WotLK Brainstorming a new playstyle for pve feral cat. [DISCUSSION THREAD]

**Kovachut** · November 25, 2023

OGRE PINATA PRE-PULL ROTATION
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)

Disclaimer: Look, I suspect that some users are already aware of the http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 and its possible applications in raids, but since there isn't a dedicated post concerning feral cats, I decided to write my thoughts here.

Thank you, Nap, for informing me about this item back in 2022.

I. Preface

Last year, when I worked on "Nuances in feral cat's gameplay", I observed the scenario when a person has CPs on a mob while SR is inactive during an idle period. Since we usually cast GotVV in those cases (e.g. Frostmourne chamber on LoD, waiting for BQL to land after the flight phases etc) and since SR doesn't consume the CC proc, I considered that it would be beneficial to refresh this finisher one second prior to jumping onto the boss again.

However, this doesn't narrow down only to idle periods in general. Let's take OS 3D for example. I know that in Classic VVrath players zerged the boss right from the get-go, but back on Frostmourne my guild used to kill the whelps one by one. Because of this, my RL told us to be idle at start until the first drake landed and then to burst it down. I, however, always disregarded that call. I preferred to attack the main boss for CPs which I used on SR right before the drake arrived. In order not to lose the procs of my trinkets, I swapped them during the 10-second pull timer (like, it takes 30 seconds for the first drake to swoop down), so I didn't hinder myself by playing like this.

The same effect can be achieved in ICC and potentially in RS with the help of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780.

II. General overview

(0:01 summoning the pinata; 0:17 - attacking it for CPs; 0:19 - 1:03 waiting for the trinkets' ICD to end; 1:03 engaging the boss)

(0:03 summoning the pinata; 0:29 - attacking it for CPs; 2:20 attacking the dummy with SR; 3:05 the pinata despawned)

(can be used in ICC)

(0:05 Claw -> running away didn't remove the aggro; 0:34 re-entering the dungeon allowed me to keep the CPs and healed the pinata; 1:03 - Lacerate for 5/5 Agile)

(outside of a raid instance, it behaves like a normal mob, i.e. you lose aggro after leaving its aggro range)

(resists the Mind Control effect of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506)

(0:47 can help us obtain http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060 from http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725)

Observations:
- since the item is a "toy", it has infinite uses;
- 30-min CD;
- it can be used in raids;
- it can be used indoors;
- it doesn't despawn when the boss is engaged;
- 5.3k HP;
- it despawns automatically 3 mins after being summoned;
- it puts us in combat until it's killed or it despawns;
- the summoned pinata is marked as "mechanical", but it's not affected by http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 despite what this wowhead commenter said. Ye, the item's tooltip is correct on warmane;
- despite http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506p not mentioning a level restriction, it seems that this trinket is too weak for the lvl 80 pinata;
- summoning the pinata in a raid instance and trying to run away won't remove the aggro. Ye, I was aware of this behaviour from the start, but I wasn't sure whether it would also affect mobs, who were recently summoned in the raid instance.

Pros:
- can be used to help us generate CPs for SR before pulling the boss;
-> this not only allows us to begin with a buffed Mangle and AAs, but it also spares us potential energy, which can be used on Shred in the long run;
-> since SR would be active at start, we can apply Rip sooner;
-> it also allows us to get more value from STS since we're no longer required to refresh SR during its duration;
- can help us reach 5/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=71175 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=61896.
- if we have http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725, the chicken can also attack it and buff us with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060 more consistently.
- it lasts long enough to be present during DBS's and LK's RP events;
- can potentially help other raid members as well (e.g. combat rogues);
- can be placed by someone else, and you can still benefit from the effect.

Cons:
- it's not obtainable through normal means. One needs to purchase it from the store for 15 coins;
- it has a rather small HP pool and can easily be killed (especially by your fellow raid members);
- attacking it puts us in combat, which we cannot leave unless we kill the pinata or re-enter the raid instance;
-> not killing the pinata prematurely would prevent us from using two Haste pots in a boss fight;
-> other raid members can become annoyed if they enter combat as well (imagine someone buffs you, and they cannot eat Fish Feast or wtv);
- can proc our trinkets;
- [S P E C U L A T I O N!] in case the warmane staff doesn't approve the pinata's usage in raids, the item might be restricted in raid instances.

Commentary:
If we start a boss fight with SR already present, then our Mangle and first two AAs (assuming 0.7 attack speed) would be buffed, so we don't suffer any penalties from investing CP-generators in favour of this finisher. Instead, we go straight for Rip and refresh it two seconds earlier, which allows us to get an additional bleed tick. Compare:

Mangle -> SR -> Rake -> Shred -> Shred -> Rip

vs

Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip

Another argument in favour of this play is the preserved energy, which we would most likely invest in Shred. Let's imagine a 3-min fight, where we also use SR with 5 CPs (let's stick with this just for the sake of simplicity). If we don't summon the pinata and cast SR pre-pull, we need to cast SR six times:

0:01 - 0:20 (first SR from Mangle) -> 0:21 - 0:55 (second SR) -> 0:56 - 1:30 (third SR) -> 1:31 - 2:05 (fourth SR) -> 2:06 - 2:40 (fifth SR) -> 2:41 - 3:00 (sixth SR)

If we pre-cast SR with 5 CPs, let's say we start the fight with 30-seconds duration. In that case, we will only cast five SRs during the actual boss encounter, which would allow us to preserve 25 energy:

0:31 - 1:05 (first SR) -> 1:06 - 1:40 (second SR) -> 1:41 - 2:15 (third SR) -> 2:16 - 2:50 (fourth SR) -> 2:51 - 3:00 (fifth SR)

There's another benefit of having something to attack prior to the boss, which I didn't realise earlier. You see, if a person has http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725, he needs to activate it 45 seconds before the boss encounter begins, so that his STS can be active during the burst phase. As a result, this shortens the chicken's "life expectancy" by that much. Having something to attack earlier keeps the chicken occupied, which can increase the likelihood of us obtaining http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about the possibility of us starting with 220 Agility from the get-go. If we use Lacerate once, it will be at its weakest state. Unlike Rake, which can inflict a lot of damage, 1-stack Lacerate would only "bruise" the pinata. VVith 220 Agility being present from start, we can immediately snapshot Rake and Rip with it. Compare:

{only SR is used pre-pull} Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip (everything up to this point has 0/5 Agile)

vs

{SR and Lacerate are used pre-pull} Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip (everything up to this point has 5/5 Agile)

Now, let's discuss the negatives. VVhen attacking the pinata, we inevitably proc our trinkets. As you already know, STS's ICD lasts 45 seconds, whereas DBVV's - 105. For that reason, the most optimal timing for the pinata is when we are passive for at least 100+ seconds. VVhile it's not impossible to imagine that a RL would set a 2-min pull timer before every boss, in reality no one would wait for us to get value out of the pinata. Knowing this, we can expect to use it mostly on DBS and on the LK because they have an RP event at start. On theory, it should also be possible to use the pinata in RS. Even if the pull timer is, say, 30 seconds, people usually need more time to prepare before the fight begins. VVe could place the pinata near the edges of Halion's arena right after killing the General, claw it for some CPs, leave the instance and re-enter it. As long as the raid engages the boss in less than 3 mins after us summoning the toy, we can safely gain CPs from it.

