LoD Guilds Exploits

[Sixtyninee]

Right, because that's totally the same. All I mentioned is doable almost retail like. Not doing it is an intentional abuse of a bug/exploit and should be dealed with the same way you deal with JoJ.

You demanded consistency and yet you raise certain bugs above others with no logical explanation beside how it suites your personal playstyle. And just to be clear: Idc about how JoJ or any other bug is treated. Ban people for 90days if you can guarantee to ban everyone who's abusing it. But do it with every exploit.

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, regardless of how far you missed the point.

[Lynea]

So, stacking tombs on Sindra is worth a raidwide ban?

Literally the only change that stacking tombs does different than the standard retail strat, when considering the current state of the boss, is increase the chance of losing a player to asphyxiation since all tombs are left up for the full duration of the phase, rather than just leaving 1 up and killing the rest.

[Disktrasa]

Feels like everytime someone makes a post (no matter how much it's on point) you have to argue about it instead of trying to se their point of view on the matter, Everyone has their own opinion.
Both sides of this discussion comes with great ideas on how to handle this very situation but everytime someone posts something about it, do you really have to find something in that post you can quote and argue about?

The things the GM's said is final, and thats it, In the end the GM's have the last say and you should respect that.

"We are not here to ban as many people as we can but rather to remove the possibility of players of being banned in the first place."

Wich is exactly why they work so much on a new core, instead of banning people left and right. If you do not understand this, Im sorry, you dont WANT to understand, you just want to argue.

[magaginho]

Feels like everytime someone makes a post (no matter how much it's on point) you have to argue about it instead of trying to se their point of view on the matter, Everyone has their own opinion.
Both sides of this discussion comes with great ideas on how to handle this very situation but everytime someone posts something about it, do you really have to find something in that post you can quote and argue about?

The things the GM's said is final, and thats it, In the end the GM's have the last say and you should respect that.


Wich is exactly why they work so much on a new core, instead of banning people left and right. If you do not understand this, Im sorry, you dont WANT to understand, you just want to argue.

There's a huge difference between arguing and debating. What the GM's state doesn't need to be 100% correct/precise. They're humans and they have space to fail as well. In my personal point of view (and apparently I'm not the only one in this thread) they're letting many points open and many questions without a proper answer.

We're not here to question their dedication or authority. We're here making several solid questions (for the interest of the whole community - Otherwise this post wouldn't have so many views) that still remain without a proper answer. If you fail to understand (even) this point I lost my whole faith.

[Lynea]

Feels like everytime someone makes a post (no matter how much it's on point) you have to argue about it instead of trying to se their point of view on the matter, Everyone has their own opinion.
Both sides of this discussion comes with great ideas on how to handle this very situation but everytime someone posts something about it, do you really have to find something in that post you can quote and argue about?

The things the GM's said is final, and thats it, In the end the GM's have the last say and you should respect that.


Wich is exactly why they work so much on a new core, instead of banning people left and right. If you do not understand this, Im sorry, you dont WANT to understand, you just want to argue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Proterean]

I think we already addressed the questions. What you don't seem to like is the answers. We will reiterate once again. We will not ban anyone for simply using a class ability in a way

Comparisons that you have used previously are not worth discussing. They're fundamentally different. You keep ignoring this point and you keep pressing on meaning that we can't possibly debate this further while you're still having issues with the basic arguments.

Let's mention them again briefly and debunk them as well.

• Not equal treatment
  Incorrect, we have never banned anyone for this case. We're treating everyone equally.
  
• But you banned a guild last year for using a hacking program in the raid.
  Yes, so? What does that have to do with this? Using a hacking program and having a mountain of evidence that people were aware of it in the raid has nothing to do with this case. They're fundamentally and completely different. Mentioning this further will bring you nothing.
  
• You banned a guild because of a script issue last year, why not this one?
  If we make mistakes, we own up to them. Bans were undone and removed from accounts' history. Still, these cases are again fundamentally different and have nothing to do with this.
  
