The use of 4-5 combo points appears to be necessary when you are taking 5/5 Relentless Strikes talent, giving each combo point a 20% chance to restore 35 energy (or almost the entire cost of envenom).
So if you use Env @ 3CP, you'll gain the buff, but won't be able to cast mutilate again for longer time than the buff is even up. So your envenom uptime MAY be a bit longer, but not by much because you're short on enough energy. You have probably found yourself waiting a mildly disappointing amount of time to be able to use envenom because you used it at 3CP, didn't get any energy back, used Mutilate, and only got 2 CP so you have to wait even more to use it again.
OR
You can use it at 4-5, you're Envenom buff uptime may be marginally lesser, but you're using more mutilates and Envenom is hitting harder.
This is just from my experience. I use it at 4-5 and average 8.0-8.5k DPS single target (4.7 rogue here).
Feel free to share thoughts on the matter. I have tested on training dummies many times but results always seem inconclusive.
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Member
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Member
I put in my gear (exception of shoulders as I have the black betrayal 232 ilvl shoulders) in the spreadsheet and it's telling me to gem agility, which seems super wrong. I see everywhere you want 4k AP - I'm assuming that's unbuffed AP?
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Member
Use envenom on 3+ points just to keep the buff up. With my rogue and the end of DBS my Instant poison's DMG is just a bit behind my Melee DMG. And no matter what happens I never go under 18k DPS, even with crappy setup for the raid. I confess that my items and build are a bit strange but I can assure you it works. I did 21k DPS on DBS with crappy setup and 1 Hysteria at the start of the fight.
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
The idea is that with the raid setup I am at max Crit (the max possible you can get when you remove the blizzard's crit reduction (around 3.4% and the glancing blows an average of 24%), which means insane amount of energy gain + insane amount of crits from my poison.
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Member
Hey there
Recently got into Sin Rogue after getting a few key items. Currently running 2t10 with Rib Spreader, Lungbreaker HC, Herkuml and WFS. Key stats unbuffed are 4600 AP, 393 Hit rating, 26/26 expertise, 686 (20.92%) Haste, 55,71% crit chance. With full buffs I'm 2% under white crit cap (WCC: 66.38%, Crit: 64.32%).
First dps test on a Jaraxxus 25nm was nothing to write home about. I barely exceeded 10k DPS, and while I'm pretty sure I was losing at least 1k dps because of sloppiness while figuring out my own key bindings and macros, it's still way less than expected.
The spreadsheet was giving me the best result with 51/18/2 talents (Lightning Reflex 3/3) at over 12k dps. As a matter of fact, with this setup I found myself energy starved at all times, leading to bad Envenom uptime. AFAIK Sin Rogue only energy generation tools are Overkill and crits, therefore even with 3+CP Envenoms I just couldn't keep up.
Swapping to Relentless Strikes was a no brainer after that. I gave up 2% crit and 10% haste, and the spreadsheet is not happy about that, it is projecting a 500 DPS loss. I still haven't tested it in 25s but even on Dummies the result is very promising. I have much more headroom with Energy and can keep over 95% Envenom uptime.
Another point of contention is the decision to put 5 points in Cut to the Chase instead of 3 and the remaining 2 in Turn the Tables. I understand that TtT DPS improvement is marginal, but Cut to the Chase functions egregiously with 3 points (the only point of failure being the very first SnD refresh, which is shorter) and for the most conservative, 4 points is more than enough aswell.
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Wind of Northrend - Rehabilitated
Yea unbuffed AP. Do rember that sheets are guidelines. Agi gives your crit on top of AP.
At full BiS gear u can drop the 5/5 Relentless Strikes. Your crits/haste should cover the energy regen needed to spam mutilates and Envenoms (most of the times xd)
Updated the talents.
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Member
Ok but what assasination has that combat lacks?
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Member
Simply put, he's not in direct competition with any other class for loot. No one wants Agility Daggers except desperate Hunters, Herkuml goes a LONG way, WFS is another very solid option, only Retris want TAJ, neither Combat nor Feral prioritize crit/haste stat distribution, and both T10.5 pieces drop from VoA25.