Another negative aspect of this play is entering combat and not being able to leave it unless the pinata is destroyed. This is bad when the person also wants to pre-pot with the Haste potion. In order to circumvent it, the feral player needs to kill the pinata 5-10 seconds prior to engaging the boss, which would shorten SR's duration a bit (btw, this also concerns the case with RS if you want to gain 5/5 Agile procs because you need to use Lacerate 15-28 seconds before the fight starts).

Even then, the biggest dealbreaker for this theorycraft is imho the second counter-argument. I'll go off-topic for a bit and share a story of my earlier raiding days with <Storm>. Since the guild hadn't killed Halion 25 on HC back in 2019, we were rly trying hard to get the tactics right and to squeeze in as much damage as possible. There was a demolock, who used the http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=44844 to summon a turkey and get the SP buff from his pet demon. NGL, it was hilarious to kill the critter just to ruin that guy's mood. But, ye, this is my point - don't expect people to respect your pre-ogrener tactic. They will grieve you for ****s and giggles, especially if they're fed up with entering combat whenever they buff you.

One last thing. The following is my personal speculation, but I can imagine that the warmane devs restrict the pinata's usage in raids if they don't approve its combat applications there. Should such change be implemented, it would be justified and I'd like to explain why. Let's go off-topic once again and talk about the infamous world buffs in Vanilla VVoVV. From what I've heard, the devs had desired people to get some "cool" buffs while leveling. VVhat ended up happening (at least, years after Vanilla's release) was that players went to collect the world buffs before every single raid lock-out for optimal performance, which was not anticipated by the devs. However, there's a difference between creating a buff/item which directly enhances combat stats and a vanity buff/item, which also happens to have niche combat usages. My point is that http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 has pure cosmetic value, and if the warmane devs want to preserve it like this, they can rightfully do it. If someone purchases the pinata for 15 coins, and the item ends up being "nerfed", please don't lash out on the staff. Understand the potential risks and buy it with this outcome in mind.

III. An alternative approach (NOTHING VVORKS)

Up until today (28.11.2023), I thought that an alternative approach of getting CPs before the start of the fight would be going to the nearest faction city, attacking a target dummy and waiting for a summon from a warlock. Unfortunately, that doesn't work as you can see in these videos:

(I lost the SR buff after leaving the old continent)

(I lost the SR buff after entering ICC)

However, as I'm updating this post I found a different solution in the form of another mech - http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113:

As you can see, despite the bot being able to repair my items, I was able to attack it and gain CPs. This is not an exploit or a bug, since according to wowhead this NPC is neutral:

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/npc=24...-110g#comments

{08.01.2024} As I'm updating this post, I regret to inform you all that the 110G is no longer attackable:

IV. Actual theorycrafting

Let's ignore all non-gameplay-related counter-arguments I've listed above and concentrate on how to use the pinata optimally. Since it has 5.3k HP, we need to use the weakest CP-generator in our arsenal, which would get us to 5 CPs but not kill the pinata. This ability is actually:

http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=1082

Using anything else would do more damage and even kill it. I can't believe I'm saying this, but for optimal pinata pre-pull rotation one needs to have Claw at rank 1. If that's not possible (which, I expect, for most of us won't be the case, and we can't downgrade it believe me, I tried), then you need to be ALMOST naked when clawing the pinata, which will prevent your AAs from killing the pinata (if one AA inflicts 3k damage, you'd hardly get 1-2 CPs from attacking the pinata). The only items you need to wear are the trinkets. The reason for this will become clear later. Since you'd enter combat after attacking the pinata, you won't be able to equip your items until you leave this state. For that reason, you need to kill it prematurely. If you are completely naked, you'd kill the pinata, say, 5 seconds before engaging the boss, and then you'd equip your gear. However, as a result you'd also trigger the ICDs of your trinkets. In other words, they will be inactive during the burst phase. This is why you need to have them equipped before summoning the pinata.

If what I wrote above sounds a bit confusing, here's my idea with fewer words in a chronologial sequence:

0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Summon the pinata.
3) Equip your "naked" set.
4) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
5) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
6) Kill the pinata.
7) Equip your items.
8) GotVV.
9) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.

Yeah, there's a lot of **** to do, so I don't expect this idea to catch on. Btw, this regards the situation when you don't have http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725. If you have the chicken, and you want to benefit from everything, then this is what you now need to do:

0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Equip the chicken.
3) 45 seconds prior to engaging the boss, you need to activate the chicken's effect and equip STS.
4) Summon the pinata.
5) Equip your "naked" set.
6) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
7) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
8) Kill the pinata.
9) Equip your items.
10) GotVV.
11) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.

Such an amazing pre-pull sequence, amirit? Just imagine for a bit how someone pranks you by ninja pulling the boss whilst you being naked. VVhat do we even get from all of this? VVell...

(no trinket procs)

- buffed Mangle at start = 10,467.97 (2,597.32 damage gain)
- 2 buffed AAs at start = 6,728.28 (1,669.42 damage gain)
- extra Rip tick = 4,984.65 (4,984.65 damage gain)
- 25 preserved energy = Shred*25/42 = 15449.57*25/42 (9,196.17 damage gain)

Damage gain so far: 18,447.56 or around 100 dps in a 3-min fight

Gz to the winner, I suppose. /s

It gets even "better" if you want to use http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48568 for 220 Agility at start:

0) You need to create two equipment sets. The first should consist of your current gear, whereas the second - nothing but your trinkets.
1) During the 100-second pull-timer, you need to swap your trinkets.
2) Equip the chicken.
3) 45 seconds prior to engaging the boss, you need to activate the chicken's effect and equip STS.
4) Summon the pinata.
5) Equip your "naked" set.
6) Use Claw until you get to 5 CPs.
7) Use Lacerate 20-25 seconds before the boss encounter begins.
8) 5-10 seconds before the boss fight begins, cast SR.
9) Kill the pinata.
10) Equip your items.
11) GotVV.
12) Haste pot 1-sec pre-pull.

Absolute ****ing masterpiece. /s

Anyway, knowing that we need to kill the pinata prematurely, let's say we do so 10 seconds prior to the boss fight which would earn us 24 seconds of SR uptime. Imho, killing the pinata around 10 seconds prior to the pull would give the player enough time to collect his thoughts, to re-equip his gear, to cast GotVV and to pre-pot with the Haste potion in peace. From there onwards, depending on how many CCs the person obtains during Berserk he might decide to squeeze in a FB or just refresh SR.

