WotLK Libram of Valiance as BiS

[magaginho]

Nobody was talking about tanking.

I was sure that I've read some tank commentaries above. Oh well - Another topic for a possible discussion.

[Beanlord]

And what makes you a good tank is exactly this: The perfect positioning and capability of reading the raid development as it is. I've never used PoJ as a Protection Paladin and I've always found myself in the right spot in the right timing. Tanking "reflexes" are a thing that people overlook. Raid vision and capability to properly analyze a raid are actually a thing. If someone messes up (example: Placement of a bad Defile) you have time to get out of it and place yourself in a better position. Just because you're going to spare an extra second that means you're going to be the game turner right there? No. Specially because, most likely, you'll have other people bouncing in that same Defile and compromising the raid with those actions.
If other classes are able to do the fights properly without movement speed increases why do you have to be "special"?

If you really don't feel secure about your positioning - Please be my guest and use those talents. If you really know what you're doing and if you're really an experienced tank you shouldn't need such a thing.

As Qtinz said, we aint talking about tanking. But I'll entertain you.

I feel more than secure with my tanking (how to position, when to use cooldowns, libram and trinket switching depending on the fight, speccing properly). However just because others can do it (their class allows them and they're better at it) doesn't mean we shouldn't take advantage of 15% movement speed regardless of whether or not we're a tank/dps. It will certainly make our lives easier. And considering the alternative talents (imp. Gbom/Conviction/Seals of the pure/Reckoning/Judgements of the just) I see absolutely nothing better than PoJ in a raid environment (discounting 10 mans where there's a possible lack of dks/paladins).

P.S. The alternatives mentioned were from a tank's PoV.

[magaginho]

As Qtinz said, we aint talking about tanking. But I'll entertain you.

I feel more than secure with my tanking (how to position, when to use cooldowns, libram and trinket switching depending on the fight, speccing properly). However just because others can do it (their class allows them and they're better at it) doesn't mean we shouldn't take advantage of 15% movement speed regardless of whether or not we're a tank/dps. It will certainly make our lives easier. And considering the alternative talents (imp. Gbom/Conviction/Seals of the pure/Reckoning/Judgements of the just) I see absolutely nothing better than PoJ in a raid environment (discounting 10 mans where there's a possible lack of dks/paladins).

Personally, as I stated, I find it a waste since I'm able to place myself in proper positions and read what the MT/OT (depending on the role that I'm doing) is going to do in every single fight which translates in a proper response from my part. In most fights I don't see that movement speed increase being a game breaker - Considering that it will make our lives easier can be neglected since you should react as soon as you know what's about to happen, as an example, a Defile. Considering that, as a tank, you command the raid position you should work around that in order to avoid "stressful" situations. The faster you react, the faster the raid reacts. Unless you're talking about pugs. Those, usually, never react.

I rather have those two points applied in Seals of the Pure or in Vindication right now. Seals of the Pure for a more offensive build, Vindication for a defensive build. However as I said;

If you really don't feel secure about your positioning - Please be my guest and use those talents. If you really know what you're doing and if you're really an experienced tank you shouldn't need such a thing.

But I would advice people to do exactly the opposite and train their positioning without that talent. I spent hours soloing Violet Hold in order to generate certain reflexes/reactions.

[Qtinz]

Personally, as I stated, I find it a waste since I'm able to place myself in proper positions and read what the MT/OT (depending on the role that I'm doing) is going to do in every single fight which translates in a proper response from my part. In most fights I don't see that movement speed increase being a game breaker - Considering that it will make our lives easier can be neglected since you should react as soon as you know what's about to happen, as an example, a Defile. Considering that, as a tank, you command the raid position you should work around that in order to avoid "stressful" situations. The faster you react, the faster the raid reacts. Unless you're talking about pugs. Those, usually, never react.

I rather have those two points applied in Seals of the Pure or in Vindication right now. Seals of the Pure for a more offensive build, Vindication for a defensive build. However as I said;

If you really don't feel secure about your positioning - Please be my guest and use those talents. If you really know what you're doing and if you're really an experienced tank you shouldn't need such a thing.

