1. When necrotic jumps, LK gets a slight damage buff that stacks. Considering your melee group is right next to the shamblings you'll probably going to be getting a lot of unwanted jumps onto them, that will not only increase the damage of the LK without damaging the shambling but also lower the damage of the current necrotic stack, meaning it will do even less damage on them.

    This means your DPS needs to be pretty damn good. If P1 takes too long, and if LK doesnt lose his stacks before you re-enter into P2 after the transition, you'll get eaten alive, assuming you get past P1. This isn't just about the tank, the entire raid needs to have the gear to pull this off.

  2. When necrotic jumps, LK gets a slight damage buff that stacks. Considering your melee group is right next to the shamblings you'll probably going to be getting a lot of unwanted jumps onto them, that will not only increase the damage of the LK without damaging the shambling but also lower the damage of the current necrotic stack, meaning it will do even less damage on them.

    This means your DPS needs to be pretty damn good. If P1 takes too long, and if LK doesnt lose his stacks before you re-enter into P2 after the transition, you'll get eaten alive, assuming you get past P1. This isn't just about the tank, the entire raid needs to have the gear to pull this off.
    I am aware. Lich King didn't have plague siphon when we reached p2. Considering we are pushing phase 1 without 2nd shambling, we have enough dps to make p1 short enough.

  3. I am aware. Lich King didn't have plague siphon when we reached p2. Considering we are pushing phase 1 without 2nd shambling, we have enough dps to make p1 short enough.
    In that case, since you say that soul reaper is being the problem, you should look to rotate external cooldowns. A prot paladin only has one strong personal defensive - Divine Protection. You can use that one to soak one soul reaper in its entirety, since its a hard cooldown. For the other ones you will need to call out Pain Supression and Hand of Sacrifice or Intervene, but with Hand of Sacrifice, which can run out and most likely will (as you've found out), you might need your healer to pop a throughoutput cooldown as well, or kite a bit if he doesn't have one. If you're using heroism throughout P2, you could try simply kiting for the duration of soul reaper and rely on your healers to just overheal.

    If you have nothing available, you can use an Ardent proc.
    Edited: March 15, 2017

  4. If you're using heroism throughout P2, you could try simply kiting for the duration of soul reaper and rely on your healers to just overheal.
    This is a massive damage loss to the melee in the group, and the Lich King still hits the tank. You cannot "kite" him.

  5. In that case, since you say that soul reaper is being the problem, you should look to rotate external cooldowns. A prot paladin only has one strong personal defensive - Divine Protection. You can use that one to soak one soul reaper in its entirety, since its a hard cooldown. For the other ones you will need to call out Pain Supression and Hand of Sacrifice or Intervene, but with Hand of Sacrifice, which can run out and most likely will (as you've found out), you might need your healer to pop a throughoutput cooldown as well, or kite a bit if he doesn't have one. If you're using heroism throughout P2, you could try simply kiting for the duration of soul reaper and rely on your healers to just overheal.

    If you have nothing available, you can use an Ardent proc.
    As described in the original post, I had hand of salv with glyph + hand of sac from ret pally; soul reaper still did 50k dmg followed up with instant melee swing which was all in 0.5 second range. His damage being absolutely ridiculous in 10hc is one thing, but still.

    I think just simply doing two tanks and taking the fight slower could be a viable solution for now as the damage is ridiculous, but healers gave me feedbacks that they are not sure if they can handle keeping two tanks up at the same time just because they have one casting bar and two people taking massive amount of ridiculous damage atm. (Well, besides holy paly who has "two" casting bars)

    We'll see how it goes this week. Fingers crossed for normalizing damage on 10 heroics also.

  6. This is a massive damage loss to the melee in the group, and the Lich King still hits the tank. You cannot "kite" him.
    It's a marginal damage loss, and the Lich King will land hits slightly less frequently as it will waste time getting into range. Remember this is only 6 seconds.

  7. very constructive advice.

    1.) I don't need your ****ty heals.

    2.) Armor suffers from DR. If I am correct, with full armor setup without buffs and devotion aura, you have 36k armor at tops. That will be around 68% damage reduction. I am sitting in 31k armor which is 64% damage reduction. If you don't wanna heal cuz I am missing out 4% physical damage reduction, you should honestly find a different place to troll.
    36k armor is paper face Lk hc. lol

  8. 36k armor is paper face Lk hc. lol
    Full BIS tank running double stam trinkets has 37k armor. So, I guess running double stam trinkets is a bad idea.

    Will try double armor trinkets this week.

    Some calculations for myself-
    --------------------------------------------------
    Base Armor : 30000
    --------------------------------------------------

    228 + 258 = 486 stamina from trinkets. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos. = 486 * 120/100 = 583.2 stamina.

    Extra HP : 8164.8 HP

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 64.329%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Armor given from two trinkets : 1890 (normal organ) + 2576 (heroic pts) 10% from talent. 2% from gem. = 4466 * 112/100 = 5001.92 armor.

    Total Armor : 35001.92

    You gain 240 stamina (normal organ) with full procs. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos = 240 * 120/100 = 288 stamina.

    Extra HP : 4032 HP.