In the following lines, I will observe the energy amount for both the TF-Berserk and Berserk-TF openers:

TF-Berserk

(0 CCs during Berserk)

Spoiler: Show

(1 CC during Berserk)

Spoiler: Show

(2 CCs during Berserk w/o FB)

Spoiler: Show

(2 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)

Spoiler: Show

comparing 2 CCs w/o Berserk vs w/ it

Spoiler: Show

(3 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)

Spoiler: Show

Commentary:
For the TF-Berserk opener, the only reason why there's no FB with 0 or 1 CCs is due to the fact that SR's and Rip's durations expire shortly after Berserk. Under normal circumstances, this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, but the absence of TF makes generating CPs in that short time frame quite challenging. Not even the GotVV-shift would be able to justify FB with 18-24 energy. That's why the sole FB needs to be cast mid-Berserk, which is only possible in the presence of at least 2 CCs. Then, again, I feel like I need to bring up an alternative solution. In the past, I read somewhere in the old EJ forums that Berserk is best used when both SR and Rip are about to expire. Yes, from a pure energy- and CP-management standpoint, it would be better to delay Berserk by, say, 10 seconds. The sequence in that case would look like so:

(The trinkets got swapped at 0:54, which was the reason why I didn't have their procs at start. I didn't realise it yday.)

0) GotW + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [75 energy]
3) Shred [43 energy]
4) Rip [33 energy]
5) TF + Shred [61 energy]
6) Shred [30 energy]
7) GotVV [45 energy {instant cast spells last 1.5 seconds by default; for the sake of simplicity, I ignored spell haste}
8) Cat form [60 energy] {cat form lasts 1.5 seconds by default and is not affected by spell haste in general}
9) Shred with the CC [70 energy] //Rake expires after the GCD btw
10) Berserk [80 energy] 14 seconds remaining of Berserk //Rake is inactive for one second
11) Rake [72 energy] 13 seconds remaining of Berserk
12) Shred [61 energy] 12 seconds remaining of Berserk
13) Shred [50 energy] 11 seconds remaining of Berserk
14) Shred [39 energy] 10 seconds remaining of Berserk
15) Shred [28 energy] 9 seconds remaining of Berserk
16) Shred [17 energy] 8 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [21 energy] 7.6 seconds remaining of Berserk
17) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 6.6 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [13 energy] 6.3 seconds remaining of Berserk //by this point, SR's remaining duration is 5-6 seconds
18) SR [10 energy from GCD] 5.3 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait a bit [18 energy from GCD] 4.5 seconds remaining of Berserk //Rake expires in the meantime btw
19) Rake [10 energy from GCD] 3.5 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait around 1 sec [21 energy] 2.4 seconds remaining of Berserk
20) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 1.4 seconds remaining of Berserk
wait around 1 sec [21 energy] 0.3 seconds remaining of Berserk
21) Shred //Berserk expires immediately afterwards
22) Rip

The advantages of this play are:

It allows us to get more value out of TF while still casting it at the start;
VVe will be able to generate the needed CPs for both SR and Rip on time.

However, this still has a lot issues:

Between 7) and 8), there's a 3-second idle time, where we pool energy. Casting GotVV and Cat form wastes a bit of STS value and with that - Hysteria value as well.
There's still no opportunity to squeeze in a FB in Berserk unless the player acquires a lot of CCs from AAs and from Barkskin.
Bad synergy with the GotVV-shift feat. idol swapping.
A lot of unexpected **** can happen between 5) and 10), i.e. RNG will decide which abilities we'd actually use prior to Berserk and/or how long we would delay our big CD.

Let's address the negatives one by one:

In the past, I considered swapping out STS, in order to delay its ICD by a bit. VVhile this approach may work with the majority of yellow abilities during Berserk, it would definitely fail to buff Rip since it's cast at the very end. STS at start is just obligatory because we get to snapshot two Rakes and Rip. Same thing goes to DBVV and Hysteria, which can buff two Rips. Delaying those would result in us snapshotting only one Rip, which would be detrimental to our dps.
Although we're a lot more productive with our CPs during Berserk, we still cannot afford to cast FB because we would need the CPs for the other two finishers. That is unless we get 2+ CCs during Berserk, in which case we can bite the boss prior to SR. However, there's an issue with this play - we would be entirely dependant on RNG to provide us with the necessary amount of CCs. Like, let's compare TF-Berserk feat. the pre-pull rotation to what we're used to, i.e. unbuffed Mangle at start -> SR ->... -> Rip + refresh on SR during Berserk:

Since in the normal rotation we apply Rip at the beginning of Berserk, we have plenty of time to monitor the number of CCs from our AAs and to decide whether we should follow it up with SR or with FB. In the pre-pull rotation, we don't have that opportunity. The only optimal timing for FB is at the start, and we don't know whether RNG would bless us with 2+ CCs down the line, so it's a HUUUUUUUUGE gamble to cast FB.
Since we cast only one GotVV prior to Berserk, we cannot afford to swap idols. Idol of the Crying Moon needs to be present during Berserk, so that we don't lose the 220 Agility buff. This means that the only "viable" flowershifting variation is the one with /stopattack. I'd like to mention that a person could theoretically begin the fight with VVorship (like, imagine getting 220 Agility prior to engaging the boss and equipping Idol of VVorship), which he would then swap back to Crying Moon, but that requires a lot of micromanagement non-sense and is affected by my next argument:
Despite what I wrote above, how we'll actually play depends on what RNG has in store for us between 5) and 10). It could give us a CC when we're planning to use TF, in which case we wouldn't follow it up with GotVV because we'd have too much energy. VVe'd need to go Shred w/ the CC -> Shred -> TF + Shred -> GotVV, which would leave us with less energy prior to Berserk and force us to stay idle for longer. This, by itself, would increase the second Rake's downtime and waste more STS & Hysteria value. In other words, delaying Berserk just for the sake of having an early TF would lead to unreliable/inconsistent openers.

Berserk-TF

(0 CCs during Berserk)

Spoiler: Show

(1 CC during Berserk)

Spoiler: Show

(2 CCs during Berserk)

Spoiler: Show

(3 CCs during Berserk w/o FB)

Spoiler: Show

(3 CCs during Berserk w/ FB)

Spoiler: Show

comparing 3 CCs w/o Berserk vs w/ it

Spoiler: Show

Commentary:
On the other side of the spectrum, Berserk-TF is able to include FB even in the presence of 0-1 CC all thanks to TF after Berserk. Moreover, the player has time to monitor the number of his CCs. If he gets at least 3, FB mid-Berserk is possible, and a there's also the possibility to cast one extra 2-3 seconds before Berserk ends with 18-24 energy (though, admittedly, that excludes the outcome of the player getting more CCs from AAs and/or energy from a resto druid; if the timing of Berserk is suboptimal for a second bite, you can always refresh SR instead). Since the cat player uses Berserk after the first Rake, i.e. there's no idle time, the opener offers consistency in the context of the pre-pull rotation.

