WotLK [Guide] PvE Holy Paladin 3.3.5

[Shaterhand]

About your jjoke with Reginal we can make online discussion right now to see who is gf to who?

Uhhh, I struck a sensitive spot, didn't I ? - I'm really sorry about it, that was not my intention. xD

It's fine, I don't think voice chat is really needed. Nevertheless, I don't think I really want to talk to a TTS robot anyway, if you get what I mean, wink, wink :D

But hey, you are right about that one, we should stop with this childish play. I don't know about you, but I personally have better things to do with my time.
Don't you have some farming to do in that dead game, Diablo 3, wasn't it ? Also, in regards to your time, I need to thank you for taking time off from your probably very busy social life, to write all these messages. They help keeping the guide active and makes it easier for players to find it. So, a big thank you for that, I really appreciate it mate, seriously xD. But from now on, I will have to leave you alone, as I will be busy and I want to dedicate my free time for other people as well. BUT HEY, if you have nothing better else to do, you can keep posting 20 pages in Word messages about your theories, that no one in their right mind will waste their precious time reading them, as myself I couldn't read more than 2 lines from these messages, but at least It will help the guide to remain active.

Have a nice day! :D

[Shaterhand]

I already explained it. Fest 25hc pants give you more int, haste and sp passively. The hit is an added bonus for when you judgement. It also influences auto-attacks that you can do between casts and NOT put yourself in a 1.5s gcd. I honestly don't know if this is hard for you or my English is poor.



Again, I never stated this in all my posts. I don't know why you continue to bring this up.



Yeah, it is optimal since in all those cases, as I've mentioned above, you can auto instead of judgement in those windows.

Now is just an added bonus ? Mkay then....

I don't agree that the amount of haste/intell outweighs the amount of crit that you lose for it. So let's agree, that we disagree and leave like that, as I don't think discussing this any further will result in anything else than wasting time.

"You can auto instead of judgement in those windows" - Hmmmmmm, this is very interesting, because even if you do auto-attack instead of judgeing, you still lose time not pre-casting holy light and your tank can die literally in less than 2 seconds from full HP, on fights like Halion/LK, which was kinda your main problem behind your arguments. But anyway, lets leave this point as well as it is, we won't probably agree with this either.

P.S.

You can multi-task by auto-attacking and using your judge at the same time, for these windows, how about that ?
(you can auto-attack only if there no mechanic that doesn't favors you being in the melee range, while or close to these windows. I dunno, such as defile, maybe you don't want to be in melee range before that happens, so you can place it nicely if its on you, just saying) - A reason why I don't advise on relying on making your mana from auto-attacks, only if its really the last thing you can do.

[vsetoq]

It's fine, I don't think voice chat is really needed. Nevertheless, I don't think I really want to talk to a TTS robot anyway, if you get what I mean, wink, wink :D

No I really don't get what you mean. You know not everyone can be a romanian guy like you with perfect English accent :) What was "wink,wink"???

I don't know about you, but I personally have better things to do with my time...Also, in regards to your time, I need to thank you for taking time off from your probably very busy social life, to write all these messages.

The fact that you return and replay to each comment leads me to think that you probably really don't have what to do with your time as well? Touch? 1:0? :)

Don't you have some farming to do in that dead game, Diablo 3, wasn't it ?

Dead? May be but still it has thousands time more playerbase than Warmane ever had. What to tell you mate I'm trying to fill my free time with something which is not connected with persons like you. And believe me there are alot on Warmane. :)

But from now on, I will have to leave you alone, as I will be busy and I want to dedicate my free time for other people as well.

Are you sure? So you won't respond to this comment? Finally to say something smart.

BUT HEY, if you have nothing better else to do, you can keep posting 20 pages in Word messages about your theories

Dunno but for each my comment i got respond by you which means that in that regard we are equally. Finally in something to be equal to me. :D
I thought you had something better to do?!

that no one in their right mind will waste their precious time reading them, but at least It will help the guide to remain active.

Well the thing is that you keep reading them for some reason probably cause you get more and more mad, again for dunno what reason.