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 67.784%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Ignoring proc of Sindragosa Trinket, PTS, and corroded skeleton key you are trading approximately

    4132.8 HP to 3.455% constant physical damage reduction.

    -> Lich King 10 heroic average hit 30,000 on Double Stam trinket (30000 armor)

    3.455% = 1036.5 less damage per hit.
    Edited: March 16, 2017

  9. It's a marginal damage loss, and the Lich King will land hits slightly less frequently as it will waste time getting into range. Remember this is only 6 seconds.
    Marginal damage loss with no up-side. I consider that "massive", because that's being bad. And Lich King hits slightly less frequently? How so? Unless you have Engineering for the rocket boosts, it's literally pointless to bother with this.

  10. Full BIS tank running double stam trinkets has 37k armor. So, I guess running double stam trinkets is a bad idea.

    Will try double armor trinkets this week.

    Some calculations for myself-
    --------------------------------------------------
    Base Armor : 30000
    --------------------------------------------------

    228 + 258 = 486 stamina from trinkets. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos. = 486 * 120/100 = 583.2 stamina.

    Extra HP : 8164.8 HP

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 64.329%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Armor given from two trinkets : 1890 (normal organ) + 2576 (heroic pts) 10% from talent. 2% from gem. = 4466 * 112/100 = 5001.92 armor.

    Total Armor : 35001.92

    You gain 240 stamina (normal organ) with full procs. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos = 240 * 120/100 = 288 stamina.

    Extra HP : 4032 HP.

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 67.784%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Ignoring proc of Sindragosa Trinket, PTS, and corroded skeleton key you are trading approximately

    4132.8 HP to 3.455% constant physical damage reduction.

    -> Lich King 10 heroic average hit 30,000 on Double Stam trinket (30000 armor)

    3.455% = 1036.5 less damage per hit.
    I have around 44k armor when solo tanking when fully buffed and what not, just go for sindy + organ i find it most valuable, just because of the first phase nothing else, when solotanking first phase you want to push and live thats all you do and pray to god you dont get procced, if you do ur done, you really do need all EXTERNAL CDs avaible to you in second and third phase on soul reaper. As LK is currently a bit "bugged" doing way to much dmg on his auto attacks you just need to be overhealed, but as u said ur hpally isnt best just guide him and call for overhealing for him.

  11. I have around 44k armor when solo tanking when fully buffed and what not, just go for sindy + organ i find it most valuable, just because of the first phase nothing else, when solotanking first phase you want to push and live thats all you do and pray to god you dont get procced, if you do ur done, you really do need all EXTERNAL CDs avaible to you in second and third phase on soul reaper. As LK is currently a bit "bugged" doing way to much dmg on his auto attacks you just need to be overhealed, but as u said ur hpally isnt best just guide him and call for overhealing for him.
    Alrightie. Thank you. I will try organ+sindy!

  12. I had hand of salv with glyph + hand of sac from ret pally; soul reaper still did 50k dmg .
    Something doesn’t sound right about this, either your defensive cooldown timing is way off or your Ret paladin is throwing that Hand of Sacrifice on the wrong person.

    After the application, Soul Reaper deals 50k Shadow damage on 10NML, 60k on 10HC, 60k on 25NML, and 70k on 25HC. That shadow damage is partially resistible so I would expect to see 40k-50k Soul Reaper shadow damage without defensive cooldowns. How are you getting hit with 50k Soul Reapers when you have 30% damage reduction from Hand of Sacrifice and 20% reduction from glyphed Hand of Salvation? As far as I know, those should stack if they are cast by two different Paladins. That would make base damage about 100k which would one-shot most tanks. I think your Ret Paladin is lying to you! Does he bubble when he “casts” Hand of Sacrifice on you?

    The application of Soul Reaper causes 50% instant weapon damage but that is not the killer, most tanks should live through the application. The big deal happens 5 seconds after the application, that’s when Soul Reaper becomes a tank destroying BUFF/DEBUFF combo and this is where tank swapping helps.

    5 seconds after the application, the debuff inflicts 50k-70k instant Shadow Damage on the tank and now you have a tank standing there with about 30% HP or less depending on their HP pool. At the same time, the buff part of Soul Reaper grants LK a 100% melee haste increase. This is where he finishes off tanks.

    There’s a video of a “BIS” Prot Paladin face tanking Soul Reaper on 25HC and taking over 80k damage in less than a second; There was a 20k melee hit immediately followed by the 46k Soul Reaper Shadow damage explosion and within the same second LK hits again for 16k. Ardent Defender can cover the first burst but there’s another one every 30 second.