Imho TF-Berserk is still a viable option, but only when the player can obtain an additional TF throughout the course of the boss fight.

**Kovachut** · December 9, 2023

ONE'S MAN'S TRASH IS ANOTHER MAN'S TREASURE

Thank you, mep2481, for informing me about Crystal Yield.

I. Preface

This post was inspired by these videos:

Huge props to that guy for recording himself and for discussing weird items/interactions (like, the first video I watched from his channel was about the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725 being able to cast the Squawk more consistently under certain conditions - something which is not true on warmane, but still an interesting video nevertheless). I won't cover all of his topics, rather just the ones I found interesting.

II. AP increase from Crystal of Ferocity & Scourgebane Draught

- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=23989 (10 AP increase for Alliance cats)
- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22779 (30 AP increase for Horde cats but only against undead)

As you can see here, I used a cheap Battle Elixir, and the 30 AP buff didn't overwrite it. Just for comparison:

ICC and RS gear w/o those buffs:

VVith 10 extra AP (~10 dps increase):

VVith 30 extra AP against undead (~30 dps increase):

Ye, it's not much, but it's free, i.e. it doesn't require a specific set-up. The bad thing about this item, at least https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22779, is that you need to collect a lot of https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=22641 - 10 for ONLY ONE CONSUMABLE. The good news are that they can be sold on the AH, but as I'm writing this post one 10-stack cost almost 200g. Yikes. The good thing is that the zone "Ghostlands" is filled with undead mobs that drop the quest items:

Faction swapping might allow the player to get both AP buffs on one character, but FYI one-way faction change costs 30 points which is around a whole month of collecting daily points. I'm not willing to test it, sorry.

III. Swing timer reset from Oil of Immolation

https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=8956 doesn't reset the swing timer:

Pity. I had an idea that we could use it alongside the GotVV-shift as an alternative way to reset our swing timer after attacking with Oathbinder in case we don't want to remove the Crying Moon idol. However, it seems that this interaction is only possible in Classic VVrath - just like the Snakeweaving one. So, in other words only weapon/idol swapping can reset the swing timer on warmane. Though, the oil does trigger a long GCD, which is imho the bigger reason why no one should use it in a raid.

IV. Eskhandar's Claws

I won't test this because https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=18202 drops from a world boss, which is easily contested, and feral druids cannot dual-wield fists. Anyway, Simonize mentioned the possibility of summoning https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=14306 which could presumably reduce the boss's armour for 1600 for a short period of time (12 seconds). The challenge is to actually summon it because it has 1% chance to pop-up from a critical strike. Despite being fully aware of how unlikely it is to summon it and suspecting that no one will actually do it, I'd like to mention that this would have had nice synergies with the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=34113 idea in the previous post. Imagine having a shaman or a rogue attack the mech and being able to summon the Spirit. Since it would last for 2 mins, it would survive the majority of the boss fight. Ah, a man can only dream.

Btw, speaking of armour reduction, I tested https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=11565 a few months ago because mep2481 recommended it to me. It shares the same CD as a regular Saronite bomb, but it can provide more damage. According to Simonize, it offered 0.6% damage increase. On its own, it doesn't sound big but if we observe the AA damage for one minute and assume 0.7 att speed and 3500 damage from AAs, then the damage increase would be:

(60/0.7)*3500*0.006 = 1800

This is more than what we would get from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41119. According to the feral simcraft, using this would increase the cat's dps by around 50:

Saronite bomb instead of Crystal Yield in a 2-min fight:

Crystal Yield instead of Saronite bomb in a 2-min fight:

However, this wasn't the reason for bringing up this item here. I just wanted to make a smooth transition to what I'm about to say next. Since I didn't have the opportunity to talk about it in previous posts, I want to mention something I've noticed in the past:

Please go to 0:23-0:25. The buff missed because it's based on spell-hit:

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=15235

Keep this in mind if you want to use it. Also, this:

0:33-0:35 The crystal yield debuff vanished. Dunno if it was my bad UI playing tricks on me or if someone else tried to cast this debuff, but examining this weird interaction is on my to-do list.

**Flereous** · December 9, 2023

This crystal is usable in solo scenarios, but the moment you have stronger effect, like sunder it shouldn't be any longer usable (and if you can do it, then it's a bug) - "a more powerful spell is active"

**Kovachut** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Flereous

This crystal is usable in solo scenarios, but the moment you have stronger effect, like sunder it shouldn't be any longer usable (and if you can do it, then it's a bug) - "a more powerful spell is active"

Thanks for the feedback, however it was stated that Crystal Yield CAN stack with armour% reducing effects, since https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=15235 removes a flat amount of armour from the boss. This interaction was tested by another warmane user, who informed me about it in the first place. He told me that he and his fwar buddy had tested it on a dummy, and Sunder Armour was able to stack with Crystal Yield.

You can also see it in the video above. Check 2:35. You can see both FFF and Sunder being present.

**Flereous** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Kovachut

Thanks for the feedback, however it was stated that Crystal Yield CAN stack with armour% reducing effects, since https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=15235 removes a flat amount of armour from the boss. This interaction was tested by another warmane user, who informed me about it in the first place. He told me that he and his fwar buddy had tested it on a dummy, and Sunder Armour was able to stack with Crystal Yield.

You can also see it in the video above. Check 2:35. You can see both FFF and Sunder being present.

Then it's simply a bug here which should be reported and fixed, quite similar to how the scrolls are being overwritten when you get stronger class buff on yourself and they are no longer usable - "a more powerful spell is active"

(Patch 2.4.1)
Cannot be used on mobs with a level 70 sunder/devastate on them "a more powerful spell is active"

I can provide you a ton bug reports on github projects, where it was mentioned and fixed, but I don't think it's wise to link such stuff here, since they're related to other servers.

The patch note/comment is directly from wowhead, so yeah.

**Kovachut** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Flereous

Then it's simply a bug here which should be reported and fixed, quite similar to how the scrolls are being overwritten when you get stronger class buff on yourself and they are no longer usable - "a more powerful spell is active"

(Patch 2.4.1)
Cannot be used on mobs with a level 70 sunder/devastate on them "a more powerful spell is active"

I can provide you a ton bug reports on github projects, where it was mentioned and fixed, but I don't think it's wise to link such stuff here, since they're related to other servers.

The patch note/comment is directly from wowhead, so yeah.

Quite the contrary. If you have proof that this interaction wasn't possible in Retail VVotlk (2008-2010), then please share the links here or DM me. I'd gladly make a bug report if this interaction was indeed not possible in the original game.

If, however, you have bug reports concerning other private servers, then the bug report might not be considered valid.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up this topic. I'll look more into it the following days!

**Flereous** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Kovachut

Quite the contrary. If you have proof that this interaction wasn't possible in Retail VVotlk (2008-2010), then please share the links here or DM me. I'd gladly make a bug report if this interaction was indeed not possible in the original game.

