Ulduar and other servers

[Kelthuzzad]

Perhaps I shouldn't be bringing this up in this thread but it kind of is related to ulduar mostly.

I'm not really sure if I want to join this server yet before a few things are made clear about realm first kills. Ulduar achievements have always been special and ones that everyone wanted but couldn't obtain such as Death's Demise and the algalon one(yeh, too lazy to look it up ;p).

So I would like to ask warmane if any monitoring is going to occur for guilds/raids that do actually get the realm first kills. As in, is there or will there be anything in place to ensure fair gaming and that kills are done legit? As you may recall, a lot of drama happened in the past with realm first kills. Accusations of exploiting used to be thrown all over the place and it was quite chaotic.

If I am correct, the only way for a raid to be caught is if a GM is monitoring them live. If not, there won't be any other way unfortunately. Therefore, if kills are made and no videos are posted, no one would ever be able to tell or have proof if fair kills were made.

How will warmane combat this? Will fair game-play be ensured?

Cheers.

To be honest raids cannot be monitored 24/7 by the staff members so actually ''checking'' them while doing the kill is impossible (to do all raids that do the content)... So i don't know how that would work... People usually demand videos of those who have killed the bosses to show they done it the right way and that's the only way i know.... Gms usually watch some raids but they can't watch them all... They gonna have a progression ''tree'' or something on the armory so you can see which guilds clear it faster. But otherwise i don't know how they gonna handle it but the realm first achievements are gonna work hopefully so it's gonna be interesting to see which guilds are gonna compete and who will emerge victorious :) Most raids that have been done with exploiting afaik (the bigger guilds) has been banned..

[Jayrogu]

To be honest raids cannot be monitored 24/7 by the staff members so actually ''checking'' them while doing the kill is impossible (to do all raids that do the content)... So i don't know how that would work... People usually demand videos of those who have killed the bosses to show they done it the right way and that's the only way i know.... Gms usually watch some raids but they can't watch them all... They gonna have a progression ''tree'' or something on the armory so you can see which guilds clear it faster. But otherwise i don't know how they gonna handle it but the realm first achievements are gonna work hopefully so it's gonna be interesting to see which guilds are gonna compete and who will emerge victorious :) Most raids that have been done with exploiting afaik (the bigger guilds) has been banned..

Yes, videos do prove fair game-play, unless of course they are edited from a multi-PoV and hide 'certain things.'

However, what would happen if for example a guild kills a boss, gets realm first, but doesn't have a video to show? As we all know, bugs could exist when those bosses are released at first and their could be ways to avoid certain mechanics and such. That's why I'm asking to see if anything can be done to combat kills without proof or evidence of fair game-play :)

It definitely would not be fair if, for example, X raid killed a boss in a non-legit way and did not provide anything to support their claim of realm first(Pics don't really count). That would be quite sad for all the other guilds that were trying to do it appropriately, right?

[Esreverrr]

Combat logs exist for a reason.

[Kelthuzzad]

Yes, videos do prove fair game-play, unless of course they are edited from a multi-PoV and hide 'certain things.'

However, what would happen if for example a guild kills a boss, gets realm first, but doesn't have a video to show? As we all know, bugs could exist when those bosses are released at first and their could be ways to avoid certain mechanics and such. That's why I'm asking to see if anything can be done to combat kills without proof or evidence of fair game-play :)

It definitely would not be fair if, for example, X raid killed a boss in a non-legit way and did not provide anything to support their claim of realm first(Pics don't really count). That would be quite sad for all the other guilds that were trying to do it appropriately, right?

As Eserverrr said you can always check the logs if there is something fishy about a kill... Still i mean if there is gonna be problems with the bosses and they kill it even with those bugs existing (negative/positive) it's still technically a kill unless you exploited it... I mean the bosses will be fixed shortly after the bug appaers i hope.. Still realm first achievements can be taken away if a guild has exploited (has been done in retail). Yeah i answered your second question also.... Videos are the way to prove it... Frapsing the actual kill.

[Lolmaru]

As Eserverrr said you can always check the logs if there is something fishy about a kill... Still i mean if there is gonna be problems with the bosses and they kill it even with those bugs existing (negative/positive) it's still technically a kill unless you exploited it... I mean the bosses will be fixed shortly after the bug appaers i hope.. Still realm first achievements can be taken away if a guild has exploited (has been done in retail). Yeah i answered your second question also.... Videos are the way to prove it... Frapsing the actual kill.

To expand on this, realm first kills in the past had no credit unless there was a video involved. It is 2015 and the excuse that your computer cant record is complete rubbish. One person in that 25 man group will be able to record. Also QA's are present sometimes during kills or attempts. Though not really sure if this would work with many hours of progression. In the end this is a private server and as its nice to get realm firsts there is always the skeptics and haters, and realm firsts don't mean nearly as much as retail.

[Jayrogu]

Not that I don't want to believe you guys. I do.

However, and from what I've seen throughout all my time here, combat/log files were never used(if they are implemented to begin with) to check and ban raids/guilds after making kills. The only way it has been done so far and from what I've seen are raids/guilds getting banned due to live monitoring of them by a GM or by GMs observing videos that contained exploiting/abuse after the kills(If a video is available that is).

I understand that it's 2015 and videos of kills should be present. But what if someone says..."Oh...we recorded all our attempts except the last one when we gave up and wanted to do a last attempt. And then we did it!" or "We had someone who could record but he forgot to start recording before the pull :x" or a raid/guild that does it that doesn't even exist on the forum and just want to play the game instead of coming on here to post and stuff. Etc etc...