[Beanlord]

"You can auto instead of judgement in those windows" - Hmmmmmm, this is very interesting, because even if you do auto-attack instead of judgeing, you still lose time not pre-casting holy light and your tank can die literally in less than 2 seconds from full HP, on fights like Halion/LK, which was kinda your main problem behind your arguments. But anyway, lets leave this point as well as it is, we won't probably agree with this either.

Sure, yet the context was specifically about the free windows as you call them. The hit from pants will also help you there and autos are preferrable to judgement since they do not invoke a gcd. I don't think there's any argument you have against this, but I see that you aren't inclined to take the feedback either.

[Shaterhand]

@Beanlord

I dunno about not being inclined to take feedback, as the first edits that I made where because of your feedback actually, regarding that I not mentioned how the scaling of SS works, not saying that divine shield/hop removes the redirected damage from sacrifice and I also made it clear when to judge. I listen to feedback and I act upon, when it makes sense.

If a guy decides tomorrow to write that strength gems are actually bis for hpally, you think I will change my guide because of him ? :D

I'm not afraid to say that I'm wrong, I give people credits when credits are worth, nevertheless when the person is actually respectful and speaks in a mature manner. I really enjoyed talking with you and I hope I didn't came across as too aggressive with some of my points.

Being arrogant and having a big ego is counter productive in discussions, no one likes an arrogant person and when you keep acting like one, you will eventually lose even your friends. It's why Mr. Teamstars loses friends every month and keeps spamming Reginal with messages, because Reginal is a very nice guy and can't really say no to anything.

[Freddybaby]

Good guide bro, keep going ^^

oh lord xiddan is here. the guy who went around posting screenshots of his 27mil healing on LoD bc lk skada bugged and the guy who runs full haste and thinks meters are god. same guy who deleted his haste guide on here when it got exposed.

xid, you are better than most players. ill give you that. but you know jack about theorycrafting which is why you removed your guide. please do not come here and comment about a class you yourself clearly have shown in the past you cant theorycraft.

at least even shatered knows meters mean nothing and hes open to criticism. you still think they mean everything and refuse any idea that exposes your full haste build. we dont need that. like ever.

[vsetoq]

@Beanlord

I dunno about not being inclined to take feedback, as the first edits that I made where because of your feedback actually, regarding that I not mentioned how the scaling of SS works, not saying that divine shield/hop removes the redirected damage from sacrifice and I also made it clear when to judge. I listen to feedback and I act upon, when it makes sense.

If a guy decides tomorrow to write that strength gems are actually bis for hpally, you think I will change my guide because of him ? :D

I'm not afraid to say that I'm wrong, I give people credits when credits are worth, nevertheless when the person is actually respectful and speaks in mature manner. I really enjoyed talking with you and I hope didn't come across as too aggressive with some of my points.

Being arrogant and having a big ego is counter productive in discussions, no one likes an arrogant person and when you keep acting like one, you will eventually lose even your friends. It's why Mr. Teamstars loses friends every month and keeps spamming Reginal with messages, because Reginal is a very nice guy and can't really say no to anything.

I thought you had something irl to do? For your information I didn't hear with Reginal from months but yesterday and just because he did type me on discord. Dunno why you even mess and mention him after he has nothing to do with this thread? I have long years experience and practicing with him to even mess with the things between us related to the game. The fact that you did start with arrogant part is not my problem. Me and Beanloard practically told you what's wrong with your guide although you continue to argue for a facts which everyone could tell they are wrong. And on top of that now you say

"I'm not afraid to say that I'm wrong, I give people credits when credits are worth, nevertheless when the person is actually respectful and speaks in mature manner. I really enjoyed talking with you and I hope didn't come across as too aggressive with some of my points."

The true fact is that you don't think seriously what did you type cause you are acting exactly opposite. You are afraid that you are wrong and even more to say it. You are just such a person. So again save me this ala bala - sh*t words and be a man one time staying behind your words and mind and say it.
In the end who are you to tell me how many friends I have and how many I lost or gain? You should ask yourself this question before to judge someone. I'm intelligent person who speak with intelligent persons. You are acting like kid and speak like kid assuming your arguments till now. Since there are many of them on Wamrane probably you have more auditorium to communicate with.

