This server will become P2W ?

[Bioness]

Pay to Win also means being able to do something in a lower amount of time than someone not paying. I believe you are missing that little detail in your "google search".

Literally the first link when you google "pay to win"

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Even if you can eventually obtain the gear that doesn't excuse the fact that someone else could have close to your gear level without putting in the effort in game. So yes, technically Lordaeron is Pay-To-Win with their current business model.

[Gigusx2]

Pay to Win also means being able to do something in a lower amount of time than someone not paying. I believe you are missing that little detail in your "google search".

Literally the first link when you google "pay to win"

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items than everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Even if you can eventually obtain the gear that doesn't excuse the fact that someone else could have close to your gear level without putting in the effort in game. So yes, technically Lordaeron is Pay-To-Win with their current business model.

Exactly.

By your definition, retail is "pay to win," since someone on a free account will have limited access, and paying subscribers will have a multitude of "advantages," like access to the whole game.

It's called a starter edition for a reason. Spoiler: it's not a full version.

[Mercy]

can any staff member explain pls how exactly this "updrage" will work.
what i am asking is if i have t9 then ICC release can i intantly donate for t10?

We haven't set out a specific plan for ICC, as that is quite a way down the road.
How it will work with Naxx & Ulduar is like this.
Naxx 25 is available = you can donate for Naxx 10 gear. (That's right now, I believe.)
Ulduar is made available, let's assume it's all sizes&difficulties = Ulduar 25 & hard modes (do not confuse with heroic) are available = Ulduar 10 loot can be donated for.

ToC and ICC complicates things a bit, since both of those raids have 4 difficulty&size settings. Since we haven't set an specific plan for these just yet, I can't give you an exact statement on how it will be handled. That being said, I would expect that once ICC 25 heroic is available, you will be able to donate up to 264 ilvl, and then up to 271 ilvl once Ruby Sanctum 25 heroic is available.

Will everything be available for donations once all content is available? I cannot say, but probably not -- being limited to 271 ilvl at the highest.
Shadowmourne and Valanyr? As of our current design choice, they won't be donate-able -- quest chains only.

Of course, we're accepting feedback on the matter.

So yes, technically Lordaeron is Pay-To-Win with their current business model.

Aye, that can't be denied. But the real question is: Is it fair? Is it acceptable?

[Bioness]

*Disclaimer: I don't necessarily think the current business model of Lordaeron is bad, however claiming it isn't Pay-To-Win is simply false.

As for me, I don't mind giving a bit here and there if it makes life easier.

Aye, that can't be denied. But the real question is: Is it fair? Is it acceptable?

I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. While I would prefer the store not include raid gear, my opinion isn't strong enough to make an argument against it.

[Gigusx2]

*Disclaimer: I don't necessarily think the current business model of Lordaeron is bad, however claiming it isn't Pay-To-Win is simply false.

As for me, I don't mind giving a bit here and there if it makes life easier.

I think it's pretty good too, considering what else it could've been, I still would prefer if they only offered mounts and .. well less powerful stuff (ilvl-wise) but it's still pretty good. I still think they should offer items 2 tiers below current content instead of 1, at least counting from ICC.

[OHW0815]

exactly this, i can see it already, full pvp players with no raid achivements entering arenas with full hc trinkets.
To say the least

Won't happen if you are only able to donate equip that is one tier below the actual content or in this case - the end content.

[Skoobydoo]

We haven't set out a specific plan for ICC, as that is quite a way down the road.
How it will work with Naxx & Ulduar is like this.
Naxx 25 is available = you can donate for Naxx 10 gear. (That's right now, I believe.)
Ulduar is made available, let's assume it's all sizes&difficulties = Ulduar 25 & hard modes (do not confuse with heroic) are available = Ulduar 10 loot can be donated for.

ToC and ICC complicates things a bit, since both of those raids have 4 difficulty&size settings. Since we haven't set an specific plan for these just yet, I can't give you an exact statement on how it will be handled. That being said, I would expect that once ICC 25 heroic is available, you will be able to donate up to 264 ilvl, and then up to 271 ilvl once Ruby Sanctum 25 heroic is available.

Will everything be available for donations once all content is available? I cannot say, but probably not -- being limited to 271 ilvl at the highest.
Shadowmourne and Valanyr? As of our current design choice, they won't be donate-able -- quest chains only.

Of course, we're accepting feedback on the matter.


Aye, that can't be denied. But the real question is: Is it fair? Is it acceptable?

so you are telling us you cant buy BIS gear but only PRE-BIS.if this is how it will work ( even only for naxx/unduar content) that will be great.

[Obnoxious]

Pay to Win also means being able to do something in a lower amount of time than someone not paying. I believe you are missing that little detail in your "google search".

All of which just shows that "pay to win" is something more subjective than objective. People have different points of view over what it and isn't "pay to win," much like the the same way some people will swear that ganking is "world PvP" and others will say it isn't. If you want to call the way Lordaeron will be handled "pay to win," go ahead. It's not like we'll make adjustments for the sole reason of no one calling it that.

so you are telling us you cant buy BIS gear but only PRE-BIS.if this is how it will work ( even only for naxx/unduar content) that will be great.

Kaer has stated that all tiers will eventually be available in the store, the last one supposedly a few months after that content is available in-game.

[Skoobydoo]

All of which just shows that "pay to win" is something more subjective than objective. People have different points of view over what it and isn't "pay to win," much like the the same way some people will swear that ganking is "world PvP" and others will say it isn't. If you want to call the way Lordaeron will be handled "pay to win," go ahead. It's not like we'll make adjustments for the sole reason of no one calling it that.



