WotLK Blood, Frost, Unholy. Gnimo's way of how to DK.

[Gnimo]

http://imgur.com/a/pyUAD

Lets use this one for some calculations...

Im using 2/5 Black Ice, 1/3 Subversion, 3/3 BCB, 5/5 KM and 1/2 CotG. As u saw from the posts i guess...

Now, 173 Obliterates. 3/3 Subversion will be 6% Crit increase. Which will make 10 of my normal hit Obliterates into Crits.
That is arround 90k dmg increase on Obliterate.

Total Shadow/Frost dmg done was arround 2100k. Every point in Black Ice would increase ur total DMG by arround 42k dmg.
When it comes to BCB it did less that 3% (was unlucky i guess) and total of 170k dmg.

Tryed to give u an ingame sight of how things work. If u think u cant look at it this way and that im wrong just use Rifos calculations i guess.



As for BCB, it was bugged before the new core release. Didnt proc as much, didnt do as much DMG, it wasnt worth going for.
Now since its more blizzlike, every point in BCB gives u arround 0.8-1.6% of total DMG increase (depending on ur RNG). There is no other talent that will give u that much DMG gain per talent point (after u take the most important ones ofc).
As for Subversion and threat reduction, 1/3 will be enough for u, especialy for guild raids. Unless u get 10 Obliterate Crits in a row and there is no MD/ToT...
Only place i found myself overagro a tank is VoA where both Tanks and Hunters/Rogues dont know how to use their spells 99% of the time, and only if i get lucky on crits...
Altho since full Strength Build lacks some Crit from gear, there is a posibility that its DPS actualy gets reduced if u go BCB since u rely on Obliterate crit increase from Talents. Im not sure about this since i never tested full Strength itemisation so i might be wrong.



I will most likely update the guide soon since ive came to realisation that sometimes Melee is ur top DMG done thingie (conbined with Necrosis and BCB) so Haste and a bit more Hit is more valuable than trying to get more attack power by any means...
Again, when u are bis and after u cap Hit, Expertise and Armor Penetration it doesnt matter which 1 or 2 items u decide to go/change since RNG will mostly decide the winner.
If u see anything wrong with it before i update it (which will most likely happen next weekend) feel free to show me those mistakes in the comment section below so i dont have to update it again and again... :D
Might aswell add Blood DPS if i get the chance to test it in a raid. Will see... Best of Luck.

Edit:
When RNG gives u some love with Double Taunka proc:
http://imgur.com/a/w3k3E

[trm90]

Blood dps with the current state of drw is just not worth it, before the new core when drw was working was in a much better state for blood.

[Jarjkeqt]

I did not have the time yet to compose an actual elaborated message so I hope this will do.

Subversion is the weakest talent out of the bunch, which includes KM, BI & BCB.
The threat modifier shouldn't even be an argument, in a decent 25m guild raid there's a lot of utility to cover threat.
The whole discussion here is basically about end-game content so PUGs should be left out of the equation.

Blood Presence provides a flat 20% threat reduction with no talents whatsoever fyi.

In addition, the crit isn't that magnificent as you make it sound. Obliterate has 17% base crit chance from our talents, with 30-35% crit a fdk has with decent to end-game gear obli gets all the way up to 50-55% crit.

Don't forget stockpiling crit becomes less and less beneficial.

[Beanlord]

Subversion is the weakest talent out of the bunch, which includes KM, BI & BCB.

According to the sim both BCB and Subversion are more valuable than KM and BI.

[Jarjkeqt]

According to the sim both BCB and Subversion are more valuable than KM and BI.

I wrote a response but lucky me my smartphone's timeout duration ****ed me real good.

Anyway I'll be as straightforward as I can; First and foremost take it into consideration that 90% of the community are misusing Kahorie's sim, as a result the information they're being given is inaccurate.