But I would advice people to do exactly the opposite and train their positioning without that talent. I spent hours soloing Violet Hold in order to generate certain reflexes/reactions.

You are completely missing the point. The value of the talent, especially as tank, is the ability to react to situations you cannot predict. Ofc. you can train in VH, but this has absolutely no impact on your capability to react to stuff that shouldn't happen.

[magaginho]

You are completely missing the point. The value of the talent, especially as tank, is the ability to react to situations you cannot predict.

Can you please elaborate a proper situation that you cannot predict after 6 years of this content?

[Qtinz]

Can you please elaborate a proper situation that you cannot predict after 6 years of this content?

Anything that is based on failure of certain players? Your MT/OT can die due to lag, sleeping healers, bugs.

[magaginho]

Anything that is based on failure of certain players? Your MT/OT can die due to lag, sleeping healers, bugs.

Sleeping healers won't be justified with a movement speed increase.
Bugs is something that you can counter by studying how they happen and placing yourself properly.
Failure of certain players (example of a defile bad placement) means that it's not only you moving but the whole group. The defile drop happens somewhere around 1.5 / 2 seconds after the target selection so you should be moving as soon as the tooltip pops. Reaction/reflexes at it's finest.

[Qtinz]

Sleeping healers won't be justified with a movement speed increase.
Bugs is something that you can counter by studying how they happen and placing yourself properly.
Failure of certain players (example of a defile bad placement) means that it's not only you moving but the whole group. The defile drop happens somewhere around 1.5 / 2 seconds after the target selection so you should be moving as soon as the tooltip pops. Reaction/reflexes at it's finest.

Have you been raiding any HC ICC lately? With working Adds on LDW the fight is a total mess in many situations. And the distance you have to travel through the room to collect loose adds can be quite significant. Also PP is much easier the faster you are. Rotface is bugged like hell and there is a high possibility you have to help out on Oozes even as MT as they don't stack.The kele tank can die so easily with the nucleus attacking it's latest attacker and on HC there is again a high chance you are not even close to the Kele tank. Sindy as a whole is totally different than it was before and any movement speed you have will help you and especially your healers to survive.

And going on to LK: Who cares about defile? Movement speed on a tank will help you to soak. It helps to move LK faster and reduces the time you have to move in total.

[Windarrow]

Neither do I. Being disarmed ain't the point of the talent. Running away from fires and the like is only a slight bonus to survivability. The real reason why you pick it up is because most fights involve some kind of movement. To be more specific, movement where you're not in melee range of the boss (after fear on BQL, killing adds on LDW or being MC'ed there, PP basically the entire ****ing fight, BPC while changing targets, a very large portion of LK [NP, defiles, chaning from val'kyr to lk or to another val'kyr], sindra tomb movements, halion debuff dispels).

I'm neglecting GSB and VDW fights completely. The switches you're surely going to make on the other fights will have a big impact on your dps. Going faster = less downtime on the boss.

P.S. Even if you skip both PoJ and SoC the only other talent choices you have will be:
A) Divinity
B) Divine Intellect
C) Vindication (which can be taken either way, w/o gimping yourself with no movementspeed bonus)

Thanks, you saved me some time.

Downtime on boss is the key here. Obviously there's a pvp component to the talent, but getting places faster and in range of targets to dps as melee is key to your overall output in any given encounter. A simple example that assumes the non-existence of most interfering variables is: if it takes you 10 seconds to get to a priority target, PoJ lets you get there 1.5 seconds faster, which is basically an extra spell. Why have you seen people with identical GS outdpsing one another? The answer is min-maxing and micro.

Unless you were comparing dummy dps, for which I stand defeated if that is the case.