• You ignored my points.
  You did not read our replies. We addressed every single thing from the Radiance ban to Warriors' exploits. If you reply to our posts and write "i will not read further" and then say that we ignore your points, I'm afraid that we can't do much about that.
  
• Not equal treatment.
  Read again.
  
• But others were banned.
  No.
  
• But that means we can exploit and not get banned. That's terrible.
  No, it means that we are not able to differentiate between intentional or accidental. If someone submitted a video where the raid leader instructs raid members to do so or raid members show awareness that it's indeed an exploit we would react.
  
• You said it's your fault that exploits happened.
  We took responsibility for no development support to those realms. Reasons were obvious. We worked on betterment on the core and wasted no time in trying to make it good and dedicated our full focus towards it for the benefit of the greater good for not only WoTLK realms but Cataclysm/MoP realms because older content can be ported more easily and it's scripted, correct. You can take that as you wish and consider it as terrible but it was our decision and we owned up to it went through it.
  
• THAT WAS INTENTIONAL!
  You cannot tell and neither can we. Acting like all players in every raiding guild are geniuses and never make mistakes. The amount of times I've participated and saw people forgetting to change their PvP spec into PvE or the amount of times I've done it myself cannot be counted.
  
• BUT THAT WAS INTENTIONAL! WHY DONT YOU BELIEVE?
  Because it's our responsibility to give everyone benefit of the doubt. Even in harsher exploits when it comes to dupes and such we give the benefit of the doubt to the player and often investigate, interrogate and even lower punishments if provided information is good enough.
  
• Who decides about whether someone gets banned or not? Who decides about ban durations and such?
  The staff and primarily the GM team.
  
• Why did standards change?
  They never did change. Just different cases, different ways of dealing with them. Nearly every exploit case is fundamentally different than the last one.
  

One fact stands, this could be accidental. We won't ban anyone with that fact still standing and there's no reason to do that. On top of that, this will no longer be an issue in just a day. It's certainly not an excuse but it's a thing to keep in mind nevertheless.

[magaginho]

Dear Proterean;

I've already understood that your mind is way too set. I won't persist in this theory and I won't even feed this point anymore. It's not worth. When people are with their mind set for a certain point or goal - Most of them can't be changed. This is the specific case. I've tried (several members of the community tried) to show you another point of view. You're seeing this in a way that " They want a ban trip ". When we don't. Clean that mind set, re-read everything that has been posted so far and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll see that there's another side of the cube.

All the points that you touch - Some of them I'm unaware. Some of them I don't even want to go there.

The way you're diagnosing this situation is inconsistent. Completely inconsistent. Stating that the responsible team is not able of seeing if some acts were intentional or not - That's pure innocence. Now I'll remind you;

We took responsibility for no development support to those realms. Reasons were obvious. We worked on betterment on the core and wasted no time in trying to make it good and dedicated our full focus towards it for the benefit of the greater good for not only WoTLK realms but Cataclysm/MoP realms because older content can be ported more easily and it's scripted, correct. You can take that as you wish and consider it as terrible but it was our decision and we owned up to it went through it.

Now explain me why I see people that are unaware of the Titan's Grip exploit being banned or warned in-game of that same exploit. See the difference here? Do I need to show proofs of this same acts?

You did not read our replies. We addressed every single thing from the Radiance ban to Warriors' exploits. If you reply to our posts and write "i will not read further" and then say that we ignore your points, I'm afraid that we can't do much about that.

I did see your replies. Every single point. I've seen this whole situation been thrown into a dev team issue (in a really indirect way). With this said, Mr. Proterean, whenever you need evidences of those same people that you state and defend with every single teeth that are innocent: Feel free to contact me. I'm a polite person and I'll gladly provide those videos/screenshots for the good sake of the community - That's also one of my goals as a member of the community.

[Mercy]

I believe everyone has the chance to say their peace. The discussion is over, more or less. So I will be closing the thread now. Your opinions and input are appreciated.