**** HUGE THANKS TO AEDIR FOR HELPING ME MAKE THIS LIST****
MUST See purepownage's replies on my thread for wisdom! It will help you understand better some of my (or his, actually) gear choices. Half of my Hard Mode list is his work!
Normal Mode
Head: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46143 (Thorim 25, 58 Emblems of Conquest)
Neck: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=51807 (Valentines World Event) / http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45820 (19 Emblems of Conquest)
Note #1 on Necks: Sweet Perfume Brooch and Broach of the Wailing Night have exactly the same stats.
Note #2 on Necks: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44664 (EoE 25 from Sapphiron's key quest) is very close in terms of stats to both of these necks. However, the Sweet Perfume Brooch/Broach of the Wailing Night are slightly better than Favor, no matter how you gem it. But, if you do not have enough ARP to be able to stack it, then Favor is better if you gem it with +20 Agility. If you gem it with +16 Agility then it's about the same.
Which means that, if you have the Favor of the Dragon Queen, you shouldn't waste Emblems of Conquest on the Broach if you need something else for the Emblems.
Shoulders: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46145 (T8.5, Yogg-Saron 25)
Cloak: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40403 (Kel'Thuzad 25). http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45704 (Kologarn 10) if not hitcapped.
Chest: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46141 (T8.5, 58 Emblems of Conquest or Hodir 25)
Wrist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45454 (Hodir 25)
Gloves: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46142 (T8.5, Mimiron 25, Emalon the Stone Watcher 25)
Waist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45467 (Thorim 25)
Legs: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45143 (Razorscale 25)
Boots: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45562 (Leatherworking crafted item, http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45095 drops randomly off any Ulduar boss)
Rings: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45157 (Ignis the Furnace Master 25), http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45503 (General Vezax 25)
Note on Rings: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=48954 is a very good alternative to either of the rings I mentioned. It has very good stats compared to the Cindershard Ring however you lose ARP, so I would not replace Cindershard with it. However if you cannot stack ARP yet the Etched Band is actually way better than the Cindershard Ring. Also it is only a bit worse than the Metallic Loop of the Sufferer. Therefore, even though it is not BiS, you should still get it as it will take some time to get both of the BiS rings.
Trinkets: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 and http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40256 (Grobbulus/Maexxna/Gothik/Heigan 25) or http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45522 (Yogg Saron 25, see note #1)
Note #1 on Trinkets: Use Blood of the Old God instead of Grim Toll if you don't have enough hit rating (you will probably not have any hit problems though)
Note #2 on Trinkets: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45286 (Flame Leviathan 10) is an extremely good and a way cheaper alternative to Blood of the Old God.
Melee Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45498 (General Vezax 25)
Ranged Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45261 (Kologarn 25)
Hardmode/Algalon Changes:
Neck: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45517 (General Vezax 25HM)
Shoulder: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45300 (Flame Leviathan 10HM)
Cloak: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46032 (General Vezax 10HM)
Gloves: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45444 (XT Deconstructor 25HM)
Legs: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45536 (Yogg Saron 25HM)
Rings: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46322 (Algalon quest 10M), http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45608 (Algalon quest 25M)
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45931 (Thorim 10HM), http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44253 or http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46038 (Algalon 10)
Ranged Weapon: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45570 (Thorim 25HM, Algalon 25)
4 Set Piece bonus isn't really worth it, see explanation at purepownage's replies below.
If you feel that some item choice is wrong, post here and I may edit it, or tell you why you're wrong.
Enjoy.
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Member
Skadi's Ulduar Marksmanship Hunter BiS List
Edited: April 29, 2016
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Dargenslayer
Head: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46143
Neck: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45517
Shoulders: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45300
Cloak: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46032
Chest: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46141
Wrist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45454
Gloves: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45444
Waist: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45467
Legs: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45536
Feet: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45562
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45608
Ring: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46322
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=46038
Trinket: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45931
2h: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45498
Ranged: http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45570
Here's my take on a BiS list (including hardmodes) ^
This is the spec I intend to run the item setup with: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#cxbZMeVoRhzGIstuAox00b
A common misconception I see when people gear hunters is that it's bad to place points in Focused Aim, but I think it's quite the opposite. When the DPS gain can be over +40 DPS per point spent you're looking at a talent pick that beats many of its competitors at this gear level. I can also see your idea of stacking ARP as much as you can, but stacking ARP for the sake of getting more ARP does not work in this tier of content - you need the proper attack power to back the ARP up with, or else it isn't as good as you would think it is. Or in other words - the stats you're sacrificing in order to get that extra bit of ARP equals an actual DPS loss compared to the DPS gain those extra points of ARP gives you.
