm?

  7. I have an idea.. How about do 2 Battlegrounds.

    Battleground 1 : Cross-realm between ICC/BR
    Battleground 2 : Cross-realm between Lordareon/Frostmourne

    I think it solves 50% of the issue ?

  8. I have an idea.. How about do 2 Battlegrounds.

    Battleground 1 : Cross-realm between ICC/BR
    Battleground 2 : Cross-realm between Lordareon/Frostmourne

    I think it solves 50% of the issue ?
    That might work, if they also move lowbies from Icecrown to the second Battlegroup (Lordaeron + Frostmourne). However, we still need to account for gear availability on Frostmourne when pairing them with the fully progressed Lordaeron. There seems to be quite a few moving pieces, and according to the Developer's Log, they have already taken a lot of things into consideration. I am guessing at this point it is still better for them to tweak the existing system rather than to replace it with something else.

  9. That might work, if they also move lowbies from Icecrown to the second Battlegroup (Lordaeron + Frostmourne). However, we still need to account for gear availability on Frostmourne when pairing them with the fully progressed Lordaeron. There seems to be quite a few moving pieces, and according to the Developer's Log, they have already taken a lot of things into consideration. I am guessing at this point it is still better for them to tweak the existing system rather than to replace it with something else.
    I think a handful of people being fully geared in a bg isn't that bad, it's only really when you're against a team of them.

  10. I have an idea.. How about do 2 Battlegrounds.

    Battleground 1 : Cross-realm between ICC/BR
    Battleground 2 : Cross-realm between Lordareon/Frostmourne

    I think it solves 50% of the issue ?
    That bad idea.
    Mainly because frostmourne is progressive realm and after if characters merge into icecrown lordaeron ll be a dead pvp realm again.
    Do u know how retail balance bgs?When u enter a bg u get an avarage itemlevel and stats.I think that possible on wotlk realms too.Maybe too much work and many donors wont like that but still :D Or make crossrealm bg queue and realm bg queue options so ppls can choose... I dont care about 80s pvps because crossrealm is good for lower lvl brackets there isnt problem lvlers and twinks can play more bgs because more ppls joining from 3-4 realms.If u dont like 80 bgs with their current conditions make a 79 twink where items dosnt matter like as lvl 80!
    Edited: February 21, 2021

  11. I think a handful of people being fully geared in a bg isn't that bad, it's only really when you're against a team of them.
    I do not understand why this is happening to you. As a low GS player, you shouldn't be facing them at all, neither a handful nor a full team. The only time I reliably queue into the top gear bracket is when I play my 6.2k GS main or a 5.8k GS alt with an 284 ilvl weapon. A good portion of the battlegrounds on my 5.5k GS alts end up being in the middle gear bracket, where players are mostly in the 4.8k to 5.8k GS range. What you are describing sounds improbable, and if is true, is definitely a bug, provided that you (a) do not possess any high level endgame gear, (b) have not been queueing with people who do, and (c) are not playing exclusively during off peak hours.

    Do u know how retail balance bgs?When u enter a bg u get an avarage itemlevel and stats.
    Many quit playing retail because of this change. It is incredibly boring and prevents people from customizing their stats and come up with different builds and playstyles.
    Edited: February 21, 2021

  12. I do not understand why this is happening to you. As a low GS player, you shouldn't be facing them at all, neither a handful nor a full team. The only time I reliably queue into the top gear bracket is when I play my 6.2k GS main or a 5.8k GS alt with an 284 ilvl weapon. A good portion of the battlegrounds on my 5.5k GS alts end up being in the middle gear bracket, where players are mostly in the 4.8k to 5.8k GS range. What you are describing sounds improbable, and if is true, is definitely a bug, provided that you (a) do not possess any high level endgame gear, (b) have not been queueing with people who do, and (c) are not playing exclusively during off peak hours.


    Many quit playing retail because of this change. It is incredibly boring and prevents people from customizing their stats and come up with different builds and playstyles.
    I played today during peak hours. My gearscore is a little over 5k and is mixed between pvp off pieces and pve pieces. That shouldn't matter - I don't have the pvp gear to compete with anyone in full relentless. Also we were being queued with 3.5k GS players at peak times while the enemy team were nearly all fully geared blackrock players.