Now to the case at hand, obviously I was addressing a situation where you'd end up having 3/3 in Subversion, this is where the talent becomes weaker.
The more crit you have the less it becomes beneficial, hence a 9% increase to Obliterate's critical chance isn't as marvelous as you people make it sound. The threat reduction is nothing but nice, I have nothing to say to people who tune into this talent specifically for the threat reduction, it's just plain stupid.

When it comes to single-target ONLY — Subversion is more beneficial for arpen fdks, no doubt. But this is not the case, if I could readjust and optimize my gear before any boss encounter I would be the happiest Death Knight on the planet, but sorry to disappoint you unless you have every item at least twice that's nearly impossible.

As a part of Kahorie's development team I can guarantee you that Kahorie's tool does not take into consideration individual skill. It does not calculate skillful usage of KM procs which boost up the value of BI, which your simulations are missing.

Remember that simulations can only reflect encounters where you tunnel-vision a Patchwerk type of boss, Blood Queen was also added at latest versions but I don't recommend using it in simulations. We've built a dozen more scenario xmls which weren't released since you couldn't depend on them to reflect accurate data.

The whole point of this discussion as far as I understood is to figure out how to squeeze the most out of your FDK's gear setup and talent, which should be always adjusted for every boss encounter and not just for single-target only encounters.

[DarkenedHue]

As a part of Kahorie's development team I can guarantee you that Kahorie's tool does not take into consideration individual skill. It does not calculate skillful usage of KM procs which boost up the value of BI, which your simulations are missing.

Subversion is worth a little under 1% DPS per talent point on a properly arp-capped, near-BiS FDK. BCB just a little over that. This is a figure you can work out through quick napkin math. For Black Ice to match it point-for-point, your non-physical damage would have to near half of your total damage.

[Gnimo]

Well since almost noone would ever be able to change gear and set it for each boss they face (atleast i wont be, nor do i want to tryhard that much) i would like to ask one question to Jarjkeqt and that is: When it comes to itemisation and talents which one is the best for encounter such as Lich King 25m HC? And ofc why?

And also if u could answer if going 2 agility items (Toskz and Aldrianas) is better or worse than going full Strength itemisation as Verminslayer linked.

Thanks everyone for participating in this discussion, got some nice and new ideas out of it which i will most likely put in another updated version of FDK UDK BDK after i test them in raids ofc.
Best of luck and keep going. :D

[Jarjkeqt]

Subversion is worth a little under 1% DPS per talent point on a properly arp-capped, near-BiS FDK. BCB just a little over that. This is a figure you can work out through quick napkin math. For Black Ice to match it point-for-point, your non-physical damage would have to near half of your total damage.

And yet again individual skill comes to play, if you match up HB with KM procs and have a fully-buffed raid composition where you maximizie the potential of BI and KM you can achieve superior results which no math can work out for you mate.

The whole point of my argument is that on certain encounters BI is slightly more valuable than deeping into Subversion, same fights where arp fdks fall behind str fdks.

I've been on this subject for literally 7 years now, during 3.3.5 on retail me and other DKs had a lot of theorycrafting to do but not enough time to do it in. Achieveing BiS wasn't as simple as buying gear on a pay2win realm, and those who managed to worked it out with us.

Personally I sat down with Paragon's DKs such as zYN and Nize among other dozen of Death Knights to work this through only to come with the conclusion hat eventually it all comes down to skill and how specifically you use your character in a boss encounter.

Having 1 point in Subversion is worthwhile, but not 3.
There is no concrete answer due to personal skill and how you utilize opportunities when you get them.
Spreadsheets and simulations can only get you as far.

On a personal note, private realms are not bug-free. Which explains why Unholy isn't topping the charts like it should.

[verminslayer]

And yet again individual skill comes to play, if you match up HB with KM procs and have a fully-buffed raid composition where you maximizie the potential of BI and KM you can achieve superior results which no math can work out for you mate.

The whole point of my argument is that on certain encounters BI is slightly more valuable than deeping into Subversion, same fights where arp fdks fall behind str fdks.