In tank and spank fights, a Sin Rogue will perform slightly better than Combat.
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The Great Detective
You still have competition on 80% of your gear. The only things you can get away with for free are your 3 non set pieces if you're playing 2/5 and your weapons. Even if taij and herkumi are listed as bis alternatives, I'd suggest fetching DBW whenever you can. It pulls ahead in most fights.
Assa will never outdps combat (in this patch at least) no matter if it's a single target or aoe fight, but it's a spec that's very capable of pulling good numbers and it's something else to play in case you're bored of combat.
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Member
I disagree with your figures about gear competition.
No one wants these pieces:
Head: Geistlord Punishment Sack
Shoulders: Cultist's Bloodsoaked Spaulders
Wrists: Umbrage Armbands is an alternative BiS for ArmPen users but Sin Rogues has priority on this one
Ring: Band of the Bone Colossus, also 2t10 Combat rogues don't want Signet of Twilight
Ring 2: it's going to be the rep ring anyway
MH & OH: You're the only one rolling for these
Trinket: TAJ is for Retri and Sin rogues only
Gloves and Legs: T10.5 from VoA25 or marks
Cloak and Chest: Ikfirus and Shadowvault Slayer Cloak both drop from Gunship25hc, which is a joke of a fight
That's 8 BiS pieces with no competition, 2 more with little competition (TAJ and Umbrage), and 2 more you're going to get even in a pug (Ikfirus and Cloak)
Now onto the rest:
Trinket 2: STS is too strong to pass, and DBW is also BiS, but arguably either WFShc or Herkuml will do just fine along with TAJ
Ranged weapon: Shrapnel Star or Stakethrowerhc are good replacements while you wait for a Fal'Inrush
Feet and Belt: Tough luck, there's only one of each at 277ilvl
Neck: If you're not going for Sindragosa HC, Precious Putrid Collar is better than Sindy25nm neck
2 slots have huge competition (Belt and Feet) and no alternative, 3 slots (Trinket, Neck, Ranged) have huge competition and good alternatives
Out of 17 BiS you have:
7-8 BiS with no competition
2 BiS with little competition
4 BiS which can be farmed in any raid
3-4 BiS which have huge competition but decent alternatives
Sin Rogues can pull at least the same or very slightly higher DPS than Combat in some specific fights: Lady, Saurfang, Fester, Rotface. Between the remaining fights:
Sin Rogue does as well as Combat on Marrow if he is not switching on spikes
BPC and BQL favor Combat but Sin can still hold its own
PP, Sindragosa and LK are much better as Combat and Sin Rogues sucks there
This is merely my opinion and I'd like to point out that Combat is much more versatile and forgiving. Also, Combat is better at end wing boss, which is a huge perk. All things considered you play Sin Rogue when LK and Valithria drop the daggers and nobody wants them and, at the same time, STS and DBW have too much competition. You can also passively farm Sin gear as Combat because, again, nobody wants that stuff and, at some point, you'll have more gear as Sin while you don't have STS/DBW and you might aswell give Sin a chance.
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Member
why the Slow Main Hand and Fast Off-hand? Off-hand misses more than main hand. If we are trying to get as much Deadly Poisons as possible to proc Instant Poison shouldn't the fast dagger with Deadly Poison be in the Main Hand? Mutilate procs both weapons anyways, so is not because damage abilities use always Main Hand.
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Wind of Northrend - Rehabilitated
Off hand misses more than main hand?
How about u read the guide once again and take it slow.
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Member
Does WP stack with Aimed shot?
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Member
I think only damage stacks but not the debuff. It would be broken if 50% already less healing stacks with more of them.
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Member
You still get the envenom buff tho even if it is doodged, don’t know if this is a bug or how it is supposed to be.
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Forum Veteran
https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=57993
In my opinion it doesn't depend on hit. Its damage does, but self-buff shouldn't depend on hit. It's like Slice and Dice with damage.
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