[Freddybaby]

i just want to know where you are getting 5-6 free globals on LoD to cast judge per min.

there is no RNG here, this comes with experience, knowing when to judge, without risking anything), which means roughly 5-6 judges per min.When you judge that often, you don't really give a dam if you miss 1 more judge than a person with legs would.

that part to me it just plain absurd and is the total opposite of

My build focuses on relying less on others

as thats exactly what you are doing in that case. so at least reply and explain where at lod are you getting this free time to do 5-6 judges per min. show me a video if you have to. i promise you, there is no way that is possible until maybe phase 3 outside FMC where, like i said previously, at that point its already a kill in any normal lod farm guild. It has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with RNG. my mind is legit blown that you cannot grasp that concept alone above all others. even the JoL and imp LoH parts are pretty inexcuseable but even more so is this theory that RNG plays no factor and you have time to judge 5-6 times per min bc there is nothing to heal.

[Shaterhand]

i just want to know where you are getting 5-6 free globals on LoD to cast judge per min. that part to me it just plain absurd and is the total opposite of as thats exactly what you are doing in that case. so at least reply and explain where at lod are you getting this free time to do 5-6 judges per min. show me a video if you have to. i promise you, there is no way that is possible until maybe phase 3 outside FMC where, like i said previously, at that point its already a kill in any normal lod farm guild. It has nothing to do with experience and everything to do with RNG. my mind is legit blown that you cannot grasp that concept alone above all others. even the JoL and imp LoH parts are pretty inexcuseable but even more so is this theory that RNG plays no factor and you have time to judge 5-6 times per min bc there is nothing to heal.

5-6 times is the desired number in general, but like I said earlier, it depends on many factors how many judges you can actually do through-out the whole fight, also per min. Now, you mentioned a specific case, yeah, it is a bit hard to achieve that number on LoD. I don't count how many judges I do per min every time I play but feel free to check my YouTube video kills if you want to see how often I judge. That was the whole idea of the previous debate, the point that I was trying to get across is to judge as often as you can, during safe windows to do so.

[Freddybaby]

the point that I was trying to get across is to judge as often as you can, during safe windows to do so.

thats perfectly fine you would also try to do that if you only had to do it once a min as well with better hit rating its more feasible that you will only have to do it once per min. Lets be clear here as well, im not saying you wont ever have to judge im simply saying that it is a much better option to run PSP and judge once every min (assuming it hits ofc) and to have lower RNG chance to miss vs the crit gain and a loss in hit rating which increases the chance to miss and thus plays more into more RNG factors, as even beanlord pointed out the crit gain is a minimal gain at best considering what you are giving up.

5-6 times is the desired number in general, but like I said earlier, it depends on many factors how many judges you can actually do through-out the whole fight, also per min. Now, you mentioned a specific case, yeah, it is a bit hard to achieve that number on LoD.

wehre are you getting time to judge 5-6per min in PP, BQL, fester ect? its just not LoD. LoD is the most extreme example since it is the hardest fight in icc. again as you said

My build focuses on relying less on others

but in giving up the hit rating you are actually relying more so on healers if you hit bad RNG which is a much higher chance without PSP on. Id rather play with RNG less to a point where im not giving up too much elsewhere which is where the legs again come into play. I just cannot see the gains in crit which are small outweighing the benefits in saving yourself GCDs. at least you could show the difference into the guide at most i wouldent even advocate for not using PSP in the guide.

also as some of us have said before imp loh is the way to go by far. imp conc should never even be considered that def needs changed in the guide.

