25 Characters limitation - Multiboxing

[Styx-]

Well maybe it's because they know that if they had made an announcement on the webpage instead of opening a thread, some multiboxers would have opened an exact thread like this one to vent their anger. And there's nothing wrong with calling things by their name, if they're soft botting, that's what it is.

And this thread is being moderated, the other day a few posts that crossed the line got deleted. Allowing to have a debate/discussion about a topic is a normal thing. But if by moderating you imply that they should ban on sight anyone that speaks against or in favour of it, then that's not moderating, that's censoring, big difference.

If by moderating you mean deleting posts calling out obvious lies that have been proven so by posting actual facts(called "straight facts" in this "moderated debate") that have consciously been placed by officials to shed a bad overall light on a topic that's already been decided, then yes this debate is indeed "moderated" :)

Your "soft-botting" logic would apply to any swifty oneshot macro ingame since u're pressing 1 button but your character is doing more than 1 action (activating trinket + using a spell).

[Amdus]

If by moderating you mean deleting posts calling out obvious lies that have been proven so by posting actual facts(called "straight facts" in this "moderated debate") that have consciously been placed by officials to shed a bad overall light on a topic that's already been decided, then yes this debate is indeed "moderated" :)

>If by moderating you mean...

I don't mean anything, being a forum moderator already has a meaning, I'm not going to create a new meaning at my convenience. They are here to moderate the forums, not the debates, there are no moderators in this discussion, we have been given the opportunity to express ourselves freely and evolve the debates naturally. They simply moderate the forums, which doesn't mean at all that they can't participate in the debate if they wish to do so.

The posts that got deleted were basically 2 multiboxers that started to argue and ended up calling each other names, which doesn't bring anything of substance in the "debate".

Your "soft-botting" logic would apply to any swifty oneshot macro ingame since u're pressing 1 button but your character is doing more than 1 action (activating trinket + using a spell).

I'm not using a third party program nor addons in order to run a use/cast macro, it is intended to be this way.

[turkmusun]

By late I mean 3 minutes after you're able to queue, at peak hours that's enough to be left out. And no it doesn't take longer for them, quite the opposite because they are in WG already, so they get a popup to join the battle instantly instead of having to talk to the mages. That's why they're always there, to ensure their place in WG.

Nothing is preventing anyone from queuing in the exactly same way those multiboxers are doing it.

[xandor]

Offtopic: I have been re-reading the thread and was wondering about one thing. I am hoping you could clear this for me. From what I understand, if "low-grade botting" is allowed on Warmane, would that include fish bots as well (it requires no complex path finding and whatnot)? Recently I have seen a huge influx of level 20 characters finishing under immunity buff in Wintergrasp. Have they become legal? Sorry for the possibly dumb question, but I am not sure what is legal anymore and the responses in this thread got me so damn confused...

Of course fishing bots are not allowed. I assume the question is sort of a "joke" but it also emphasize what I was kinda trying to say earlier.
A moderator (someone that is supposed to enforce and inform about rules) saying that multiboxing (which is completely allowed) is soft botting (a word that is used for something that is always against the rules) is very wrong.

Anyone that read a post of a moderator saying that multiboxing is botting can both make them get the idea that it is against the rules and also see it as a official statement from warmane.

A example of another thing that could be said would be that using addons could be seen as exploiting because you can get information that is almost impossible to get when you play normally without addons. (like tracking what cds nearby players have, which are on cds and when they are ready again)
Using lua code to get information that normally is very hard or maybe even impossible to get without it and then display information on the screen with that information. It can even tell you what buttons to press, that can also be seen as soft botting.
So if a moderator said that addons are low grade exploiting then that would seem pretty weird also. Since then the playerbase sees that official members of the staff thinks it is exploiting.

I am pretty sure I had addons in blizzard's wow that had auto release corpse and auto accept battlegrounds, that could also be seen as real botting. Performing an action without any user input.
So I guess using addons should be seen as botting and exploting then if multiboxing is soft botting.

