1. Now this is a great theoretical analysis of the effectiveness of Althor's Abacus, and I'll apologize for any derogatory tone or drama I took with you or Mr. Talarina. There is one thing I want to point out though, which I also pointed out in my very first post in the thread.
    Funny thing is that not only we collected multiple sources out there but we also went in-game to test it on his priest. We only did the work of duplicating results that already exist out there. Like I've mentioned: Static values are static values and those will never change.

    I've managed just fine with Althor's and no innervates on many of the fights, but there will be unforeseen circumstances (stated in my previous posts) in some fights that will make your life much more difficult if you don't have the "crutch" of solace. As you said in your earlier post, the target audience of this guide are those who take it as it is, and will experiment with their class as they go. Would it not be better for them to start with the crutch of a "mana" trinket, and as they become more experienced, transition to a more throughput based "bis" build?
    You should ALWAYS test stuff without "crutches". If we're talking about a BiS perspective, "crutches" are a myth. In case of new players playing this class, I believe that they should start by trying to master their capabilities without "crutches". That's what makes exceptional players and not just another one. However, that's a learning curve that people should decide by themselves; If they want to be really good at what they do, they do it as they should without "crutches" involved. That not only lands more experience and more information about your class but it also makes you develop in a really steady pace.

    Also, in the situation that you're refering, either you trust your raid comp or you don't. Either you have competent raiders or you don't. If that raid team isn't able to support you as they should, it's not your fault. Sinergy is the thing that makes the world go around and a raid is a team effort no matter what people try to do or point out.

  2. I referred to it as theoretical, because thats all it was. I agree with everything you've said about its static values, only disagreeing with its practical potency in current raids. Raids here are often 4-healed, with overgeared healers, very little raid damage isn't healed up instantly, and it's hard to align the althor's proc with those few times the raid damage isn't instantly healed (see PP ooze, Rotface explosion, etc).

    As for your point on crutches, my personal view is that I'd rather a healer slowly increase their throughput safely rather than set up a bis, play without any crutches, and overreach. Being out of mana means you do zero heals. But as you said, it should be decided by the people themselves.

  3. I play Disc, Killing all heroic content. I have some questions.

    About meditation talent, why pick that if you cast something for max 1 sec each penance CD? What does "while casting" means? While on GCD? Anyways I don't really use such "mp5" at all. Replenishment, Shadowfiend, Hymn and smart use of Rupture, mana is not problem, most of the time, even w/o Innervates. Even less thread seems better choice that Meditation.

    Haste, after I cap my GCD.... why do I need more haste? I don't think I do. So I choose as much crit as I can get and some hit rating, those dispel Miss really bother me, sometimes can even be crucial to hit that dispel.

    Grace talent ... Is it even useful? In dungeons.. nice, in 10mans.. maybe if tank healer is really bad and in 25mans its totally wasted points in my opinion.

    I'm open for some insight behind these choices, maybe my choices are not so good and there is some good reasoning.


    P.S.
    Any disc has tried going for shadowfiend cd reduction in shadow? Seemed pretty weirdly good idea, but very situational according to each encounter.

  4. I play Disc, Killing all heroic content. I have some questions.

    About meditation talent, why pick that if you cast something for max 1 sec each penance CD? What does "while casting" means? While on GCD? Anyways I don't really use such "mp5" at all. Replenishment, Shadowfiend, Hymn and smart use of Rupture, mana is not problem, most of the time, even w/o Innervates. Even less thread seems better choice that Meditation.
    Casting includes any spell, including PW:S. Mousing over your Mana Regen, you see how much mp5 you gain while casting and not casting. You must not cast for 5 seconds to enter the non-casting phase. http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=14777 allows you to regen 50% of the non-casting amount at all times, its very convenient, and by far the best choice to advance to the next talent tree tier.

    Haste, after I cap my GCD.... why do I need more haste? I don't think I do. So I choose as much crit as I can get and some hit rating, those dispel Miss really bother me, sometimes can even be crucial to hit that dispel.
    This is why there are two builds. Taking more haste improves the casting time of http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=52985, as well as any other spells you might cast such as http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=48071, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=48063, and http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=64843. Also any spells not under the effect of http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=59891.

    The other build focuses on maximizing spellpower and crit, as you mentioned you are doing. I wouldn't advise hit, as there are very few scenarios you need to hit a mass dispel on enemies outside of PvP.

    Grace talent ... Is it even useful? In dungeons.. nice, in 10mans.. maybe if tank healer is really bad and in 25mans its totally wasted points in my opinion.
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=47517 Is a great spell to put on the tanks, even in 25 mans, and can be maintained through simply casting penance them. More often than not your Penance will be used on the tank, for the heal, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=47517, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=15363, and chance for http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=47515. Keeping Grace on the tanks allows your subsequent heals to be more powerful, which in turn, can amplify Divine Aegis as well.

