[Wrath] DPS is NOT Blizzlike!

[Sandbro1]

4/5 images were definetly taken when buff stacking was still availabe - so they are about 2 years old. The only image that is possible to represent an actual dps meter is the one I posted.

Rogues can easily do more than 15k DPS. I was raiding with an Assa Rogue doing constant 15k DPS with 5.9k GS - he got tricks from a second rogue, but still pretty good. Combat does even better.
Retailt Hunters were doing about 18k on Saurfang, while focusing on adds and most likely ICC geared without RS gear. This is the same range you can expect on Warmane as Hunters were already nerfed. Piercing Shots deal way less damage then it did before --> this is a past Moltdown fix.
Rets are still "untouched" - so this is the reason to blame the whole development for being wrong?

Compared to late ICC recordings you have Rets doing too much damage, and assa rogues/enhancement shamans falling behind. Other classes may not be balanced as they were on retail and may be more gear dependend than they should be, but are still capable of achieving a retail like dps.

This thread is basically a nerd rage complain about dps using charts that aren't even accurate for this patch. So you use false information to compare the state of this server to retail.

I assure you I am not nerd-raging at all. I came from a server where players did DPS less than retail, the content was hard to clear but possible for the skilled. My only qualm was content here will go by quickly - too quickly since raid dps will "carry" guilds through content.

This is by no means a "nerd-rage" over "nerf their class! my class sucks!" I'm a Ret/Prot paladin and I'm asking to be nerfed too! Stop with the straw-man fallacies. And no - I didn't setup old pictures, these are from the Warmane forums, reading posts from this month - this very week, along with screencaps posted in the threads. The only reason I made this thread was for clarification if Warmane's DPS was blizzlike or not: and its becoming more evident that it is not. Whether this is due to bugs/lack of gear on retail/"fixes"/whatever is what the thread is trying to solve for.

[Qtinz]

I assure you I am not nerd-raging at all. I came from a server where players did DPS less than retail, the content was hard to clear but possible for the skilled. My only qualm was content here will go by quickly - too quickly since raid dps will "carry" guilds through content.

This is by no means a "nerd-rage" over "nerf their class! my class sucks!" I'm a Ret/Prot paladin and I'm asking to be nerfed too! Stop with the straw-man fallacies. And no - I didn't setup old pictures, these are from the Warmane forums, reading posts from this month - this very week, along with screencaps posted in the threads. The only reason I made this thread was for clarification if Warmane's DPS was blizzlike or not: and its becoming more evident that it is not. Whether this is due to bugs/lack of gear on retail/"fixes"/whatever is what the thread is trying to solve for.

Link to the thread with this picture, please.

€dit: The screenshot shows a kill time for DBS of 69 seconds. This is almost twice as fast as the normal kill speed at the moment on Warmane. Atm. you need about 2min - a little less - to kill DBS. And I'm not talking pugs here, it's the kill speed of LOD-farming guilds. So, either the few LOD guilds suck balls or this screenshot is outdated.
2nd is the fact, that there is a BM-Hunter topping charts. You can also find screenshots of MM-Hunters doing 50k+ DPS on DBS in the forums - but this being possible is ages ago as SP had a ridiculous scaling. Same again: majority of people suck balls or this screenshot is outdated.

[DarkenedHue]

Link to the thread with this picture, please.

That picture can be found in this thread: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....-DPS-PVE-WOTLK.

So yeah, not only was buff-stacking over the top back then, but there was a bug where hunters would benefit from spell power, leading to insane numbers from Chimera Shot. Both of these issues have since been fixed.

The other pictures posted by Sandbro1 can be found in these threads:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....Severance-(DW)
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....dps-spec-3-3-5
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....ks-state-3-3-5

As you can see, all those threads are from 2012 or 2013, which is when buff stacking was broken, and so was spell-power scaling for a lot of classes.

The only picture he posted that was from a recent thread (http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....-other-classes) was this one:



Let's just say that particular hunter is an exceptionally-skilled one :P

[Qtinz]

The only picture he posted that was from a recent thread (http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....-other-classes) was this one:



Let's just say that particular hunter is an exceptionally-skilled one :P

Well, wouldn't even go this road. Skada is badly broken in 3.3.5. DPS isn't as far as accurate as recount, especially on fights with a high event count.