If, however, you have bug reports concerning other private servers, then the bug report might not be considered valid.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up this topic. I'll look more into it the following days!

By ameelia (5,634 – 3·18·48) on 2008/06/17 (Patch 2.4.1)
Cannot be used on mobs with a level 70 sunder/devastate on them "a more powerful spell is active"
Nope, doesnt stack with any armor dmg. Im a warrior so it was really disappointing to discover it's worthless compared to sunder armor. And since sunder armor wont even stack with other warrior's unless they have same rank, this item is worthless imo.

And so

It doesn't have to be exactly wotlk report, earlier patches would work as well, because the logic behind such overwrites never changes. It's simply missing for this exact debuff here and it's normal, because we're not talking about item/effect everybody will use on daily basis so it's normal to forget it

**Kovachut** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Flereous

By ameelia (5,634 – 3·18·48) on 2008/06/17 (Patch 2.4.1)
Cannot be used on mobs with a level 70 sunder/devastate on them "a more powerful spell is active"
Nope, doesnt stack with any armor dmg. Im a warrior so it was really disappointing to discover it's worthless compared to sunder armor. And since sunder armor wont even stack with other warrior's unless they have same rank, this item is worthless imo.

And so

Quick question if I may?

Doesn't https://tbc.cavernoftime.com/spell=11597 also remove a flat amount of armour in TBC?

I think we need to consider the context of the time, when that comment was written. According to wowhead:

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=11597/sunder-armor

Sunder Armour removed a flat amount in TBC, and of course it would overwrite Crystal Yield. However, in VVotLK it reduces the armour by certain%, so those two things are mechanically different. So, no, I don't think it's a bug, but I'll test the interaction once again and see if Sunder Armour is able to stack with Crystal Yield. Just a bit busy rn. Thanks for giving me food for thought!

**Flereous** · December 9, 2023

Originally Posted by Kovachut

Quick question if I may?

Doesn't https://tbc.cavernoftime.com/spell=11597 also remove a flat amount of armour in TBC?

I think we need to consider the context of the time, when that comment was written. According to wowhead:

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=11597/sunder-armor

Sunder Armour removed a flat amount in TBC, and of course it would overwrite Crystal Yield. However, in VVotLK it reduces the armour by certain%, so those two things are mechanically different. So, no, I don't think it's a bug, but I'll test the interaction once again and see if Sunder Armour is able to stack with Crystal Yield. Just a bit busy rn. Thanks for giving me food for thought!

FF is flat armor reduction as well in TBC, but they DO stack. The same way FF and Sunder effects stack on WotLK, both being Resistance % (Physical) auras. I don't know what the exact logic behind the stacking and/or overwriting effects is and it's not my job to know that, but my guess is that it's something related to the spell' flags which prioritizes the sunder effect over crystal'. Or the effect can just simply fall into the category of major armor reduction debuffs and not being overwritten / taken into accountant when such "upgrade" happens here which makes more sense to me;
Minor: FF / Sting / CoW
Major: AS (BM) / Expose Armor / Sunder Armor

Only dev who's familiar how things work in the background can tell you who's right, but that's a bug for sure. And not a new one, since there is 2017 Fury guide here, encouraging you to use the same crystal.

I'm off for tonight, will check the thread tomorrow and hopefully be able to do it from my main forum account (it's currently 2FA locked..meh)

**Kovachut** · December 9, 2023

FF is flat armor reduction as well in TBC, but they DO stack. The same way FF and Sunder effects stack on WotLK, both being Resistance % (Physical) auras.

Good point.

Or the effect can just simply fall into the category of major armor reduction debuffs and not being overwritten / taken into accountant when such "upgrade" happens here which makes more sense to me;
Minor: FF / Sting / CoW
Major: AS (BM) / Expose Armor / Sunder Armor

Honestly, this is an interesting interpretation.

And not a new one, since there is 2017 Fury guide here, encouraging you to use the same crystal.

I think I found a similar thread:

Originally Posted by phaerys

So, today i made the tests on raid boss for the stackings.
Character with 1418 armor pen (so 100% arpen) , berserker stance (no influence of battle stance, if was still bugged like someone said long time ago)
Character is a warrior, BT means Bloodthirst, a spell who is related by only attack power, not weapon swing.

naxxramas anub rekan 10 men :
Farie fire + 5 sunder : BT hit for 2514.
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + shattering thow + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514
Faerie fire + 5 sunder + crystal yield : BT hit for 2514
[snip]
Conclusion :
When have 100% arpen, you already ignore all the armor of the boss if there is the 20% debuff (sunder, rogue) and the faerie fire (5%) on it.
You don't need the shattering throw on lordaeron to reach max damages. Crystal yield is useless too.

On a previous test, Crystal yield still reduce the armor when there is only sunder x5 (like 0.9 - 1% damages increase)

Source: https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...=298787&page=2

The users commented how the armour constant was bugged, which also made stuff like Shattering Throw useless. There was a bug report, which fixed the armour constants, which is mby the reason why Crystal Yield can now stack with both Sunder and FFF {I want to test it for myself too}.

I don't know what the exact logic behind the stacking and/or overwriting effects is and it's not my job to know that, but my guess is that it's something related to the spell' flags which prioritizes the sunder effect over crystal'.

Only dev who's familiar how things work in the background can tell you who's right, but that's a bug for me.

Really thanks for your input, but I am not really convinced that this is a bug. Had there been VVotLK patch notes or user comments on wowhead from that era confirming that both effects cannot stack, I would have agreed with you. If you want to report it as a bug, I'd honestly encourage you to do it. I'm thinking of checking some old EJ threads. Hopefully, I might find some discussions there.

**Kovachut** · December 10, 2023

Ok, in case someone is curious, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=11565 does stack with FFF and Sunder Armour:

First 30 seconds w/o Crystal Yield
- Lacerate (initial attack, non-crit) = 141
- Lacerate (initial attack, crit) = 290

Remaining seconds w/ Crystal Yield
- Lacerate (initial attack, non-crit) = 142
- Lacerate (initial attack, crit) = 292

If we look at the bonus crit damage, the number is 2. VVe can observe it as a 0.7% damage increase, which is on par with what I said a few posts above.

The reason why I decided to use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48568 is because its damage is based on our AP, i.e. it deals binary damage. All Arp-related* cat abilities produce damage from a specific FRAME, which wouldn't have showed clear tendencies had I used one of them instead.

Inb4 someone comes here and tells me that Lacerate is a bleed - the second effect is, but the initial attack is not considered a bleed.

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48568

So, now I just need to find more information as to why the debuff vanished during the DBS fight at 0:33-0:35:

This will be my task when I start raiding again.