    Any disc has tried going for shadowfiend cd reduction in shadow? Seemed pretty weirdly good idea, but very situational according to each encounter.
    You have to drop way too many beneficial talents and pick up too many useless Shadow talents to reach it, it's definitely not worth it.

  5. I referred to it as theoretical, because thats all it was. I agree with everything you've said about its static values, only disagreeing with its practical potency in current raids. Raids here are often 4-healed, with overgeared healers, very little raid damage isn't healed up instantly, and it's hard to align the althor's proc with those few times the raid damage isn't instantly healed (see PP ooze, Rotface explosion, etc).
    After reading this I've realized that I'm discussing with just another random private server player. Theory has been applied and all you can come back with is with the fact that everyone overgears the content anyway. You're just making my point even more solid when it comes to needing mp5 while raiding. You had my attention, I gave you the facts and all you're doing is sitting there trying to sound smart when you really can't counter static numbers and static results.

    I'm so glad that I've left this place. Take the last word, it's as worth as a penny for all I care. Specially in a place filled with idiocy and after this answer I'm forced to include you in the pack.
    Edited: January 1, 2017

  6. @harthoran
    For reason it seems to me that you're neglecting the smart heal part of the trinket, for w/e reasons. For once I do agree with magaginho. Static numbers and static results they are as they're. And since the trinket apparently works as it should, we can even look at retail healing logs. You still see ppl using abacus at 30% ICC buff (with near bis players) and 5-6 heals.
    Even tho the heal might look so small in %. That small % might always save a life in some way.

  7. I referred to it as theoretical, because thats all it was. I agree with everything you've said about its static values, only disagreeing with its practical potency in current raids.
    Why disregard it for current raids? Don't say cause of the 'new core'. The new core is supposed to be more closely aligned with retail than the previous one so that automatically makes theory craft and 'old numbers' all the more releveant.

    Raids here are often 4-healed, with overgeared healers, very little raid damage isn't healed up instantly, and it's hard to align the althor's proc with those few times the raid damage isn't instantly healed (see PP ooze, Rotface explosion, etc).
    This being said, how is it that people run into mana problems then? Something doesn't add up here if the healers are overgeared.

    As for your point on crutches, my personal view is that I'd rather a healer slowly increase their throughput safely rather than set up a bis, play without any crutches, and overreach. Being out of mana means you do zero heals. But as you said, it should be decided by the people themselves.
    Isn't it more satisfying to be able to perform something without a crutch? Being out of mana tells me there's 1 of 2 things wrong:

    * The player is doing it wrong
    * One of the other healers is doing it wrong

    Edit: There is a 3rd but I'm trying to give people credit in that I hope as dps they don't take ******ed amounts of damage trying to measure big dick dps.

    For once I do agree with magaginho.
    Omg....I had to check outside to see if it snowed. Never thought I'd see the day you two could ever agree on anything lol.
    Edited: January 1, 2017

  8. Updated the guide with some fixes, will add the 5 second rule and update the mana regen section in the next one :)

    Don't forget that those 2% mana also scale with your current gear. Those gems are optimized and will scale according to your gear. The more gear you have the more efficiency they deliver and that's the main reason why I state that at the end of the day those are the two gems that should be discussed under personal terms. Including your meta, even when gearing, doesn't fit in my head since I've personally geared all my Discipline priests with the Meta's that I've mentioned (I've also seen all the big Discipline Priests from back in the day rocking this same metas). However, like I've mentioned, it also depends on how the person wants to gear their character as a whole; If they want to be fully optimized, those two gems need to be considered but if they want to play like whatever they feel like, by all means, go for it.
    I agree on that this gem is quite useful, but I have some questions about it. The 2% mana applies to your total mana pool. Meaning the "only" benefit a disc gets from it is Rapture (not a small benefit, just assuming things). http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389 does give more crit chance, than http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41401 and a bigger mana pool in the end if your gear is high enough for it.
    Will this 2% mana get affected by raid buffs?

    I guess in the end it all comes down to personal preferences wether one is confident enough in Rapture management or prefers random procs in mana regeneration. But I would still want to hear your opinion on this one :)

    About meditation talent, why pick that if you cast something for max 1 sec each penance CD? What does "while casting" means? While on GCD? Anyways I don't really use such "mp5" at all. Replenishment, Shadowfiend, Hymn and smart use of Rupture, mana is not problem, most of the time, even w/o Innervates. Even less thread seems better choice that Meditation.
    I see the 5 second rule is really needed in the guide, I will add it as soon as I can. Meditation is a really strong mana regeneration talent for all the priests. Even if you cast instant spells, it still counts as casting and meanwhile you are casting, you are regenerating a fracture of your mana (you can see the exact amounts if you hover above your Mana Regen stat and your Caracter information tab). This talent is letting you regenerate 50% of your mana regeneration while casting. I will update the guide later with more information on this one.