[magaginho]

Have you been raiding any HC ICC lately? With working Adds on LDW the fight is a total mess in many situations. And the distance you have to travel through the room to collect loose adds can be quite significant. Also PP is much easier the faster you are. Rotface is bugged like hell and there is a high possibility you have to help out on Oozes even as MT as they don't stack.The kele tank can die so easily with the nucleus attacking it's latest attacker and on HC there is again a high chance you are not even close to the Kele tank. Sindy as a whole is totally different than it was before and any movement speed you have will help you and especially your healers to survive.

And going on to LK: Who cares about defile? Movement speed on a tank will help you to soak. It helps to move LK faster and reduces the time you have to move in total.

1) You know where the adds spawn in LDW. Place yourself and be ready for them. It was the same thing in Retail and Tanks were more than able to handle them in a matter of a second.
2) PP doesn't require you to be fast just requires you to know when to move. If you're one of those tanks that backpedals then yeah - You're screwed. Learn to strife and you'll be more than fine.
3) Oozes are bugged like you stated and well but that still doesn't justify that you need a % increase for your movement since you can still take control of the room really quick since you're always in the center or near the center as a MT.
4) Sindy requires movement speed? Hand of Freedom is a thing. Use it in order to counter the slow that might be concerning you.
5) Soaking on LK? Slow the Vile Spirits with your different Abilities (Ex: Avenger's Shield) or have a Priest slowing them (as they should anyway - Retail wise strategy) and you're able to get them all really quick.

The point here drops into two possible options;

A) You feel comfortable enough with your tanking and you're in the top of you gaming when raiding end-game content and you know how to counter specific situations with different abilities. This is why you have so many spells as a Paladin in your spellbook.

B) You don't feel comfortable and you need the movement speed increase.

[Qtinz]

1) You know where the adds spawn in LDW. Place yourself and be ready for them. It was the same thing in Retail and Tanks were more than able to handle them in a matter of a second.
2) PP doesn't require you to be fast just requires you to know when to move. If you're one of those tanks that backpedals then yeah - You're screwed. Learn to strife and you'll be more than fine.
3) Oozes are bugged like you stated and well but that still doesn't justify that you need a % increase for your movement since you can still take control of the room really quick since you're always in the center or near the center as a MT.
4) Sindy requires movement speed? Hand of Freedom is a thing. Use it in order to counter the slow that might be concerning you.
5) Soaking on LK? Slow the Vile Spirits with your different Abilities (Ex: Avenger's Shield) or have a Priest slowing them (as they should anyway - Retail wise strategy) and you're able to get them all really quick.

1) By the end of Phase1 there is a high chance you have to deal with adds while the next wave is spawning. With lower/slacking DPS you will definetly have to deal with Reanimated Fanatics. If you really think that it's up to you to control this situation I don't know what to say.
2) Yeah, espcecially in transition phases where you might wanna absorb some damage...
3) Ever seen people get rekt by Oozes in less then 1s? Any increase can make the difference.
4) I don't get your point!? The tombs have a LoS part which makes healing a lot harder. The healers have to expose themselves to MB and the less time you need on a tank swap the better it is. Period.
5) Most of the time you won't be able to get all, you have to get as many as possible.

And you know, most of your arguments have a point I can understand, in some way at least, but then again I'm asking myself: What exactly are you loosing by taking a talent that's a survivability increase? Your choices are

SotP - Wtf?
Vindication - Your 25man setup should cover this. And even if it isn't covered you can still take it with the sacrifice of a little bit of crit. And by your own arguments you shouldn't be in need of this threat as a paladin anyways.

A) You feel comfortable enough with your tanking and you're in the top of you gaming when raiding end-game content and you know how to counter specific situations with different abilities. This is why you have so many spells as a Paladin in your spellbook.

Your personal feeling isn't part of any objective component. Your personal preference might be different, but you are wrong in a global scope. Just read up on Tuskarr's Vitality to get the whole benefit of movement speed increasing effects. Those 8% have been mandatory to almost everyone back in retail if they haven't had a similar increase.