[turkmusun]

Of course fishing bots are not allowed. I assume the question is sort of a "joke" but it also emphasize what I was kinda trying to say earlier.

Please do not mock me (unintentionally or not), but this is what I have concluded after reading the thread. I have mentioned fishing bots because I see a lot more of them around Wintergrasp than ever before and they seemed to fall under the "soft botting". Just wanted to make sure by asking the moderators...

[Styx-]

Maybe you should, just to be sure ofc, also uninstall TSM (3rd party and allowed) or addons like DBM that post timers on your screen automatically.. better safe than sorry

[LMRig]

I was looking almost at every post in this thread. I don't know who is multiboxer from people who posted here a message, but I want to tell you this, I don't care what blizzard said about multiboxing, calculate how many people are playing PvP on the official servers and compare it to this server, their gameplay doesn't have to be ruined by a few multiboxers.

This server needs money from multiboxers, everyone knows that... The only thing to consider is - does the server care about people? If yes (if not, why it exists?), I believe that MANY MORE people hate playing against multiboxers all the time than how many multiboxers (count the whole team as one person, mkay) exists here...

It's a really low % of people on this server, compared to all angry/sad people which got ruined game by multiboxer.

!THIS IS FUNSERVER! But this FUN is ruined by a few players and people who wanted to create this funserver allowing this, which is not okay for me. And everyone (even these people who will cut their leg to just tell us that it is allowed so we can't complain) must know that it is not fun for most people, they just want to play - that's also why they are not coming to forums... Imagine gathering votes from all online players during peak - 12000+ players...

This is a free server and should listen to the most of player base, sadly people won't leave because there are a lot of players who still want to play WotLk.

You can say it's not boting or whatever. You can say I should stop playing then. I don't care, I'm a player of this server for many years, I can find fun here even with them. I don't care about your opinion and only a few others compared the most players. Only management of this server should consider what do they want to do for people, because it's not blizzard's server, it's a private server and they can do everything, and then they should step in it.

[Amdus]

Please do not mock me (unintentionally or not), but this is what I have concluded after reading the thread. I have mentioned fishing bots because I see a lot more of them around Wintergrasp than ever before and they seemed to fall under the "soft botting". Just wanted to make sure by asking the moderators...

Maybe you should, just to be sure ofc, also uninstall TSM (3rd party and allowed) or addons like DBM that post timers on your screen automatically.. better safe than sorry

Or maybe you should stop trying to make extravagant statements and just accept once and for all that multiboxing is soft botting and the staff is ALLOWING you to do it as long as you keep it limited to 25 characters, being this the only instance where the use of 3rd party programs are allowed.

And don't even act like you're not special snowflakes already, let me remind you that with the exception of this thread, there's a clear rule that forbids players to speak against multiboxing or even discuss it, so stop it already with your tantrums, the paranoia and the victim complex. You're just getting your characters limited to 25, get over it already.

[Styx-]

stop it already with your tantrums, the paranoia and the victim complex.

Correct me if I'm wrong but were'nt you the one blaming it on others earlier that you fail to show up in time to queue for wintergrasp? Also acting as if the game is unplayable while multiboxers actually affect less than 1% of the content you can do in this game? But then again you failed to grasp the essence of the last few pages of this thread anyway.

[turkmusun]

I was looking almost at every post in this thread. I don't know who is multiboxer from people who posted here a message, but I want to tell you this, I don't care what blizzard said about multiboxing, calculate how many people are playing PvP on the official servers and compare it to this server, their gameplay doesn't have to be ruined by a few multiboxers.

This server needs money from multiboxers, everyone knows that... The only thing to consider is - does the server care about people? If yes (if not, why it exists?), I believe that MANY MORE people hate playing against multiboxers all the time than how many multiboxers (count the whole team as one person, mkay) exists here...