[Shaterhand]

Spoiler: Show

thats perfectly fine you would also try to do that if you only had to do it once a min as well with better hit rating its more feasible that you will only have to do it once per min. Lets be clear here as well, im not saying you wont ever have to judge im simply saying that it is a much better option to run PSP and judge once every min (assuming it hits ofc) and to have lower RNG chance to miss vs the crit gain and a loss in hit rating which increases the chance to miss and thus plays more into more RNG factors, as even beanlord pointed out the crit gain is a minimal gain at best considering what you are giving up.

wehre are you getting time to judge 5-6per min in PP, BQL, fester ect? its just not LoD. LoD is the most extreme example since it is the hardest fight in icc. again as you said but in giving up the hit rating you are actually relying more so on healers if you hit bad RNG which is a much higher chance without PSP on. Id rather play with RNG less to a point where im not giving up too much elsewhere which is where the legs again come into play. I just cannot see the gains in crit which are small outweighing the benefits in saving yourself GCDs. at least you could show the difference into the guide at most i wouldent even advocate for not using PSP in the guide.

also as some of us have said before imp loh is the way to go by far. imp conc should never even be considered that def needs changed in the guide.

I don't understand the confusion about imp conc and imp lay.

If you check the talent section you will see that I marked both of them with Blue, which means that they are situational, so therefor, I explained both of them, what they do and when they should be considered. Basically its up the player's decision when he should take them, considering many factors.
Shortly, imp lay should be mostly considered during progression, if your tank is under geared, if you are solo healing or healing with fewer healers than standard or for various challenges (I used it when solo healed LoD and when I attempted the duo heal solo tank LoD no buff). So in other words, I personally wouldn't take if the content that your doing doesn't fall under any of these categories, if all that you are doing is farming LoD with your guild, with standard comps. It is an unreliable CD to have, even with 11min CD, especially for fights that don't last that long. What do I mean by that is if you wipe once and during that wipe you had to use Lay for a certain point of the fight, chances are that you are not going to have lay up again for that hard point during the next try. I've managed to heal even some under geared tanks without having imp lay during Halion and LoD.

EDIT: To answer the RNG part of JoL on CD.
There is no RNG on it and here is why:

Is your judgement is up and available -> Yes -> is it safe to use it ? -> Yes -> You can use it -> Go back to beginning
               -> No -> Go back    -> No -> Don't use it -> Go back to beginning

If you used it and your tank or someone else died as a result of it or if you had to use an unplanned cd to avoid that, then you haven't used judgement correctly, during a good window, which means, that is the player's mistake.

[Freddybaby]

I don't understand the confusion about imp conc and imp lay.

clearly one is hot garbage one is not. like beanlord told you, imp conc is basically useless in comparison to imp loh. i cant even believe we are having this duscussion honestly. id rather have it and not use it than have some useless imp conc. plain and simple. it shouldent even be an option in the guide to use imp conc as its basically useless again as beanlord said above and gave you the reasons why.

To answer the RNG part of JoL on CD. There is no RNG on it and here is why

first off i thought we already tlaked about how hpals using jol is a dumb idea. are we still debating this? i hope its been made clear by now why thats not a good idea. There IS more RNG when not using PSP and here is why yet again:

you have less chance to miss with more hit

again according to you

there is no RNG here, this comes with experience, knowing when to judge, without risking anything), which means roughly 5-6 judges per min.When you judge that often, you don't really give a dam if you miss 1 more judge than a person with legs would.

first off you are assuming the person with PSP is missing a lot and thus is playing into some bad RNG vs you with a ton less hit playing with even more RNG. also as i said earlier there is no reason why you want to judge 5-6 tiems per min on lod and as you agreed thats really dumb on lk. it is also dumb on other fights. i mean to me and many others it seems this makes perfect sense to run PSP over not as again the crit gain is not as good vs the stat gains you get with PSP and the hit which will lower your RNG with judge. i just dont see how you are going to die on this hill of an argument when its clear as day as to why thats not optimal to run without PSP.

[Shaterhand]

Spoiler: Show

clearly one is hot garbage one is not. like beanlord told you, imp conc is basically useless in comparison to imp loh. i cant even believe we are having this duscussion honestly. id rather have it and not use it than have some useless imp conc. plain and simple. it shouldent even be an option in the guide to use imp conc as its basically useless again as beanlord said above and gave you the reasons why.

first off i thought we already tlaked about how hpals using jol is a dumb idea. are we still debating this? i hope its been made clear by now why thats not a good idea. There IS more RNG when not using PSP and here is why yet again:

you have less chance to miss with more hit

again according to you

first off you are assuming the person with PSP is missing a lot and thus is playing into some bad RNG vs you with a ton less hit playing with even more RNG. also as i said earlier there is no reason why you want to judge 5-6 tiems per min on lod and as you agreed thats really dumb on lk. it is also dumb on other fights. i mean to me and many others it seems this makes perfect sense to run PSP over not as again the crit gain is not as good vs the stat gains you get with PSP and the hit which will lower your RNG with judge. i just dont see how you are going to die on this hill of an argument when its clear as day as to why thats not optimal to run without PSP.