If your class doesn't have run speed baked into its talent, then the enchant is, hands down, the best possible raiding enchant where a meta-gem option isn't available (and it mostly isn't). You're moving up to the next pull 8% faster, re-positioning AE 8% faster, and back in action 8% faster. Whatever stat penalty you pay is made back in the massive net increase in raid efficiency.

[Lynea]

And you know, most of your arguments have a point I can understand, in some way at least, but then again I'm asking myself: What exactly are you loosing by taking a talent that's a survivability increase? Your choices are

Vindication - Your 25man setup should cover this. And even if it isn't covered you can still take it with the sacrifice of a little bit of crit. And by your own arguments you shouldn't be in need of this threat as a paladin anyways.

Do you even read what you type? Your threat should be covered just as much, if not more-so, than the AP debuff on the boss, by a 25-man raid.

Your personal feeling isn't part of any objective component. Your personal preference might be different, but you are wrong in a global scope.

Him being "wrong" is your opinion, and thus, just as relevant as what he has said.

Just read up on Tuskarr's Vitality to get the whole benefit of movement speed increasing effects. Those 8% have been mandatory to almost everyone back in retail if they haven't had a similar increase.

Not at all. And as for your quote, it's largely irrelevant if the person in question is intimate enough with the encounter to be prepared for all of it.

[Lynea]

I was talking about ret primarily though I might spec prot down the line, sorry should have specified

Fair enough. Sorry to have gone off in that direction then.

[Qtinz]

Do you even read what you type? Your threat should be covered just as much, if not more-so, than the AP debuff on the boss, by a 25-man raid.

Since when is PoJ a threat talent? The argument was that he'd take Vindication over PoJ and my statement was just to clarify a way of having both. Enlighten me where I stated that threat would be an issue or wouldn't be covered.

Not at all. And as for your quote, it's largely irrelevant if the person in question is intimate enough with the encounter to be prepared for all of it.

You cannot be prepared for everything. The example always been LK. Tanks die at LK. With every guild I did LOD, no matter if we farmed it or were progressing towards the kill, we had tries with a dead MT during the beginning of P2, during P2 or even, and this being the most dangerous one, in the middle of P3 while the OT is out for soaks. This just happens. Or maybe this doesn't happen to you and your guild, in this case I'd be glad to raid with you for the rest of my life.

[Beanlord]

Personally, as I stated, I find it a waste since I'm able to place myself in proper positions and read what the MT/OT (depending on the role that I'm doing) is going to do in every single fight which translates in a proper response from my part. In most fights I don't see that movement speed increase being a game breaker - Considering that it will make our lives easier can be neglected since you should react as soon as you know what's about to happen, as an example, a Defile. Unless you're talking about pugs. Those, usually, never react.

I rather have those two points applied in Seals of the Pure or in Vindication right now. Seals of the Pure for a more offensive build, Vindication for a defensive build. However as I said;

Ok you can position yourself, I'm very glad you can. Having tanked a very large amount of w/e boss from ICC/rs I can position myself well too. This doesn't have as big of an impact as you might think when discussing the talent though.

Considering that, as a tank, you command the raid position you should work around that in order to avoid "stressful" situations. The faster you react, the faster the raid reacts.

Exactly. Moving faster, helps you do this better.

I rather have those two points applied in Seals of the Pure or in Vindication right now. Seals of the Pure for a more offensive build, Vindication for a defensive build. However as I said;

About Vindication, ever since Lynea mentioned the talent in another thread, which was actually about tanking, I tried it myself and was pleased to find it was working (previously I had always thought it was bugged).

About Sotp, it's pretty weak when it comes to threat generation. I'd put those 2 points into reckoning if I wanted more threat (assuming crusader has already been taken).

The defile drop happens somewhere around 1.5 / 2 seconds after the target selection so you should be moving as soon as the tooltip pops. Reaction/reflexes at it's finest.

Yeah, extra movement speed helps both you and your raid here.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sZi0tAbuMusIufzxfMobc

This is what I generally use. It's about as defensive as a prot pally spec can get.