[Sandbro1]

So most of the images I linked were due to issues that were fixed? That's good to hear actually.

Now that last image... still there are insanely high DPS present. First place has a whopping 30k - im mirin'. What else is broke that allows 8 players in a raid to be around and above 25k? I know that access to the highest-level gear was scarce in comparison to retail as it usually is... but I don't think 2-300 GS could account for 5-10,000 DPS increase nomsayin

Also where the f*** are the rogues? I recall 2/3 of their talent trees were potential meter-toppers

[Pibels]

On retail best dps by far was boomkin. It was known as the birth of the boomkin. I don't play wotlk on this server, but if that isn't the case, it needs fix.

Incorrect.

This is what retail DPS looked like. (Warrior has Shadowmourne obviously.)

[KittensForSale]

Ok so you show some averages with unspecified gear from retail, but where are the averages from war-mane to compare it to? What does it show alone? Nothing.

[Pibels]

Ok so you show some averages with unspecified gear from retail, but where are the averages from war-mane to compare it to? What does it show alone? Nothing.

That picture shows top 50 Guilds In the world chart.
We can only provide average DPS, not specific one.
Also this is end of the expansion chart, so I would assume that everyone that was in top 50 guilds in the world,
would have pretty good gear, at least close to bis.

But hey, I'm the one providing data, you're not.

EDIT: We who play End-game content on Warmane WotLK, know how the dps is, and dont need any pictures to compare it to.

[Mercy]

That picture shows top 50 Guilds In the world chart.
We can only provide average DPS, not specific one.
Also this is end of the expansion chart, so I would assume that everyone that was in top 50 guilds in the world,
would have pretty good gear, at least close to bis.

But hey, I'm the one providing data, you're not.

EDIT: We who play End-game content on Warmane WotLK, know how the dps is, and dont need any pictures to compare it to.

You should also take into account the discrepancies between Warmane and retail when it was on that patch. Things like gear marketplace (which increases the average gear of players across the board) and the 30% buff which has always been in place here, but was not always there for retail (in fact, the better the guild was on retail, the more likely a portion of their data was provided pre-30% buff and pre-nerf to some encounters).

[Pibels]

You should also take into account the discrepancies between Warmane and retail when it was on that patch. Things like gear marketplace (which increases the average gear of players across the board) and the 30% buff which has always been in place here, but was not always there for retail (in fact, the better the guild was on retail, the more likely a portion of their data was provided pre-30% buff and pre-nerf to some encounters).

As you can see, that 30% Buff was already there, when this data was captured.
And I believe that everyone was in End-game gear since it's end of the expansion.

Spoiler: Show

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...of-DPS-classes

Spoiler: Show

Source: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73828/s...wrynn#comments

[Mercy]

As you can see, that 30% Buff was already there, when this data was captured.
And I believe that everyone was in End-game gear since it's end of the expansion.

I'm not sure why you're trying to educate me. First, data displayed after the 30% buff was in place is not just data displayed only after the 30% buff was available, nor does it accurately represent the raids that didn't decide to tone down or disable the buff entirely (as it is mixed in with those who did). Secondly, as someone who played on one of the top US realms (realm with multiple world firsts) actively in the raiding community, I believe I can speak to the effect of the average raider's gear level: 277+ ilvl items were not common at all. Retail's raiding atmosphere is just as different from any private server's raiding atmosphere as it is from the general approach (as in, VERY different). There are plenty discrepancies between the two which are not taken into account, ranging from the fact that you could only do two ICC raids per week per character (as opposed to four here on Warmane), heroic tier tokens drop far more commonly than they should, ICC was current content for a significantly shorter amount of time than what it has been on Warmane (and previously, Molten), and simply that many bosses are far easier than they should be (Professor Putricide for starters) - which, ultimately, makes the content far more accessible here than it was on retail.