Kaer has stated that all tiers will eventually be available in the store, the last one supposedly a few months after that content is available in-game.

so lets say ulduar release you can donate for 10man and 2 months later you will you able to donate for 25man?system like that well be fair.
honestly i dont even consider P2W existing in PVE,unless effect realm first echiev,you dont really win much and there is no1 losing anything.only time when coin shop can be unfair and a problem is if there is BIS pvp gear same time or very shortly after season start.

[Obnoxious]

so lets say ulduar release you can donate for 10man and 2 months later you will you able to donate for 25man?system like that well be fair.

It will go (as far as current plans are) so once a new tier of content is released, the previous one will go in the store, with the exception of the very last one, that will have an undetermined delay of some months, so people will still have to grind and struggle in-game if they want it now and so people who donate can't just skip ahead past the other players.

[Uzihunter]

We haven't set out a specific plan for ICC, as that is quite a way down the road.
How it will work with Naxx & Ulduar is like this.
Naxx 25 is available = you can donate for Naxx 10 gear. (That's right now, I believe.)
Ulduar is made available, let's assume it's all sizes&difficulties = Ulduar 25 & hard modes (do not confuse with heroic) are available = Ulduar 10 loot can be donated for.

ToC and ICC complicates things a bit, since both of those raids have 4 difficulty&size settings. Since we haven't set an specific plan for these just yet, I can't give you an exact statement on how it will be handled. That being said, I would expect that once ICC 25 heroic is available, you will be able to donate up to 264 ilvl, and then up to 271 ilvl once Ruby Sanctum 25 heroic is available.

Will everything be available for donations once all content is available? I cannot say, but probably not -- being limited to 271 ilvl at the highest.
Shadowmourne and Valanyr? As of our current design choice, they won't be donate-able -- quest chains only.

Of course, we're accepting feedback on the matter.


Aye, that can't be denied. But the real question is: Is it fair? Is it acceptable?

idk,but this kinda makes me sad...I know that "you can leave server if you don't like it etc. thing" but from my perspective,this totally destroys feeling of progression...As you will be able to go directly to Ulduar without Naxx achievement,where you can be boosted to get good gear,thats already kinda "skipping" content,and plus all that - some rich kid can just buy gear from previous content without seeing it or getting achievement and rush into current content...where is progression here? We love this game,we like to play it and we like to struggle for gear,thats magic about this game and with just buying gear someone's gonna take your spot in guild or raid,because all wotlk "whisper ilvl" thing,while you actually trying to DESERVE your item...idk,this is only thing that ruins expirience for me,all this bugs,lags etc.I know it will work out just fine,because its already good...but this...Disabling RDF for hardcore feeling,but selling gear haha idk,I really can't understand...If money is the thing,you can always sell some insta 70's or some exotic mounts...idk,thats just my opinion...

[Bioness]

All of which just shows that "pay to win" is something more subjective than objective. People have different points of view over what it and isn't "pay to win," much like the the same way some people will swear that ganking is "world PvP" and others will say it isn't. If you want to call the way Lordaeron will be handled "pay to win," go ahead. It's not like we'll make adjustments for the sole reason of no one calling it that.

I don't feel like making an argument of this, I look at those words and take them for face value seeing nothing subjective about.

Pay-To-Win: Are you paying? Yes. Are you paying for something that allows an advantage over those not paying? Yes. Then it is Pay-To-Win. Having to spend less time doing something to achieve the same result is by definition an advantage. Hell even games with both a subscription and free model fall into this.

In real world similarities compare a person who drives across the country to one who takes a plane. The person in plane is paying for the ticket and is essentially taking the same action as a person driving i.e. they are traveling. Which one has the advantage? The person driving or the one taking the plane? I hope you answered plane, or else I dearly wish you never reproduce.

As for your World PvP comparison. Is it in the world? Yes. Is it PvP (Player vs. Player)? Yes, by definition it is World PvP. Now is it fair that the level 80 can wipe out lowbies in the same manner as a blade to grass? No, but that doesn't change the base definition no matter how much you think your "opinion" is correct.

/Semantics rant over

[Radvo]

In real world similarities compare a person who drives across the country to one who takes a plane. The person in plane is paying for the ticket and is essentially taking the same action as a person driving i.e. they are traveling. Which one has the advantage? The person driving or the one taking the plane? I hope you answered plane, or else I dearly wish you never reproduce.

Except the person driving will pay more. Bad example.

You're not paying to win, you're paying to skip content.

[Obnoxious]

I don't feel like making an argument of this, I look at those words and take them for face value seeing nothing subjective about.

Pay-To-Win: Are you paying? Yes. Are you paying for something that allows an advantage over those not paying? Yes. Then it is Pay-To-Win. Having to spend less time doing something to achieve the same result is by definition an advantage.

In real world similarities compare a person who drives across the country to one who takes a plane. The person in plane is paying for the ticket and is essentially taking the same action as a person driving i.e. they are traveling. Which one has the advantage? The person drive or the one taking the plane.

As for your World PvP comparison. Is it in the world? Yes. Is it PvP (Player vs. Player)? Yes, by definition it is World PvP. Now is it fair that the level 80 can wipe out lowbies in the same manner as a blade to grass? No, but that doesn't change the base definition no matter how much you think your "opinion" is correct.

/Semantics rant over

By your definition, someone who buys a mount in the WoW store is "paying to win," then, which most people would consider a ridiculous point of view.

[Uzihunter]

By your definition, someone who buys a mount in the WoW store is "paying to win," then, which most people would consider a ridiculous point of view.

You can't kill dragons in raids with mount :D well,as far as I know haha