I've been on this subject for literally 7 years now, during 3.3.5 on retail me and other DKs had a lot of theorycrafting to do but not enough time to do it in. Achieveing BiS wasn't as simple as buying gear on a pay2win realm, and those who managed to worked it out with us.

Personally I sat down with Paragon's DKs such as zYN and Nize among other dozen of Death Knights to work this through only to come with the conclusion hat eventually it all comes down to skill and how specifically you use your character in a boss encounter.

Having 1 point in Subversion is worthwhile, but not 3.
There is no concrete answer due to personal skill and how you utilize opportunities when you get them.
Spreadsheets and simulations can only get you as far.

On a personal note, private realms are not bug-free. Which explains why Unholy isn't topping the charts like it should.

im not sure if you actually played this server.

A 100% arp dk will never fall behind a non-capped arp dk who gems full str in any fight, unless the arp dk is complete dog****.

ITT we are talking about BIS dk's on icecrown not retail Dk's who only gemmed str and thought it was superior or maybe it was(on retail). how ever we are not playing retail and Fdk's still arent 100% retail-like here.

I am just trying to wrap my head around what can i drop to put points for bcb, for me dropping subversion is not a choice.
9% crit is too big to give up, if i did 100 obliterates with an average of 18k(in icc with buff) damage per 1 crit, that is 162k dmg from just 9 crits, that equates to 54k+dmg per 1 point, plus additional damage from blood strike crits which will push it to closer to almost 60k.

[Bensten]

9% crit is too big to give up, if i did 100 obliterates with an average of 18k(in icc with buff) damage per 1 crit, that is 162k dmg from just 9 crits, that equates to 54k+dmg per 1 point, plus additional damage from blood strike crits which will push it to closer to almost 60k.

You forgot to deduct the avg. damage of a non-crit Obliterate as you'd still be getting those even w/o Subversion. Same goes for Blood Strike.

[Gnimo]

From the spec u use: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jcZG0exIRczf0cuzAofM0hx
(i rly dont like the spec in the first place, especialy the 3/5 KM part, but im just trying to give suggestion what can help u with ur choice)
u can remove 1 point from CoTG or from BI in order to get atleast 1/3 BCB. On top of that u can also remove 1 point in Subversion and go:
2/3 Subversion , 2/3 Blood Caked Blade.

Using ur own DPS link from LK: http://imgur.com/a/2zDKW where u did arround 3000k Shadow/Frost damage, every point in Black Ice is arround 60k dmg increase on total dmg done. Thats arround 0.8% of ur total dmg done. BCB is 0.8-1.2 if u put 1/3 and for that to happen all u have to do is auto attack the target.
U dont need to follow a sertain rotation that will deal less DPS if u **** it up duo to some bad RNG, aslong as u keep the 20% haste buff on u, u are just fine. Thats the main power of BCB. Just keep auto attacking and its gona happen.
If u gota swap targets and do less Obliterates, Subversion loses its value aswell.
And when it comes to Subversion, 3% crit chance is arround 5 Obliterate Crits over Normal Hits, lets say 6 (from 189 hits u did in that LK fight). That is arround 65k combined with Blood Strike. Again, not even 1% of total DMG done.

I will tell u one thing tho, If i was using full Strength Itemisation i would probably go for 2/3 Subversion and 2/3 Blood Caked Blade.


I rly dont think that u didnt read any of the comparison in numbers done by Rifokelt or me when it comes to Subversion VS Blood Caked Blade so i have a question.

Whats the point of u posting here when u will always ignore what anyone says and just push for what u think its the best solution?

Belive me, i also tought that Subversion is superior, and it rly was, BUT, on the old core.
On the curent state of warmane Blood Caked Blade > Subversion.

[Jarjkeqt]

im not sure if you actually played this server.

A 100% arp dk will never fall behind a non-capped arp dk who gems full str in any fight, unless the arp dk is complete dog****.

ITT we are talking about BIS dk's on icecrown not retail Dk's who only gemmed str and thought it was superior or maybe it was(on retail). how ever we are not playing retail and Fdk's still arent 100% retail-like here.