This isn't even to say that you are trying to compare the max of what you've seen here on Warmane to what is the average on WoL. Which isn't fair in more than one way. First, you're comparing a far smaller data samples from Warmane to a superior number of samples from retail. Secondly, you're comparing what you consider to be "too high" of numbers, which are top-end numbers by definition, to numbers that are "in the middle of the pack", which is an approximate definition of "average".

In addition, the MMOChamp link you provided, the OP which created the chart mentioned he tried to exclude people who were getting buffed Hysteria/Power Infusion/Tricks of the Trade/etc.

Thereby, I rule the comparison skewed and inaccurate.

I won't disagree that some damage numbers are inaccurate. I personally believe that double dipping issues with damage increase modifiers (the 30% buff being the biggest factor here) are the biggest contributors to the issue. Of course, we will address the issues. But when it comes right down to it, a more accurate comparison would be done with coefficients and more specific sorts of parsing data, not just generalized data picked up from across the board - as in, data provided by a 'scientific control' would be preferred. Such data isn't easily accessible since the Wrath expansion on retail is long past and won't return, so we'll have to work with what we have. I also understand that is what you're trying to do here as well, work with what you have, but that will serve to help you understand what we have to deal with. There is no perfect controlled data we can pull information from or replicate, so we'll just have to do our best with what we have. Feel free to report scaling issues or mechanic errors with spells of all sorts on the bug-tracker.

[Pibels]

Yes, sorry I'm not very familiar with the retail end-game raiding in retail, since I wasn't there.
I can only provide data which is still out there and what I've heard from past.
But hey, we will get there eventually, I've seen huge difference between Molten and Warmane now.
Things that actually impact the game, are getting fixed, which is awesome.
Year ago we would see WotLK update every 6 months, or whenever I would check bugtracker there would be tons of bugs and nothing would be done to them. Now when I go to bugtracker Devs are taking care of the bugs and that really means a lot to community I think.

[Mahourai]

Well, wouldn't even go this road. Skada is badly broken in 3.3.5. DPS isn't as far as accurate as recount, especially on fights with a high event count.

Is this a Molten thing? Because Skada was closer to WoL than Recount was in 3.3.5a. You'll see lower DPS numbers, yeah, but that's because Skada accurately tracks "DPS", unlike Recount.

EDIT:

Two other thoughts. If the raid has full BiS gear, then yes, they should be blowing through encounters because it would be ridiculous otherwise. Doing 15kdps in BiS would be dreadful and just as artificially ****ed up as doing 25kdps. Also, the biggest problem in trivializing encounters is poor scripting, not too-high DPS. Most DPS at, say, 264 ilvl is much more realistic, it's the ability to fight a tank and spank version of a boss that makes things too easy. If Putricide were fully scripted, the max creditcard DPS wouldn't help at all unless players swapped to adds and stacked only when necessary.

[Jijipls]

Rogues should be one of the best DPS classes in the whole expansion, but here at Warmane Rogues are the last DPS

You haven't raided much with good and geared rogues lately.
Assassination isn't viable afaik, but combat rogues are pulling good DPS - as I said, good and geared ones are on the top 5, also it's the class the bursts the most.

[Sandbro1]

Is this a Molten thing? Because Skada was closer to WoL than Recount was in 3.3.5a. You'll see lower DPS numbers, yeah, but that's because Skada accurately tracks "DPS", unlike Recount.

EDIT:

Two other thoughts. If the raid has full BiS gear, then yes, they should be blowing through encounters because it would be ridiculous otherwise. Doing 15kdps in BiS would be dreadful and just as artificially ****ed up as doing 25kdps. Also, the biggest problem in trivializing encounters is poor scripting, not too-high DPS. Most DPS at, say, 264 ilvl is much more realistic, it's the ability to fight a tank and spank version of a boss that makes things too easy. If Putricide were fully scripted, the max creditcard DPS wouldn't help at all unless players swapped to adds and stacked only when necessary.

I recall PP 25 HC was insane to pull over or let alone near 10k DPS as many melees - especially Retries since half of the their damage requires "rev-up" time but the oozes would either reach their target or be destroyed right when all the buffs and DoTs were at their full potential, causing nonstop resets. A difficult fight for melee... dodging the choking gas bombs or your DPS gets rekt to nothing... pretty hard but still a fun fight.