Thank for your feedback, I will look into it.

Kind Regards

[Freddybaby]

there is no RNG here, this comes with experience, knowing when to judge, without risking anything), which means roughly 5-6 judges per min.When you judge that often, you don't really give a dam if you miss 1 more judge than a person with legs would.

ummmm lots to breakdown here:

lets start with the contradictions you yourself said in the guide:

ok again JoL is pointless on hpal. you can judge other things as its more beneficial for prot/ret to do it regaredless if prot even has divinity or not since they can for sure keep 100% uptime on it and JoL DOES NOT scale with anything from hpal. This is not 2 years ago when it was broke. so that for sure needs changed in the guide. As Beanlord said already

Here's the thing, you can give up jol duty to someone that does it in their rotation anyway and each time you would've otherwise judged and put yourself in a 1.5s GCD you can instead AA for a chance at 4% mana return from SoW. It is more optimal in terms of gameplay and is a point you cannot argue.

the only reason hpalas use JoL is to pad meters. This has been well known for a while now and its a reason why high end guilds that have brains dont let their hpals do it.

but lets talk about judging real quick again, unless you are tracking swing timers (which you dont) its going to put you into a GCD which will prevent you from healing when its needed most. now even you agreed with me that using judge 5-6 times per min on LoD is a bad idea. yet here we can clearly see in the logs that you are judging at a terrible time. Now you are on GCD and SR just hit the tank.

you said above that a tank can die in 2 seconds yet the GCD that judges puts you in is 1.5 you are limited by this and cannot start another cast until this GCD is over. Now look at the first pic i linked.

thats legit relying on others to cover for you as ive been saying to you. right there is proof in your own logs showing you are relying on others to cover for you.

not to mention you did a poor job of

there is no RNG here, this comes with experience, knowing when to judge, without risking anything

your exact words just contradicted your own logs. Again you are now on GCD with SR hitting the tank right after. So all that talk about experience and knowing when to judge without risk just got blown out of the water. You clearly dont know when to judge and clearly that experience you said you have means nothing.

i really do hope you take this and learn from it and change the guide as we could use a decent guide but again as i have said before, this guide needs some fixes and as good as you are im not saying you are some total garbage hpal but you clearly have not done the proper theorycrafting here and clearly have room for improvement even in your own play as the wol SS shows.

[Shaterhand]

If you used it and your tank or someone else died as a result of it or if you had to use an unplanned cd to avoid that, then you haven't used judgement correctly, during a good window, which means, that is the player's mistake.

There is nothing inconsistent in what I said, read that last part again.

Your picture means that I judge at a wrong time, which is my fault, I failed to appreciate that is was not a safe window to judge, nothing more :)

We all do mistakes from time to time, we are only humans, in case you forgot. There is no one on this server that can be considered a top end player and hasn't done any mistakes since he started playing, or that we will never do them again even once he became a very skilled player. Sure, depending on who you ask, they might tell you that they perfect and sh*t, but they do mistakes too, even if don't want to admit it, and as soon as they do something wrong, they usually rage like apes.
There is no shame in committing a mistake from time to time. Even the most skilled players from Retail do mistakes occasionally, people who play the game + 10 hours per day, or more, and are making a living out of it. Fatigue, stress and other factors, they all play a role when it comes to mistakes, so it is very easy to point out someone's flaw, when you don't know what happened.

And for your information, I judge as often as I can, even when I'm solo healing, which means that in this specific scenario, there is no one to back me up if I'm doing something terribly wrong.

EDIT: Also, for the things that you underlined, as you can see I used the word "almost", which you can interpret anyway you want, but it for sure means that it is not 100% of the time, so in other words, it gives you room, so to say, to do more than that.