No mention of Crystal Yield in these feral druid threads:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101108..._dps_rotation/
https://web.archive.org/web/20110101...ps_discussion/

**Kovachut** · December 12, 2023

Originally Posted by Kovachut

OGRE PINATA PRE-PULL ROTATION

FOLLOVV-UP POST
(VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)

Please ignore this post since there isn't anything worth reading here imho (or mby someone could find the second section somewhat interesting). Most of the conclusions here are "it's not practical", "it doesn't work", and "it's unreliable". I just wanted to write another comment, so that I don't shove too much information in the original post and make it more complicated and reader-unfriendly than it needs to be. The contents of this post are mostly for me, so that I can reference specific mechanics/interactions in the future. kthx

Speaking of not working, the 110G is no longer attackable. Yeah...

I. More experiments with the 110G repair bot (NO LONGER VVORKS)

One thing I forgot to test on the 110G was whether or not it's affected by https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506. The answer is - it IS:

Rooting the mech

Successful Mind Control

Can be healed

Observations:
- the 110 bot can be Mind Controlled thanks to https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506:
-> this allows us to heal it with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 and with regular HoTs;
-> direct healing effects like the one from Healing Touch and Regrowth don't work;
-> the person controlling the mech still enters combat.
- the person healing the bot doesn't enter combat AS LONG AS he doesn't buff/heal the Mind Controller.

Pros:
- Using https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 can heal the mech, allowing it to soak more damage;
- This allows the players to use the same mech and not invest extra resources in summoning another one;
-> https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47828 is really cheap, and some players will sell it cheaper than the cost of the individual mats.

Cons:
- Since the Mind Controlling player enters combat, he can only swap out https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506 after the mech dies.
- The Mind Control effect is not guaranteed.

Commentary:
If you ask me, the observed interaction between the 110G bot, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506, and healing effects is pure meme and not in the funny way.

The problem comes from the fact that even when the mech is mind controlled, the player still enters combat which prevents him from unequipping https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=7506. This is bad because he will be able to remove this ****ty trinket only after the 110G bot dies, which would happen 5-10 seconds before the boss encounter begins. If the player wants to re-equip his actual trinket with a 45-sec ICD, it will be inactive during the burst phase (= he will be at a disadvantage).

VVorth mentioning is that there is a possible workaround - if the Mind Controller in question is a NE (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=62199) or a hunter (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=5384), then during the "invisibility" frames he can equip back his normal trinket. However, this requires a lot of set-up for a minor gain, since a simpler solution would be to just summon another mech. This coupled with the fact that the MC is not guaranteed makes this manoeuvre absolutely pointless.

II. Another potential alternative

VVhile searching for an alternative to both the pinata and the 110G mechs, I remembered that warlocks could summon a hostile demon "Doomguard" from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867 that could be attacked by everyone. This inspired me to test the mechanics surrounding the aforementioned spell and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540. Here are my personal findings:

Doomguard from Ritual of Doom

Dismissing it

CoD not working on pets

Doomguard from Curse of Doom and banishing it

Attacking it for CPs

Enslaving it and testing its "life expectency"

Enslaving it and running far away from its initial summoning spot OUTSIDE A RAID INSTANCE

Enslaving it and running far away from its initial summoning spot IN A RAID INSTANCE

Enslaving it and trying to enter a raid instance

Enslaving it and using the teleporter in ICC

Entering a diff. zone with the enslaved Doomguard

Travelling in the same zone with the enslaved Doomguard

Spoiler: Show

Observations:
- the Doomguard summoned from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540 is always considered a pet and immediately despawns once the warlock dismisses it;
- https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47867 summons a Doomguard only when the spell is used on a 72+lvl mob, and the latter dies from the debuff;
- CoD cannot be used on player pets;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD is always hostile;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD will despawn within 15 seconds when out of combat (this includes time spent while evading as well);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD doesn't lose aggro if the warlock travels long distances VVITHIN A RAID INSTANCE;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can live for at least 20 mins (I didn't bother to test it longer than that);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD has around 16k HP;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD will break free from the warlock's grasp if the warlock enters a raid instance/goes to a different zone;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can bleed and thus can be a good target for our "Lacerate & Crying Moon" combo;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be banished, but that doesn't remove the person's aggro;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be enslaved, and that does remove the person's aggro. The warlock can then dismiss it, allowing him and his teammates to attack it;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be enslaved and BUFFED/HEALED from teammates. If the warlock player dismisses it, the demon retains those effects;
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD can be DoT'ted and enslaved immediately afterwards. The demon retains those negative effects. Also, Dooming the Doomguard is possible (It's possible, but it doesn't serve any purpose.);
- the Doomguard summoned from CoD doesn't teleport to the warlock's location if the player uses one of the ICC teleports.

Pros in comparison to the Pinata:
- using Doomguard as a punching bag is the cheapest alternative, as it doesn't cost any resources (Some warlocks might complain about having to spend soul shards every time they enslave the Doomguard and then re-summon their regular pet, but we shouldn't pay attention to cross-dressers.);
- unlike the pinata, its original HP is 16k and can even be buffed while enslaved, so that it can soak more damage. On top of that, people can put HoTs on the demon and give it a shield before the warlock dismisses it.

Cons in comparison to the Pinata:
- solo players/minmaxers cannot summon the Doomguard by themselves - if they want to benefit from this "punching bag" variant, their raid group needs to be involved in the process;
- fulfilling the CoD's summoning condition requires a set-up to begin with. The warlock needs to use the spell on an already existing mob in order to summon the Doomguard;
-> the raid group needs to pay extra attention to the mob's HP, so that it doesn't die prematurely from unwanted abilities;
-> after a wipe, there's no redo in case players have cleared the trash prior to the current boss.
- Ferals and rogues cannot use the Doomguard the same way they use the Pinata in RS (i.e. attacking the mech and leaving the instance in order to lose all of your aggro) because the Doomguard will disappear when out of combat for 15 seconds.

Commentary:
It's really unfortunate that https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=18540 doesn't summon a hostile Doomguard like it did at the end of TBC:

This would have been the best way to generate a pre-pull punching bag, as it would have required the least amount of resources to summon the Doomguard, and the requirements for summoning it could easily have been met. Oh well...

Anyway, right now the only way to summon an attackable Doomguard is by fulfilling the condition of CoD. This is easier said than done, as most of the mobs in a raid instance are elites with huge chunks of HP. If all raid members are tasked to clear the trash, other people's DoTs/AoE abilities might prevent CoD from doing its thing. That said, there is an obvious workaround for that as well. You see, if people just smack a random mob with normal attacks and drop its HP low enough, so that CoD could finish it off, I can definitely see how Doomguard could be summoned more consistently. Since CoD has a 1-min duration, it would just take a bit longer than usual to kill the targeted mob, but it won't prolong the whole raid by THAT much.

Then again, we need to ask ourselves whom this playstyle would actually benefit? It's definitely not going to be used in speed runs or in casual raids for obvious reasons. I think that in progression raids people might find summoning the Doomguard and the whole pre-pull rotation too much of a hassle and would feel discouraged to adapt it in their runs after a few fail attempts. This leaves us with hardcore guilds where people care about parsing. Even then, I wonder if this manoeuvre would be considered convenient enough in order to become a staple in a grun. This is why I consider it theoretically possible but in reality impractical/situational.