It's a really low % of people on this server, compared to all angry/sad people which got ruined game by multiboxer.

!THIS IS FUNSERVER! But this FUN is ruined by a few players and people who wanted to create this funserver allowing this, which is not okay for me. And everyone (even these people who will cut their leg to just tell us that it is allowed so we can't complain) must know that it is not fun for most people, they just want to play - that's also why they are not coming to forums... Imagine gathering votes from all online players during peak - 12000+ players...

This is a free server and should listen to the most of player base, sadly people won't leave because there are a lot of players who still want to play WotLk.

You can say it's not boting or whatever. You can say I should stop playing then. I don't care, I'm a player of this server for many years, I can find fun here even with them. I don't care about your opinion and only a few others compared the most players. Only management of this server should consider what do they want to do for people, because it's not blizzard's server, it's a private server and they can do everything, and then they should step in it.

Even though I do not agree with your points, I still feel like you are bringing in some nice arguments to the discussion. Let me try to counter some of them.

The amount of characters that are a part of multiboxing groups on this server seems rather small compared to overall player base (even if we had 100 multiboxers with maxed out teams, that would still be less than a quarter of the server capacity). I think we will agree that there aren't that many of them. Regular people likely bring more income than multiboxers due to their sheer numbers. This is just my opinion here, I do not have any actual numbers to back it up though.

As a regular player I immensely enjoy fighting multiboxers and the bigger their team is, more satisfaction there is in bringing them down. But, I am just one player and the majority might or might not feel like you do. Do note that you do not have any numbers to back your claims either.

Again, I am not going to provide numbers, but I feel like most players are doing Wintergrasp only while they still need honor, VoA gear or achievements. After that is done, they stop playing it. It is not the case with the multiboxers as I have seen more than one BiS geared multiboxer enjoying WG.

When you write posts from one point of view, please consider the other one as well.

...

Not sure why did you even quote me there since you were discussing things over with Styx.

[LMRig]

"When you write posts from one point of view, please consider the other one as well."

I do, but I know it's only a small % of players so I absolutely don't take any arguments about it seriously, I was in maaaany guilds for these years going 25 raids, 25 premade, I brought so many new players here and not a single one of them liked it. And yes, we were talking about it pretty often.
E: oh wait, there was one... Another multiboxer.

That's also why I will not lead a discussion about it, just posted one thing.
Have fun here :-) .

[Amdus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but were'nt you the one blaming it on others earlier that you fail to show up in time to queue for wintergrasp? Also acting as if the game is unplayable while multiboxers actually affect less than 1% of the content you can do in this game? But then again you failed to grasp the essence of the last few pages of this thread anyway.

I'm not blaming the "others" I'm blaming the multiboxers, because they are at fault for people being left out of wintergrasp and this is not a personal opinion it's a fact. I never took this personal nor I mentioned my feelings towards multiboxers because that's irrelevant to the topic. WG was limited to 240 players for both factions on retail, here must be increased slightly but yet is not unlimited. I know this, because I got left out of several WG if I joined "late" and by late one can go as far as saying 1 minute later in the most extreme of the cases.

1 player takes 25 spots. If you're unable to see why is that unfair, then furthering this particular element of the discussion is pointless.

And regarding the soft botting aspect, it doesn't matter in what fancy way you try to camouflage it. In the end that's the way it is, and you're just in denial about it. Instead of simply acknowledging it and moving on (since the staff is allowing you to use your multibox stuff) you attempt to debate this fact using semantics, and since it obviously doesn't work you decide to throw a tantrum despite being allowed to multibox anyways...

The "essence" of the last pages of this thread are multiboxers throwing tantrums because someone is telling them something true that they don't want to hear.

[turkmusun]

"When you write posts from one point of view, please consider the other one as well."

I do, but I know it's only a small % of players so I absolutely don't take any arguments about it seriously, I was in maaaany guilds for these years going 25 raids, 25 premade, I brought so many new players here and not a single one of them liked it. And yes, we were talking about it pretty often.
E: oh wait, there was one... Another multiboxer.