The sweet spot for this (i.e, how far can you stack ARP while giving up on other, higher item level or better itemized gear pieces) is something that I have calculated and, to my knowledge, arrived to with my item list. Here is a graph, using my gear setup showing the values of ARP compared to some other of our useful stats.
https://i.gyazo.com/07eb9b2ae5b85ab7...654b689b53.png
Notice what happens when I add 1000 attack power out of nowhere -
https://i.gyazo.com/36552bc7f289bfc4...0995838a66.png
ARP suddenly almost evens out with AGI.
But since we do not have that extra attack power, we cannot just blindly 'dive' for ARP, so to speak. This is why I believe some of your gear choices are wrong. For example, your necklace should be replaced by http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45517. Crit/Haste is not the best itemization for a hunter but the sheer amount of extra stats generated by the increased item level makes it a winner. In the same way, you choose to neglect the http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45570 in favour of a gun that provides ARP. The sheer amount of DPS lost due to the item level downgrade is not made up by the increased gain of ARP.
Also.. regarding the 4 set bonus - I have run the maths behind using it and not using it, and using the items I've linked (I'm using both Shandara's Spreadsheet as well as Rawr) makes you come out ahead in DPS. I estimate the set bonus to be worth somewhere around 150 - 250 (at its best) attack power. This is not enough to justify dropping other, much better pieces.
Either way, I would like to end by giving you a +1 for writing this post. It looks to me as if your gear choices are well thought out, and you put the entire thing together in a nice, user-friendly way while also explaining your picks. I do not agree with this item list personally (as it seems like it is mathematically inferior), but I think in reality you cannot prove everything using a pen and paper, so to speak. So with that in mind, it's hard to tell what works better without trying it first. To each their own, I guess :)Edited: April 27, 2016
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Member
Hey purepownage.
Looking at your graph, you are in fact right, I overestimated the value of ARP. But I've some things to say about it.
First of all, your first graph, have you made it while unbuffed? With self buffs I assume. If it's without external buffs then the second graph should be closer to reality. Although even then, I have valued ARP even more than agility so yeah..
I equipped your BiS gear, and I see I have only 5% hit. Which means that I'd need to either add a third point to Focused Aim (which you didn't), be a Draenei (which I'm not) or rely on a Draenei (a lot of times this is a problem at least in our raids).
About your spec, I personally very much like Rapid Recuperation, as it gives me the possibility to never have to switch to Aspect of the Viper (as I'm also using Crazy Alchemist Potions and reset their CD with FD) on most bossfights, although I haven't tested with 1/2 and I might just still do good with it, but I think 0/2 will **** me up and force me to use AotV.
Therefore my conclusion is, if I can't make sure that I have a Draenei in my group at all times, then I would personally still use the Seed of Budding Carnage over Pendulum of Infinity. Although the Pendulum is definitely much better in terms of damage output.
Gun over Skyforge Crossbow was a mistake, I forgot to put the crossbow in the Hard Mode list.
Regarding the 4 set bonus, I've tested it a little, and it is definitely not worth it if you're still keeping Arcane Shot in your rotation, which I will because looking at your graphs I realized it would be better to gem for Agility instead of ARP, therefore I will definitely not have enough ARP to remove AS from rotation.
As for without AS, I don't know, it's very much RNG related, sometimes I can have it up for 40 seconds, other times it won't be up for 50 seconds, so I suppose I should look at math in that case, which you did, and like you said it's not worth it. Although I don't know if you've considered Rapid Fire/Heroism/Potion of Speed etc while doing it, which does matter a bit.
Oh and about Dark Matter, honestly I don't know what to say here, compared to DMC, it does have better stats but DMC also lasts 5 seconds longer. I will test it later.
Anyway my list does definitely need some tweaking, which I will do a bit later.