  13. I played today during peak hours. My gearscore is a little over 5k and is mixed between pvp off pieces and pve pieces. That shouldn't matter - I don't have the pvp gear to compete with anyone in full relentless. Also we were being queued with 3.5k GS players at peak times while the enemy team were nearly all fully geared blackrock players.
    The PVP vs PVE gear part is tricky. Some builds are viable with little to no resilience while others are not. If you play a spec that requires resilience, then you are mostly SOL until you get the gear. As for the 3.5k GS in your group, there could be reasons for him to be bumped up or it could simply be a bug. If it is not a frequent occurrence, I would not put too much thoughts into it.

  14. The PVP vs PVE gear part is tricky. Some builds are viable with little to no resilience while others are not. If you play a spec that requires resilience, then you are mostly SOL until you get the gear. As for the 3.5k GS in your group, there could be reasons for him to be bumped up or it could simply be a bug. If it is not a frequent occurrence, I would not put too much thoughts into it.
    Okay so since you're trying to pass this off as a bug/uncommon occurence, I've just hopped in a random bg. It's not even 1am GMT, frostmourne has 4k players, icecrown has 9k players, blackrock has 1.1k players so it's hardly off-peak.

    I spent some time while not in combat trying to get screenshots of players gearscore. Ironically enough, we for once had some really good players and actually won the bg (although a few of them were asking why they were horde at the start).

    https://i.imgur.com/tHSkd6w.png

    As you can see, there's everything from 2.5k to 5.8k gs running around the bg. Bear in mind, a lot of the people are also using pve gear because unlike blackrock, you have win like 15-20 battlegrounds for each piece of furious gear. That's wins, you're looking at double assuming a 50/50 winrate (lol nowhere close). So 40+ BG PER PIECE of *FURIOUS* gear which is 20 ilvl lower than the relentless granted instantly upon character creation on blackrock. If you want relentless gear, you need to farm arenas. I've not done arena on warmane yet but from looking at calculators, you need to win 10 matches at 1600 rating to get 1 piece of relentless gear each week.

    Blackrock has no place among other realms, it's unfair, it completely ruins casual pvp (and probably arenas too) and destroys any sense of progression from spending time to get pvp gear.

  15. Okay so since you're trying to pass this off as a bug/uncommon occurence, I've just hopped in a random bg. It's not even 1am GMT, frostmourne has 4k players, icecrown has 9k players, blackrock has 1.1k players so it's hardly off-peak.

    I spent some time while not in combat trying to get screenshots of players gearscore. Ironically enough, we for once had some really good players and actually won the bg (although a few of them were asking why they were horde at the start).

    https://i.imgur.com/tHSkd6w.png

    As you can see, there's everything from 2.5k to 5.8k gs running around the bg. Bear in mind, a lot of the people are also using pve gear because unlike blackrock, you have win like 15-20 battlegrounds for each piece of furious gear. That's wins, you're looking at double assuming a 50/50 winrate (lol nowhere close). So 40+ BG PER PIECE of *FURIOUS* gear which is 20 ilvl lower than the relentless granted instantly upon character creation on blackrock. If you want relentless gear, you need to farm arenas. I've not done arena on warmane yet but from looking at calculators, you need to win 10 matches at 1600 rating to get 1 piece of relentless gear each week.

    Blackrock has no place among other realms, it's unfair, it completely ruins casual pvp (and probably arenas too) and destroys any sense of progression from spending time to get pvp gear.
    AV is a poor example because of the sheer number of players required for it to start. Not that it is a good thing, but bots, AFKs, and premades (only in the top gear bracket) present more of a problem in terms of balanced gameplay in AV. If you farm arena and lose 10 matches per week, you will get a Relentless main piece nearly every other week as long as you are also getting your daily Random Battleground wins. If getting low GS players in your game is mostly limited to large battlegrounds like AV and IoC, then I don't think this presents much of an issue, since what typically determines winning or losing (in the absence of premades) is whether or not the players are willing to play the objectives.

    Right now you are experiencing the toughest part of the grind because you barely have enough gear to get placed into the middle bracket. Maybe Warmane can improve the situation by lowering Blackrock's starter gear set to Furious, and also widen each of the brackets and create a larger overlap between neighboring brackets. The system should also randomize the team roster regardless of faction so that there is a fair chance for the teams to be roughly equal in terms of gear and skill. By widening each bracket, a gear gap will be present so most players will be able to feel a gear advantage after each upgrade and have some sense of progression. If someone happens to be at the bottom of the gear level range in a match, the overlapping of brackets will ensure this individual has a chance of getting into a lower bracket match and enjoy out-gearing most of the players there.

    I don't know how feasible this is in terms of implementation. I am just throwing this out there. At any rate, thanks for uploading that screenshot and taking the time to collect the data.

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