That's also why I will not lead a discussion about it, just posted one thing.
Have fun here :-) .

Thanks for considering the other side as well and bringing up some fair points.

My point was that we can not claim that the general public either likes or dislikes multiboxers based on our anecdotal evidence. I am a part of a guild in which there are 30ish regular players. I can vouch that every single one of them doesn't have anything against multiboxers. But hey, that's just my relatively small guild...

[Amdus]

Not sure why did you even quote me there since you were discussing things over with Styx.

[...]multiboxing is soft botting and the staff is ALLOWING you to do it as long as you keep it limited to 25 characters, being this the only instance where the use of 3rd party programs are allowed.

How do I know this?

25 actions with one press isn't 1 press = 1 action.
Pretty straightforward logic. Allowed doesn't make it not be what it is, that's really all there is to it. It's legal, it's allowed, but it still is what it is.

I think it should come without saying that it is allowed in this instance (multiboxing), I don't need to "ask the staff" if fishing bots are allowed...

[Pidgeonlord]

Except that a dictionary isn't what determines a rule set. It can be automated, doesn't mean it's against the rules. Vice versa.

Noted. Would you, please, explain me how the rules are determined so we may avoid future misunderstanding?

Botting is clearly against the rules and I wholeheartedly agree. The problem I see here is addressing a legal way to play the game (multiboxing) in a similar fashion to a illegal way (using an AI to play the game instead of the player)".

People in this thread have already adopted the newly coined term "soft botting” and have started to use it in order to put a negative connotation onto a perfectly legal practice.

Or maybe you should stop trying to make extravagant statements and just accept once and for all that multiboxing is soft botting.

This might cause a further divide among the community which, in my personal opinion, moderators should try to avoid.

The ban reason is largely meaningless. The sole purpose of it is to (in quotations, " ") provide a short and quick description of the offense committed. The rule set goes much MUCH deeper into detail than that, and thus isn't determined by whether or not you fell under any sort of dictionary definition or category.

I was never talking about "ban reasons". I'm very well aware of what you wrote here but it has little to do about the topic at hand. "Multiboxers should be banned because they are botting." this is a wrong statement and by god that’s the only point I was trying to make,

It's relevant because you're trying to use definitions to determine what is and is not allowed, and that's quite frankly not how the rules work.

Without strict definitions, laws and rules are subject to interpretation. Accepting the fact that I am repeating myself, please explain the alternative way of determining the rules as I am getting utterly lost in here.

3rd party software is not relevant at all, Sure botting is achieved by using 3rd party software, that doesn’t mean the usage of 3rd party software equals botting.

A cracked windows 10 is technically catagorized as 3rd party, this doesn’t mean your are forbidden to play.

MPQ editing tools for wow models, 3rd party too.

What's disturbing about it? Who says a moderator should be neutral? You? I've seen plenty of forums, including Wowhead and MMO-Champion, that have moderators that actively partake in community discussions and express their opinions and views. I fail to see why a moderator shouldn't be allowed to do that, unless people really do have THAT MUCH difficulty being able to read.

Correct me if i’m wrong but a product is being offered here. I highly doubt those topics you are mentioning on wowhead or MMO-Champion had their mods stating opinons for facts on their own product. You witnessed 1-2 unprofessional mods on other forums, does this mean this anecdotal evidence should be the norm?

She quoted me by calling out a “weak argument”. An argument that is actually fact. unless moderators are allowed to change the very definition of a term like botting.

On top of that she trolled me and insulted me afterwards for contradicting this opinion.

A quote from Cambridge dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...lish/moderator

MODERATOR: "someone who controls and leads a discussion between a group of people, but does not take any side in it:"

To avoid confusion here: I'm not trying to twist any of the new formed rules concerning multiboxing limitation, I think they are fine and I've already embraced them.