You've helped greatly man, thank you very m
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Dargenslayer
Hey Skadi, thanks for the reply. To adress some of your points:
It was made using a full raid buff setup, including consumables and such. Basically any given state you would be in a serious raid enviroment. The reason why is because the majority of the time in a raid I will spend with the right buffs, and flasks and so forth. You get it :P The second graph uses the same setup, but just me modifying an item to add an 'extra' 1000 attack power that otherwise wouldn't be there.
I definitely made this with Draeneis in mind! If you're not one, then I'm sorry for not considering that. The reason I am not doing so is because I assume people gear as if they are a Draenei. You should do too, and keep an hit item nearby (or a secondary spec) in case if you cannot get that extra Draenei hit. It's a bit outside of the comfort zone, which I can understand, but the idea is that you want to push your damage to its limits through the way you setup your character. Not acknowledging the 1% hit you get from a Draenei fails to do so.
I play with this spec at the moment, and can tell you that it is possible. You just have to learn when and how to chain your mana potions. I believe that FD shouldn't reset potion cooldowns though, so assuming it was working like this then I would definitely be putting points into Rapid Recuperation. As a bonus, always make sure that Judgement of Wisdom is up on the boss, and that you are buffed with the mana-related buffs you can be buffed with. You can also carry with you a http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=36899 if you really want to go to that length. - With that being said, I would be lying if I told you I never use Viper. If you really want to avoid it, I would recommend dropping points from Improved Steady Shot (or Improved Barrage) and place them in Rapid Recuperation, instead of gearing differently to gain extra hit. If your raid composition allows for it, you can even drop Trueshot Aura and have another hunter provide it for you :)
The sweet-spot to drop Arcane Shot from your rotation is somewhere between 350 - 400 armor pen. Using my gear setup you will be able to hit this sweet spot (you should be at 434 rating not averaging out the Mjolnir Runestone proc), but due to the ****ty itemization of T8 I can imagine that going for the 4-set bonus will make you fall below the required amount of rating. I haven't done the math or looked into it in any particular way, so I can't say I know anything for sure, but perhaps this is the underlying reason behind the 4-set bonus not being superior to a setup without it.
My ingame name is Aedir - I'm not sure if you have seen me around or not, but if you wish to talk to me ingame and discuss things further, feel free to do so. I'm always open to hunter theorycrafting, it's one of the few things I really enjoy with this game. Take care! :)Edited: April 28, 2016
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Member
Hey Aedir!
You're right about the Draenei thing, I will edit my list to consider the 1% hit from it too, and personally will group up with a Draenei. Horde people only have the option to put a third point into Focused Aim, though.
Hmm, about mana, well I might actually survive with 0/2 too in Ulduar, I'll have to test it. Otherwise, I think the best option for me personally would be to drop Trueshot Aura, as we always have at least 2 hunters up in raid.
As for your name, it does sound familiar, anyway it would be nice to chat with you sometime :)
Huge thanks for your wisdom man!
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Member
I'd personally advise against dropping that point in TSA under any circumstance. If the only Hunter that provides it in the raid DC's or dies (and it's not uncommon to just barely clinch a progression kill with lots of people in your raid dead), your entire raid is setback by the loss of 10% AP all because you got dangerously overzealous about trying to min-max.
While I'm posting here I'll also take the time to stress that purepownage's point above about Arp not magically outperforming Agi past a certain amount of Arp could not be more correct. Arp and Agi don't exist in a vacuum, and there's really a plethora of other factors you should be taking into account. On top of Arp's self-amplifying nature, you should also consider that its increase in DPS is entirely multiplicative in nature, whereas Agi, since it provides AP, has additive components. This means a lower level of gear - which would translate to a lower baseline DPS level - would be less favored by Arp, because that same damage multiplier (you can, in fact, accurately assign an exact % figure that your amountt of Arp increases your physical damage by) is increasing your DPS by a lower amount.Edited: April 29, 2016
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Dargenslayer
No problem Skadi :) I actually didn't consider the Horde side either, haha... My bad! I would only assume that if you cannot get Draenei hit you should place an extra point in Focused Aim. I haven't done the math to check if this is beneficial from a mathematical perspective or if you should swap some gear pieces. I would advice any horde hunter to do this before following my item list.
I have to agree on the TSA point. But ideally, you should be able to drop it. If you have three hunters in your raid setup and two of them has it, and you don't get unlucky with connections and play properly, you should be able to drop that point... but I honestly still agree that it's too much of a risk to be worth it in many cases. I think individual players should make their own call here, at the very least. But for a risk-free enviroment, I would advice against dropping the talent.