    Haste, after I cap my GCD.... why do I need more haste? I don't think I do. So I choose as much crit as I can get and some hit rating, those dispel Miss really bother me, sometimes can even be crucial to hit that dispel.
    It all comes down to personal preferences, as I mentioned it in the guide. Some prefer to have more haste, in case the have to cast heals w/o the 25% haste buff, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=52800 gives. If you prefer to have some more crit, then you can optimise your gear likewise.
    As a pve discipline healer you will not need any hit rating in any raid environment. Any healer I see with hit rating should be a laughing stock as hit is only usefull against enemy NPCs not friendly ones.

    Grace talent ... Is it even useful? In dungeons.. nice, in 10mans.. maybe if tank healer is really bad and in 25mans its totally wasted points in my opinion.
    This talent is a really useful one actually. Meanwhile it increases the healing done only by you, the fully stacked 9% is quite a huge amount. With this talent you can save a lot more allies when they get on low health. The buff itself will be applied from one penance, and the stacks apply to each charge of the spell. Meaning the 2nd and the 3rd heal will heal for more than the 1st.
    The talent is not useful for only tank healing, but for any raider that is in need of a quick aid.

    Any disc has tried going for shadowfiend cd reduction in shadow? Seemed pretty weirdly good idea, but very situational according to each encounter.
    I wouldn't reccommend this point, because you would have to use 17 points in total on the shadow tree for just a 2 minute CD reduction on shadowfiend. You need these points for the valuable talents in the holy and the discipline trees.

  9. Thanks for your input. Thanks for explaining 5sec rule with mana regen.
    Grace seems good choice as filler, tough I have never felt need to put out more heals on single target, I'm raiding with good healers. No need to have inspiration on tank either as there are resto shaman in raid.. practically always, tough I still have talent for reasons later. I do 25man, and its very rare that I heal 10man. Penance is more of a "emergency top up" if other heals have unchained or grabbed and such.

    About mana regen, spirit and hit rating... well it's good to have mana regen a bit, but I really put it in same basket as hit rating - "pretty useless". Still, I have some 800 mana regen, so Meditation brings some benefit. Replenishment, melee boss and cooldowns, seems to do the job to have mana. I guess I have to play more to gain more experience with disc.

    This has been great help, will build my perfect spec eventually.

  10. As a pve discipline healer you will not need any hit rating in any raid environment. Any healer I see with hit rating should be a laughing stock as hit is only usefull against enemy NPCs not friendly ones.
    Very minor critique here. While you're right for the most part for WotLK content, a Holydin still gets a lot of use out of hit rating. It is needed to land their Judgment ability. With the proper talents, a Holydin should usually be the one using Judgment of Light, in addition to a talent that grants them increased cast speed when they hit a target with their Judgment. Of course they get 4% from talents, so the amount of hit rating they need is very minor. Anyway, very minor critique as it doesn't really pertain to the guide. :P

    It all comes down to personal preferences, as I mentioned it in the guide. Some prefer to have more haste, in case the have to cast heals w/o the 25% haste buff, http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=52800 gives. If you prefer to have some more crit, then you can optimise your gear likewise.
    As a pve discipline healer you will not need any hit rating in any raid environment. Any healer I see with hit rating should be a laughing stock as hit is only usefull against enemy NPCs not friendly ones.
    Honestly, it depends on if the person in question is actively raiding in a 10-man or a 25-man raiding environment. Optimally, a Discipline Priest should never be casting more than one spell between PW:S casts (Penance and a Flash Heal here and there). And if they are casting more, they are either doing things wrong, or their raid group needs to get another healer (or just replace bad healers).

    In a 10-man raiding environment, you are optimally restricted to 2 healers. It's not very feasible to expect one of the healers to cover all the heals while the Disc spams shields. Which means there will be a lot more casts between shields than there would be in a 25-man environment. Which is where the extra haste would be necessary.

    Either way, though, I don't think people should devalue spirit and crit. Crit is power to a Disc Priest, a huge amount of it. Spirit is regen of course, and the less skilled a player is at mana management, more of it they will need.
    About mana regen, spirit and hit rating... well it's good to have mana regen a bit, but I really put it in same basket as hit rating - "pretty useless". Still, I have some 800 mana regen, so Meditation brings some benefit. Replenishment, melee boss and cooldowns, seems to do the job to have mana. I guess I have to play more to gain more experience with disc.
    Mana regen stats are not "useless". Not even in the slightest. It's completely wrong to put them in the same spot as hit rating for a PvE Discipline Priest.