I am just trying to wrap my head around what can i drop to put points for bcb, for me dropping subversion is not a choice.
9% crit is too big to give up, if i did 100 obliterates with an average of 18k(in icc with buff) damage per 1 crit, that is 162k dmg from just 9 crits, that equates to 54k+dmg per 1 point, plus additional damage from blood strike crits which will push it to closer to almost 60k.

An ARP DK should always fall behind a STR FDK in an encounter where's too much movement, when it comes to a blizzlike environment.

Although this realm is not even close to blizzlike and most of you don't even realise how bugged Scourge Strike is for an instance, and the sad part is that they will absolutely never find a solution to it because the math behind it was too complicated.
The Shadow strike should hit like if the initial attack ignored armor, there're much more rules to it and thus why most of what you think is normal isn't.

Unholy should be topping the charts in 3.3.5 and is the strongest spec DKs had during 3.3.5, since the beginning of this expansion Unholy was and still is the most valuable spec for any raid.
It provides great DPS with great utilities that his counterparts cann't supply.
Unholy ruled with an iron fist until brief moments where Blood climbed up the ladder and Frost 2h for a little while but came ICC and Unholy was top again.

Blizzard had to ship in MAJOR buffs for Frost since it was garbage, they buffed Nerves of Cold Steel and made Endless Winter give 4% Strength which it didn't before.
Hence why in most private servers (depends on bugs) Frost is the most powerful spec, since you don't have to know your **** to do great DPS.
I've seen a lot of FDKs do decent DPS that any raid leader will appreciate without even executing a 3rd Obliterate with Death Runes.


This realm has many problems and Frost Strike is just an example of it, it was too powerful in any 3.3.5 a couple of years ago and they nerfed the **** out of it, and as far as I'm seeing in this forums and in the bugtracker they nerfed it too much. To a point where Ebon Plaguebringer doesn't increase it's damage, and it should.

And for the discussion at hand, 3/3 points in Subversion mate is an overkill, BCB provides superior DPS. Not to mention that KM is also superior than BI.

With all due respect, up until now most people here who have addressed me or simply provided a statement made sense, mate most of what you say is completely beyond me. No idea where you get your facts from and your talents makes my eye twitch.

[verminslayer]

An ARP DK should always fall behind a STR FDK in an encounter where's too much movement, when it comes to a blizzlike environment.

Although this realm is not even close to blizzlike and most of you don't even realise how bugged Scourge Strike is for an instance, and the sad part is that they will absolutely never find a solution to it because the math behind it was too complicated.
The Shadow strike should hit like if the initial attack ignored armor, there're much more rules to it and thus why most of what you think is normal isn't.

Unholy should be topping the charts in 3.3.5 and is the strongest spec DKs had during 3.3.5, since the beginning of this expansion Unholy was and still is the most valuable spec for any raid.
It provides great DPS with great utilities that his counterparts cann't supply.
Unholy ruled with an iron fist until brief moments where Blood climbed up the ladder and Frost 2h for a little while but came ICC and Unholy was top again.

Blizzard had to ship in MAJOR buffs for Frost since it was garbage, they buffed Nerves of Cold Steel and made Endless Winter give 4% Strength which it didn't before.
Hence why in most private servers (depends on bugs) Frost is the most powerful spec, since you don't have to know your **** to do great DPS.
I've seen a lot of FDKs do decent DPS that any raid leader will appreciate without even executing a 3rd Obliterate with Death Runes.


This realm has many problems and Frost Strike is just an example of it, it was too powerful in any 3.3.5 a couple of years ago and they nerfed the **** out of it, and as far as I'm seeing in this forums and in the bugtracker they nerfed it too much. To a point where Ebon Plaguebringer doesn't increase it's damage, and it should.

And for the discussion at hand, 3/3 points in Subversion mate is an overkill, BCB provides superior DPS. Not to mention that KM is also superior than BI.