As for the ARP segment.. couldn't be any more correct. As I would expect from you, of course. :)
I would also like to add that I am glad we could keep the discussion as civil as it has been. I didn't come here to prove you wrong Skadi, but rather to challenge a different set of ideas - once you start doing that you can figure out if you are in the wrong or in the right, and that is valuable to me as I want to learn more about the hunter class. Take care, people! :)
I would also like to thank you, Skadi, for the normal mode list. I was too lazy to make one myself, but I would be lying if I said this won't be useful for me. It'll definitely come in handy for when my guild progresses through Ulduar, especially since a lot of hardmodes are either unavailable atm due to poor scripting or simple gear limitations.
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Member
Hmm about TSA I think we should definitely have it specced when doing progression raids, but during farm we can keep a second spec without it and use it if there's 2 other hunters with it in the raid.
And Aedir, reading your posts I can definitely see that you are thinking outside the box. Theorycrafting and having math to back it up, which is really nice. Personally I never bothered with the math but now I know that I should, as it can definitely shed some light on things, and is better than simply practicing something as it pretty much eliminates the RNG element.
It was really nice to talk to you man, thank you again :)
Anyways, OP edited!
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Member
Why http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45536 over http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45143 ? You lose a bunch of AP and mana, gaining 20 crit and 6 arp.
Edited: April 30, 2016
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Member
Hey.
You lose 59 Intellect, right. But you get:
+6 AP
+15 Agility (that's equal to a bit more than 35 AP)
+20 Crit (that's equal to around 40 ap)
+6 ARP
And a yellow socket too (16 agi, worth like 40 AP)
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Banned
Hey aspirine1024 i agree your ****ing BIS i calculated same ! It's very cool this game have good players ;)
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Member
Not only 59 Intellect, its 59 AP as well with Careful Aim talent. So i would say that those items are pretty equal.
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Dargenslayer
I'll be counting with modifiers here (ergo 14% for agi and int, and 10% for AP). If the value is higher than .5 I will round upwards, as the game does so in my experience.
So.. we have
128 agi / 111 agi
0 int / 67 int
167 AP / 234 AP (calculating the intellects attack power here)
78 crit / 58 crit
66 ARP / 60 ARP
+ socket bonuses
55 agi / 36 agi
So all in all we're looking at these stats
If you use - http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45536
+36 agi
-67 int
-67 AP
+20 crit
+6 ARP
And if you use http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45143 it is the opposite. Bringing up rawr quickly, and assuming that you are fully raid buffed (including consumables) and engaging a 300 second long boss fight, Agility carries roughly between 2.7 - 2.9 times the value of AP. This means that effectively you could count the +36 agility converted to AP as 36x2.8=100,8 ~109 AP. Which means that you can take the Agility out of the equation and have a stat comparison that looks like this:
-67 int
+42 AP
+20 crit
+6 ARP
Even if we use the much more safe value of 1 agi = 2.1 AP, you'd have 36x2.1=75,6~76, which means you'd be looking at a +9 AP. The extra 1005 mana may be tempting, but in terms of DPS will carry an exact value of 0 unless you run out of mana, which you can avoid if you play the class correctly.
And this is why those two legs are not pretty equal, and why for that matter it is also important to calculate with a standard set of raid buffs + talents in mind.Edited: May 1, 2016
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Member
Yea of course, I've considered that. Anyway see post above mine.
By the way Aedir, can you give me a Rawr that works for Hunters? All the ones that I found crash when you select Hunter for some reason :S
Edit: Nevermind, it does seem to work for Hunter, just takes like 20 minutes to load that's all.Edited: May 1, 2016
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Dargenslayer
http://www30.zippyshare.com/v/j12fEKGR/file.html <- This is the version I'm using, it is the latest one before the Cata version released (2.23). Keep in mind though (and maybe this is just for me) that it seems to crash as soon as you put pets into the equation and start optimizing. It should remain as a cat as a default select pet. Let it stay there, don't touch talents, pet rotation or pet buffs and it should be fine. However, because of this I recommend that you use Shandara's Spreadsheet instead. But if pet works fine for you in Rawr, please do feel free to keep on using it.
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