  11. Very minor critique here. While you're right for the most part for WotLK content, a Holydin still gets a lot of use out of hit rating. It is needed to land their Judgment ability. With the proper talents, a Holydin should usually be the one using Judgment of Light, in addition to a talent that grants them increased cast speed when they hit a target with their Judgment. Of course they get 4% from talents, so the amount of hit rating they need is very minor. Anyway, very minor critique as it doesn't really pertain to the guide. :P
    True, true :) I meant the hit rating for priest healers, who idd don't need any of it. Sorry for not being clear with the "any healer" term.

  12. First of all: brilliant guide - well thought and great to read.

    I agree on that this gem is quite useful, but I have some questions about it. The 2% mana applies to your total mana pool. Meaning the "only" benefit a disc gets from it is Rapture (not a small benefit, just assuming things). http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389 does give more crit chance, than http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41401 and a bigger mana pool in the end if your gear is high enough for it.
    Will this 2% mana get affected by raid buffs?
    Is it acutally usefull? I wouldnt even bother adding http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389 to the guide, because (compared to http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41333) in terms of stats SP > Crit and in terms of gemming 2x red & 1x yellow vs. 3x red it doesn't seem superior to me. Comparing them statwise including the required gems (and assuming the priest is haste capped) it's pretty much like 31 Crit vs. 36 SP.

  13. Of coarse mp5 is great, but it seems insignificant when I can get full mana with Rupture and CDs. I wouldn't drop spirit gear and steal gear from casters just to get guaranteed cc/dispells and such in those very rare scenarios. But still I got some hit rating gear that no one needed and I believe that will be last piece that I replace.

    Btw, only problem that I have is LK last phase, because harvest soul seems to not give me mana when it brakes shields. So mp5 is good for that, and those few encounters where you cant benefit from rupture so good.

  14. Is it acutally usefull? I wouldnt even bother adding http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389 to the guide, because (compared to http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41333) in terms of stats SP > Crit and in terms of gemming 2x red & 1x yellow vs. 3x red it doesn't seem superior to me. Comparing them statwise including the required gems (and assuming the priest is haste capped) it's pretty much like 31 Crit vs. 36 SP.
    I think it all comes down to personal preferences, if you prefer more crit or more spellpower. In terms of the stat preferations that I have mentioned in the guide, idd Ember is better than Beaming.
    I still like to include it to the guide to include the end game options in terms of meta gems :)

    Of coarse mp5 is great, but it seems insignificant when I can get full mana with Rupture and CDs. I wouldn't drop spirit gear and steal gear from casters just to get guaranteed cc/dispells and such in those very rare scenarios. But still I got some hit rating gear that no one needed and I believe that will be last piece that I replace.

    Btw, only problem that I have is LK last phase, because harvest soul seems to not give me mana when it brakes shields. So mp5 is good for that, and those few encounters where you cant benefit from rupture so good.
    Well when a haste, sp and crit gear is BiS for you then I wouldn't call it a "steal". Having hit items as a discipline is not giving you much benefit. Rather mockery or some laughs.
    Harvest sould should give you mana back if it fully breaks the shields. The only reason I can think of is that either a shield of yours procced Rapture right before the effect, or your shields are not breaking at the same time during Harvest soul. If you face mana problems after that phase, you should rotate your mana regeneration likewise to have them off cd right when you need them :)
    Edited: January 3, 2017

  15. I think it all comes down to personal preferences, if you prefer more crit or more spellpower. In terms of the stat preferations that I have mentioned in the guide, idd Ember is better than Beaming.
    I still like to include it to the guide to include the end game options in terms of meta gems :)

    Fair enough. :)


    Another comment, this time about the BIS-lists - especially the "maximising SP":

    I gonna put the BIS items mentioned by you into brackets.

    (http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50644) vs. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50664

    (http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50613) vs. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50702

    (http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50684) vs. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50631


    Why did you pick those particular items? I'm kinda confused because on the one hand you are recommending Spirit/Crit and on the other hand you are recommending Crit/Haste. Correct me if im wrong, but isn't 3x Spirit/Crit > 3x Crit/Haste, since you should be haste capped w/o those offparts?



    Contrary to common beliefs, MP5 is no longer clearly better than spirit for discipline priests. Since as your gear improves, so does the worth of your spirit, because spirit lets you regenerate a percentage of your mana pool. Meaning the more mana/intellect you have, the more useful spirit will be for you.
    Summary: If you are at around ilvl 264, choose spirit over MP5, given the choice. At sub-264 levels, use MP5 if given the choice.
    Could you be more specific about this please? :) (How does gear affect spirit?)

    I guess there are several people out there, including me, that lack some knowledge here.
    Edited: January 4, 2017

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