With all due respect, up until now most people here who have addressed me or simply provided a statement made sense, mate most of what you say is completely beyond me. No idea where you get your facts from and your talents makes my eye twitch.

Please stop using "if its a blizzlike enviroment", you make your arguments weak by saying that, this is a private server and it will never ever be the same as blizz retail. ****ing moron.

Bcb provides a stable increase, it doesn't scale with crit on your obliterates, you can get 70%+ crits easy with obliterates in a raid enviroment and at that moment subversion > bcb.

tell me whats wrong with my talents pls. i can't take your arguments seriously when you write a bunch of bull**** from the past.


@ gnimo

first off, i realized it is impossible to get 3/3 bcb if i go 3/3 subversion, so at the moment i havent been able to raid(maybe 2moro) and test out 1/3 bcb with 3/3 subversion, i dropped a point from black ice and put it in bcb and see if it will be better than my old talents.

reason i won't drop cotg is because my rotation at the start after burst require me to get 1 howling blast proc to get an extra frost strike in(after using horn) and i find it too handy in situations where you are runic power starved.

The reason i have to disagree most of the time is because no one other than 1 dk has beaten me on quite regularly and he does not spec into bcb and runs a full str build.

[Jarjkeqt]

Please stop using "if its a blizzlike enviroment", you make your arguments weak by saying that, this is a private server and it will never ever be the same as blizz retail. ****ing moron.

Bcb provides a stable increase, it doesn't scale with crit on your obliterates, you can get 70%+ crits easy with obliterates in a raid enviroment and at that moment subversion > bcb.

tell me whats wrong with my talents pls. i can't take your arguments seriously when you write a bunch of bull**** from the past.


@ gnimo

first off, i realized it is impossible to get 3/3 bcb if i go 3/3 subversion, so at the moment i havent been able to raid(maybe 2moro) and test out 1/3 bcb with 3/3 subversion, i dropped a point from black ice and put it in bcb and see if it will be better than my old talents.

reason i won't drop cotg is because my rotation at the start after burst require me to get 1 howling blast proc to get an extra frost strike in(after using horn) and i find it too handy in situations where you are runic power starved.

The reason i have to disagree most of the time is because no one other than 1 dk has beaten me on quite regularly and he does not spec into bcb and runs a full str build.

The goal of any private server is to be as close as you can to the source, bugfixes is what makes it a World of Warcraft server.

I have absolutely no clue what work here properly and where isn't. I just recently joined Lordaeron, gave Deathwing a try a year ago and was disgusted.

And quite honestly, arguing with Icecrown players is pointless, it is a pay2win realm. I joined a guild there about a year ago called Royal Bloodline and their top DPS FDK copied his talents from a thread and had zero knowledge about any of his abilities, and that includes soaking dmg with AMS.

And their top Unholy was rolling Disease with Scourge Strike, /facepalm.

And instead of being like "This is warmane!" figure out how you class supposed to be used and work towards fixing it if it isn't.

Oh and I'd like to quote you:

A 100% arp dk will never fall behind a non-capped arp dk who gems full str in any fight, unless the arp dk is complete dog****.

The reason i have to disagree most of the time is because no one other than 1 dk has beaten me on quite regularly and he does not spec into bcb and runs a full str build

So does that mean you're dog****?

[DarkenedHue]

Although this realm is not even close to blizzlike and most of you don't even realise how bugged Scourge Strike is for an instance, and the sad part is that they will absolutely never find a solution to it because the math behind it was too complicated.
The Shadow strike should hit like if the initial attack ignored armor, there're much more rules to it and thus why most of what you think is normal isn't.

This is just categorically and demonstrably false. Scourge Strike is not all that complicated after all - there are already private servers out there (not affiliated to Warmane in anyway) that have thoroughly studied and investigated the quirks around the shadow damage of scourge-strike double-dipping (based off retail logs) and have coded it to near perfection. It's most certainly not meant to cause damage as if the initial scourge strike hit bypassed armor, enough log-digging would lead you to this conclusion.