But anyway, let's just see how things go for now :)
GL.

[Esreverrr]

If people are honestly this worried about things like this, bring up the idea of offering your services as a limited power GM that remains invisible and may enter raid IDs (no other GM powers) to watch out for this type of behavior to the developers. Record the evidence. Get people banned.

[Kelthuzzad]

Not that I don't want to believe you guys. I do.

However, and from what I've seen throughout all my time here, combat/log files were never used(if they are implemented to begin with) to check and ban raids/guilds after making kills. The only way it has been done so far and from what I've seen are raids/guilds getting banned due to live monitoring of them by a GM or by GMs observing videos that contained exploiting/abuse after the kills(If a video is available that is).

I understand that it's 2015 and videos of kills should be present. But what if someone says..."Oh...we recorded all our attempts except the last one when we gave up and wanted to do a last attempt. And then we did it!" or "We had someone who could record but he forgot to start recording before the pull :x" or a raid/guild that does it that doesn't even exist on the forum and just want to play the game instead of coming on here to post and stuff. Etc etc...

But anyway, let's just see how things go for now :)
GL.

To be honest those who have recorded kills and actually used exploits have been banned.. I'm not gonna mention any names but some cata guilds got banned for exploiting and they recorded themselves (stupidity enough) while exploiting buffs... Yeah perhaps they never checked the logs but without a video you cannot claim a first kill in theory sooo... No video no actual claim. Well i guess it can be brought up as a suggestion by the staff or people could apply themselves but i doubt people would get a job just to monitor raids but it can be suggested. People who say that they didn't record or stream their kills by the simple excuse that it's the last attempt is kinda vauge and shady in my opinion.... Although i understand your example but in reality that would not happen and would just raise suspiciousness or how to call it..

[Jayrogu]

Maybe I'm just overthinking things. After all, as was said before, it's a private server.

People who say that they didn't record or stream their kills by the simple excuse that it's the last attempt is kinda vauge and shady in my opinion....

I agree. However, suppose it happens. They get a realm first kill without proof. I don't think warmane has a policy in place to demand videos or proof of legit kills. So even if everyone thinks X raid didn't kill the boss appropriately, there's nothing that can be done. I don't think warmane can strip away titles and achievements if no proof(whether in the form of videos or pics) is available. At the same time, there's no policy that demands videos/pics to be present as proof for legit kills.

@Esreverrr, that's not a bad idea but monitoring all raids is difficult. There would have to be a lot of people monitoring at different times. Could still be suggested though.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be in a progressing guild right? You wouldn't want some X raid/guild to kill bosses in a non-legit way and claim achis/titles that you would be trying to achieve fairly.

[Esreverrr]

From my experience, things don't remain secret on private servers very long. Surely if anything were to happen in which X guild used exploitative tactics to achieve a server first, word will get around and it will be looked into. If not by the Warmane staff, than the community. There comes a point where self-policing comes into play too.

[Kelthuzzad]

Maybe I'm just overthinking things. After all, as was said before, it's a private server.



I agree. However, suppose it happens. They get a realm first kill without proof. I don't think warmane has a policy in place to demand videos or proof of legit kills. So even if everyone thinks X raid didn't kill the boss appropriately, there's nothing that can be done. I don't think warmane can strip away titles and achievements if no proof(whether in the form of videos or pics) is available. At the same time, there's no policy that demands videos/pics to be present as proof for legit kills.

@Esreverrr, that's not a bad idea but monitoring all raids is difficult. There would have to be a lot of people monitoring at different times. Could still be suggested though.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be in a progressing guild right? You wouldn't want some X raid/guild to kill bosses in a non-legit way and claim achis/titles that you would be trying to achieve fairly.

No there is no direct policy but the community (usually) demands it... As Eserverrr said the word usually gets around if someone had exploited a kill.. It always does (most of the time). So i don't think you need to worry about that. Yeah as i said you cannot monitor like 24/7 haha :D Even if i wish you could! Of course not which is why our plan is to race to the realm firsts without any shady crap :)

[Lolmaru]

If it goes anything like mop I'm honestly worried. There was so many exploits being done about realm first kills and the staff of molten didn't even care. They know there's a ton of exploits on mop and they're still not fixed. It's the biggest reason our guild <Milk> , a guild who prided themselves on doing everything legit, died and a lot of the members quit. there just wasn't staff that seemed to care enough about the progression. Take for example council in ToT. We struggled for over 2 hours on that fight to kill it legit, just to find out some other guild killed it using one healer that had a bugged 4 set. (Priest) Maybe it's because the content is so broken its not worth the staff's time. Anyways, I hope the competition is monitored and staff are actually involved.

[Obnoxious]

If people are honestly this worried about things like this, bring up the idea of offering your services as a limited power GM that remains invisible and may enter raid IDs (no other GM powers) to watch out for this type of behavior to the developers. Record the evidence. Get people banned.

I can tell you right now that wouldn't be happening, so no need for it to be taken further in the discussion.

[green_dev]

If it goes anything like mop I'm honestly worried.

Would be like on cata or better. I don't remember a lot of exploits at Ragnaros or Madness.

[Kelthuzzad]

Would be like on cata or better. I don't remember a lot of exploits at Ragnaros or Madness.

Not really related to Ragnaros but class/buff exploiting along with the water bubble ''bug'' or whatever it was so a lot of people had the bubbles in the raid to clear the fire in the last phase but that was fixed once the guild who used it (think it was BLAZING FOURTEEN) got reported.