    You need defensive cooldowns or you need to use two tanks; one takes the 50k-70k Shadow damage explosion and the other tanks LK through his insane attack speed buff. Unfortunately, Wotlk Paladin tanks don’t have as many defensive cooldowns as DKs who have many more they can cycle for Soul Reaper. Here's an example copied from an old forum:

    1st SR -> Hand of Sac + Vamp Blood + AMS ( For 60k hit )
    2nd SR -> IBF
    3rd SR -> Hand of Sac + Vamp Blood + AMS
    4th SR -> PS
    5th SR -> PS + Vamp Blood + AMS
    6th SR -> IBF

    But...we're not DKs! We still have Sindy's trinket, Divine Protection, Divine Guardian/CancelAura, glyphed Hand of Salvation and Ardent when all else fails. When I raided with <Proud>, Jiji would OT a lot of times and he liked to taunt LK off the MT before Soul Reaper was even cast so he took the Shadow explosion on his DK OT and the MT just had to live through the haste buff. But, he was really good at timing abilities while tanking and leading the raid and it’s probably easier for most raids to just taunt LK after he had applied Soul Reaper. Sometimes I would forget that he was taunting for Soul Reaper and I would instinctively taunt back off him before Soul Reaper, he LOVED that.

    I have also healed a solo tank on LK and while it is mana intensive there are plenty of opportunities to regain mana with Divine Plea throughout the fight. Your HPala cannot be reactive with Soul Reaper, they need to start casting a Holy Light before the timer expires so it lands right after the Shadow damage, and just spam cast it until the LK buff drops. If you wait until the tank needs a heal then the tank will die before he gets it. He also needs to cycle his healing cooldowns with these Soul Reapers; Divine Illumination (w/T10 2P), Engineering Gloves, Haste Pot, Divine Favor/Shock, Wings, or bubble/Sac.
    Edited: March 27, 2017

  13. Something doesn’t sound right about this, either your defensive cooldown timing is way off or your Ret paladin is throwing that Hand of Sacrifice on the wrong person.
    I gave up bothering arguing this sort of thing about the time people were trying to argue that Havoc's Call is BIS for a Prot Paladin because they don't know what a competent Hunter or Rogue is (or hell, competent Paladins).

    You need defensive cooldowns or you need to use two tanks; one takes the 50k-70k Shadow damage explosion and the other tanks LK through his insane attack speed buff. Unfortunately, Wotlk Paladin tanks don’t have as many defensive cooldowns as DKs who have many more they can cycle for Soul Reaper. Here's an example copied from an old forum:

    1st SR -> Hand of Sac + Vamp Blood + AMS ( For 60k hit )
    2nd SR -> IBF
    3rd SR -> Hand of Sac + Vamp Blood + AMS
    4th SR -> PS
    5th SR -> PS + Vamp Blood + AMS
    6th SR -> IBF

    But...we're not DKs!
    I suppose it's worth mentioning that while Death Knights have more defensives to use, those abilities also have shorter CDs as well. It's also interesting how every Death Knight spec has its own defensive, all of which being useful for Soul Reaper in particular.
    But then I have people argue with me when I say a Paladin is stronger at being an off-tank, while a Death Knight is better suited for being a main tank.

    On the subject of main-tank vs. off-tank, I feel it's also worth mentioning that itemization, gear choices and stat priorities do change (optimally) depending on what the tank in question is doing during a particular encounter. For example, a main-tank on Lich King will want to maximize their EH, while an off-tank will get more of a benefit out of avoidance due to tanking more than just a single enemy (particularly block). But I guess this isn't too important when people are brute-forcing the encounter with BIS gear and a 30% nerf to the raid.

  14. Full BIS tank running double stam trinkets has 37k armor. So, I guess running double stam trinkets is a bad idea.

    Will try double armor trinkets this week.

    Some calculations for myself-
    --------------------------------------------------
    Base Armor : 30000
    --------------------------------------------------

    228 + 258 = 486 stamina from trinkets. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos. = 486 * 120/100 = 583.2 stamina.

    Extra HP : 8164.8 HP

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 64.329%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Armor given from two trinkets : 1890 (normal organ) + 2576 (heroic pts) 10% from talent. 2% from gem. = 4466 * 112/100 = 5001.92 armor.

    Total Armor : 35001.92

    You gain 240 stamina (normal organ) with full procs. 10% from talent. 10% from gbok/gbos = 240 * 120/100 = 288 stamina.

    Extra HP : 4032 HP.

    Physical Damage Reduction against mobs of level 83. (bosses) : 67.784%
    --------------------------------------------------

    Ignoring proc of Sindragosa Trinket, PTS, and corroded skeleton key you are trading approximately

    4132.8 HP to 3.455% constant physical damage reduction.

    -> Lich King 10 heroic average hit 30,000 on Double Stam trinket (30000 armor)

    3.455% = 1036.5 less damage per hit.
    Your calculation of Armor's Physical Damage Reduction is very far off. You have to consider the Original Damage before Armor is applied.

    A ICC 25 Boss will hit you for 60k Damage with 15k Armor as a DPS. Thats about a 50% Physical Damage Reduction with Zero Damage Reduction aside from Armor. Which means its original Damage is 120k.

    A Tank at 30k Armor that gains 1000 Armor will get in estimate 1% Damage Reduction from the Original Damage of 120k, which is 1200 Physical Damage Reduction per Auto Attack from a Boss.

    A common miscalculation is to take the 1% Physical Damage Reduction and apply it to your current Physical Damage Taken with your Current Armor & Other Damage Reductions that you have. Which severely undermines the Actual Physical Damage Reduction that you get from Armor.
    Edited: September 13, 2022

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