For the sake of this theorycraft, let's assume that the warlock does manage to summon the Doomguard. That player then needs to enslave it, which would cost them a Soul Shard. This, however, allows the players to reposition the Doomguard whenever and wherever they want w/o having to deal with aggro issues in the process, so they can bring it prior to a boss and eat/drink/buff themselves in peace. During the pull timer, the warlock just needs to dismiss it and resummon his regular pet. This, of course, would cost them another Soul Shard, but those shards are free and can be generated with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=47855 anyway.

Basically, here's how people can use the Doomguard:

1) Choose a mob to be a host for a Doomguard.
2) Have a warlock (or all warlocks???) put CoD on it.
3) Lower its HP in range of CoD's damage, but don't kill it.
-> Don't put DoTs in order to ensure the host's safety.
4) VVhen the host pops, make sure not to kill the Doomguard.
5) A warlock casts Enslave Demon on it.
6) Kill the trash prior to your current boss and eat/drink/buff yourselves.
7) Set a pull timer and swap your trinkets. Acknowledge their ICDs.
8) The warlock controlling the Doomguard needs to dismiss it. Afterwards, he can summon his usual demon again.
9) Slowly attack the Doomguard and get as much value from it as possible.
10) 5-10 seconds before the pull timer ends, kill it.
11) 1 second prior to engaging the boss, pre-pot with Potion of Speed or wtv.
12) Engage the boss.
13) Repeat for the next boss encounter.

"Kova, wouldn't it be easier to just attack a random mob before a boss pull?"

I suspect that someone has already asked themselves this question, to which I will say "Yes and no". You see, it really depends on the type of trash prior to a boss fight. For example, you can easily treat https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=37038 or https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/npc=37023 as punching bags before engaging Fester/Rot/PP because they are solitary NPCs and don't present any danger to the tank. The whole group just needs to eat, drink, and set an early pull timer, during which players swap trinkets, kill the aforementioned mobs, and quickly move in and engage the respective boss. In other scenarios, having something to summon like a Doomguard would be a better option in case:

a) there aren't any trash mobs prior to the boss or are already killed before the boss arrives (DBS, Sindragosa);
b) the nearest mobs are far away (Algalon);
c) the mobs are in packs and cannot be separated w/o pulling everything (Ignis, XT, General Vezax);
d) the mobs are too strong and cannot be used as ordinary punching bags (Sentinels prior to Auriaya, Faceless mobs near General Vezax)

"Kova, could there be another cheap alternative to the Pinata beside the Doomguard?"

I sincerely hope so, but I personally couldn't find anything. Like, I visited the following wowhead sites:

https://www.wowhead.com/classic/items
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/items
https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/items

and used the database tool to search for items with the Effect Text "summon", "place", "call":

but most of them either summoned a friendly "guardian" or the summoning condition for a hostile mob required the player to be in a specific area. There were two items I found with no clear mention of a such requirement in their tooltips - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=38324 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=30479 - but they still didn't work. VVorth mentioning is that https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=27388 can summon a hostile mob as well, but for obvious reasons (2-day CD, the effect is based on RNG) it's not a good substitute for the Doomguard.

III. Swapping out weapons with temporary buffs while dps-ing the punching bag

I got inspiration to try out weapons with "Chance on hit" effects after stumbling upon this interesting specimen https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=13393. Before I say anything else, I'd like to clarify that weapons with this mechanic don't work in feral forms - if a druid player wants to benefit from them, he needs to be in neutral form. Unfortunately, even with this knowledge I smacked target dummies and low-level mobs with the Malon mace to no avail. The weapon didn't proc at all. I thought it might be bugged, so I bought https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=9423 from the AH and decided to test whether swapping out weapons with "Chance on hit" proc effects would allow me to retain both buffs. The answer is:

Nope, it doesn't work. I assume I would have witnessed the same interaction with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=13393 had I managed to get its proc. Tbh, I was aware of this being the case for https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=9449, but since the latter mace has an "on-use" effect, I thought I should test the behaviour of "Chance on hit" weapons as well. Then I remembered another interesting interaction, which Nap brought to my attention last year. Swapping out weapons with different enchantments (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=43987 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=44493) would possibly allow the player to have both at the same time. I tested it myself, and:

It worked. So, on theory we could dps the Pinata/the Doomguard with a weapon having the Black Magic enchant, get the "250 Haste rating" buff, kill the punching bag, swap to our regular weapon with Berserking and engage the boss. However, I consider this manoeuvre non-viable because BM's duration is too short to actually matter especially if the punching bag is killed 10 seconds prior to the player engaging the boss. In this train of thought I should mention that it's also possible to get two Berserking buffs at start if we use some random weapon containing this enchantment and switch to Oathbinder afterwards:

I still don't think it's worth the hassle because if we get the first Berserking 10 seconds before we actually engage the boss, then it would only have 5 seconds duration during the burst phase, which is not rly exciting. Something, which I did find interesting, was that DKs can use a weapon with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=53341 while attacking the punching bag, which would allow them to keep it for later. Since that buff lasts 30 seconds, I definitely see a reason why someone would consider this trick. Once they obtain it, they can revert to their main weapons with the BiS runes:

But enough with the off-topic subjects - after all, isn't this supposed to be a cat-related thread? There's one more thing I'd like to discuss before I end this post:

IV. Another attempt at figuring out TF-Berserk

Last month, I proposed the following opener for TF-Berserk:

0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [65 energy + 10 from GCD]
3) Shred [33 energy + 10 from GCD]
4) Rip [23 energy + 10 from GCD] 21 sec Rip
5) TF + Berserk [100 energy] 14 seconds remaining 20 sec Rip
6) Shred [89 energy] 13 seconds remaining
7) Shred [78 energy] 12 seconds remaining
8) Shred [67 energy] 11 seconds remaining
9) Shred [56 energy] 10 seconds remaining
10) Shred [45 energy] 9 seconds remaining
11) Rake [37 energy] 8 seconds remaining
12) Shred [26 energy] 7 seconds remaining
13) Shred [15 energy] 6 seconds remaining
14) SR [12 energy] 5 seconds remaining
wait almost 1 second 4.1 seconds remaining
15) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 3.1 seconds remaining
wait around 1 second 2 seconds remaining
16) Shred [10 energy from GCD] 1 second remaining

// 21-15 = 6 seconds remaining of Rip duration after Berserk
=> Rake after Berserk + mby a GotVV for guaranteed 5 CPs -> Rip
//24 - 13 = 11 seconds remaining of SR duration when it's refreshed at 14)

I considered this safer than the version with the slightly delayed Berserk because I looked at STS's uptime as the main factor. However, this made me oblivious to the possibility of being able to gather CPs for FB after (4) Rip, which would allow the player to compensate the lost value from STS. Because of this, I'll acknowledge it here. I came up with these three variations:

TF is used right before Berserk (Var. A)

Spoiler: Show

TF is used after Rip followed by a GotVV-shift into Rake (Var. B)

Spoiler: Show

TF is used after Rip followed by a GotVV-shift into Shred (Var. C)

Spoiler: Show

Before I discuss them in more detail, I want to set the background:

(My current gear with full buffs and no DBVV and STS procs)

- Shred (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 18,114.38
- Shred (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 1,624.3

- 5CP FB (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 33,064.73
- 5CPs (value based on 5CP FB minus 35/42 Shred dmg) = 17,969.41
- 5CP FB (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 3,051.36

- 4CP FB (average, with Hysteria but no STS) = 26,787.71
- 4CPs (value based on 4CP FB minus 35/42 Shred dmg) = 11,692.39
- 4CP FB (extra STS damage with Hysteria, average) = 2,441.1

- Rake (one tick, average, no Hysteria and no STS) = 5,876.09

- AA (average, ONLY STS damage enhanced by Hysteria) = 538.87

If we assume that the Berserk phases consist of the same amount and type of abilities across all aforementioned versions of the TF-Berserk opener, and there's no downtime for Rip and SR, then we can view every wasted second of STS as potential 1,624.3 damage loss. If we choose to delay Berserk in order to cast FB after the initial Rip, then we would inevitably have to be idle and passively AA the boss, so that we pool enough energy for Berserk. However, by casting FB we would utilise our CPs which would normally have been wasted (check the first TF-Berserk sequence in this section). This means we can compare the damage loss from the wasted STS proc with the damage gain from the CPs that were used on FB. If the player performs the GotVV-shift, I'll assume two AAs are sacrificed in the process. I'm not going to take into account the damage loss of the AAs themselves, rather only the wasted STS buff with Hysteria.

Now, let's go back to each variation and acknowledge the damage loss from STS. To make things a bit easier, I'll assume that the cat player gets a CC proc within the first 6 seconds. Tbh, this is not impossible taking into consideration all haste buffs and Bloodlust. Moreover, the cat player can use Barkskin and increase the likelihood of obtaining said proc.

Var. A

Spoiler: Show

Var. B

Spoiler: Show

Var. C

Spoiler: Show

Commentary:
I think I should start with the obvious things and cover the headscratchers as I go.

Delaying Berserk past the 15th second mark is a misplay in boss encounters like DBS because we waste DBVV and Hysteria uptime (Var. C). Even if using a CC proc on a Rake whilst having 0-1 CPs is usually a misplay, in Var. B this is the lesser evil. This allows the player to continue pooling energy for Berserk while maintaining Rake's uptime.

Another obvious thing is that Var. A is very similar to my initial idea, aka:

0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle [100 energy]
2) Rake [65 energy + 10 from GCD]
3) Shred [33 energy + 10 from GCD]
4) Rip [23 energy + 10 from GCD] 21 sec Rip
5) TF + Berserk [100 energy] 14 seconds remaining 20 sec Rip

Both variations pop TF right before Berserk. Imho, deciding between both of them depends on whether or not the player obtains a CC proc at start and is able to generate 4 CPs for FB. If he doesn't, and he wants to play it safe, or he doesn't want to perform the GotVV-shift, he can follow the aforementioned pattern. If he does manage to get a CC and 4 CPs, he can transition to Var. A.

Comparing Var. A to Var. B is a bit tricky because the latter has the possibility to inflict a FB at the end of Berserk but is very susceptible to RNG prior to popping the big CD. Any sudden CCs can disrupt the player's plans and force him to delay the GotVV-shift or even ignore it. The latter is not a bad thing per se, as long as the CC is used on Rake, but let's say the player gets a CC proc right after FB. Is he going to hold onto it just for Rake and risk overwriting the CC from a "lucky" AA? No, he would use it on Shred and then follow it up with Rake, in which he'd invest energy and thus inevitably recreate the same scenario as in Var. C.

This is why imho when it comes to TF-Berserk in the context of a pre-pull Pinata, the opener should either look like this:

0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle
2) Rake
3) Shred
4) Rip
5) TF + Berserk

or this:

0) GotVV + SR
1) Mangle
2) Rake
3) Shred
4) Rip
5) Shred
6) Shred
7) FB
8) TF+ Berserk

depending on the person's luck at start.

I'd like to point out once again just how elegant and reliable Berserk-TF really is. It doesn't create any problems and instead offers solutions when SR and Rip are synced after Berserk. Imho, TF-Berserk would be more suitable for Classic VVrath with the FFF glyph.

**Kovachut** · December 15, 2023

FINAL VVORDS?

It's August 2019, and I'm nostalgic for VVoVV. I join warmane and roll as a feral cat on Icecrown, determined to kill the LK and obtain the "Kingslayer" title. In October, I join <Storm>. I meet a lot of knowledgeable players that help me get firsthand experience in ICC HC. I try my best, though still do a couple of mistakes, from which a very loud Romanian girl gets annoyed. VVanting to perform better, I whisper to myself the tactics for each and every boss, but instead I sit there incapacitated, as she widens her mouth and starts screeching like a harpy: "VVHY DIDN'T YOU INNERVATE ME?" A few months later, I'm invited to the main group. VVe down Halion on HC for the first time, a giant milestone for the guild. VVe gather around and screenshot the moment. It is 24.01.2020 - I get my first LoD kill, and I'm not considered a VVoVV virgin anymore. Two months later, the accident awaits me. The guild declares its official retirement. A token raid is held. In it, the GM rage quits after multiple wipes from the frost orbs on the LK.

It is the 29th of March, 2020. Proterean announces the release of Frostmourne. As I join the realm, I begin to integrate spamming GotVV more frequently in my gameplay. One year later, I decide to publish this idea here. Some random bloke writes a post on discord. In it, he calls this thread autistic. I'm not sure if I know what he means.

It is August 2022, 1.5 months into Ulduar. My current guild <TFL> is faced with the challenging task to form a full run and resorts to pugging the remaining spots. As a result, the quality of the raid drops immensely. Seeing that people screw up the bombs on XT and even the defensive CDs on Iron Council despite an exploit, the GM bursts into intoxicating trash talking. After each inaudible swear word in Croatian, he spits out the gentler epithet "donkeys" - like a signature move. Classic VVrath releases, and my guild decides to move there, while I do not. I prefer the stillness here. I'm currently taking a break, but I might return ... some day...

Yeah, I'm taking a break from VVoVV for an indefinite amount of time... again... Back in September of 2023, I played for a bit with <Frenzied Flame>, and I honestly had fun reliving the old memories in ICC and RS. I could see myself returning once again because I've always enjoyed the 3.3.5 environment. Right now, I just prefer other games a lot more - like, when I return exhausted from work, a 25-man raid feels like yet another chore. I'm also taking a break from feral theorycrafting.

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