1. July 8, 2021  
    Hello, thank you for all of this theory-crafting, I won't add any useful information since I think you covered every topic on an impressive depth.

    This topic gave me lots of ideas on how to improve my weak aura suite which could help optimize the rotation/GotW usage in two ways :
    - see when the bleed ticks happens so it's possible to optimize the DoT clipping
    - see how "buffed" is a bleed on this model

    So I would like to have some information regarding this :

    Can you help me understand which buffs can be snapshoted ?
    I know it's all buffs that increase your damage in %, and your current critical strike chance. But after testing it seems that all buffs that increase the AP can be snapshoted, is this correct?
    Hi. Thanks for contributing in this thread! I'm glad that this topic gave you ideas on how to improve your VVA. :)

    Yes, it's correct that any increase of AP would enhance our Rake and Rip abilities, which means that any AP/Agility/Strength buff would work. This could be anything from "Berserking" (weapon enchantment), to Insane Strength Potion, to Deathbringer's VVill (strength/agility). Proof:

    https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49800
    https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48574#see-also
    (If you go to this post, you can check the formulas I provided for the aforementioned abilities in the spoiler. You can see how AP is mentioned there, and that's the variable quantity.)
    In case someone's sceptical about the formulas, I've provided some screenshots to illustrate the damage gain. Click on the spoiler:
    Spoiler: Show
    Rip (no additional bonuses) = (36+93*5+0.05*AP)*11*SR*Mangle*Naturalist
    Rip (-//-) = (AP*0.05+501)*20.9209
    Rip (-//-, crit) = (AP*0.05+501)*47.4067594
    My AP is 10722 with no buffs.
    Rip (full damage with only regular ticks) = 21697
    Rip (1 regular tick) = 21697:11=1972
    Rip (1 critical tick) = 1972*2*1.1*1.03=4468


    Don't pay attention to the Idol buff! It procced from Rip. For this small experiment, I just mangled the dummy.
    .
    .
    .
    STS hc, at least according to its tooltip, gives us 1472 AP, which becomes 1619 with Heart of the VVild.
    10722+1619=12341
    Rip (no critical ticks but buffed with STS hc) = 23390.8
    Rip (1 regular tick) = 23390.8:11=2126
    Rip (1 critical tick) = 2126*2*1.1*1.03=4817


    .
    .
    .
    If we add "Berserker" (440 AP with Heart of the VVild) on top of the STS hc buff, we will get:
    12341+440=12781
    Rip (no critical ticks but buffed with STS hc and Berserker) = 23850.87
    Rip (1 regular tick) = 23850:11=2168
    Rip (1 critical tick) = 2168*2*1.1*1.03=4913



    Admittedly, these numbers are slighly off - I guess the game rounds them down during some steps - but the damage is as close as it can get. So, the formulas are correct.
    Edited: September 11, 2021 Reason: adding some screenshots to prove that the formulas are correct

  2. Hi, great stuff really. I never brainstorm to this extent like you do with your calculations,
    but i love some good theorycrafting, especialy concerning feral druid - spec i exclusively
    main since i started playing World of Warcraft back in 2009.

    I always consider myself someone, who knows feral in and out,
    this class is a living example, that there is still something
    that might change the way we play it.

    GotW procing OoC is a great thing and a great tool for any feral druids (and not only feral).
    In my opinion every good feral druid should know how to abuse this, period.
    Before pull, during movement while not hitting a boss, while pooling energy..
    there are many examples on when it should be used.

    Coming back to your way of using GotW during the fights,
    I think it is a great way to utilise it even more, but I agree with you
    that it should be up to the player to decide whether to include this in their somehow
    complicated dps routine. I personally have been procing OoC with GotW midfight,
    during specific moments - mostly, when im low on energy. Im out of energy, for example
    after casting FB, then i GotW, get a clearcast and back into cat form with around 40-60 energy
    + Clearcast. For me that means i can get a 4cp Savage Roar withing 2 seconds back in Cat form.

    I think the value of using GotW does not lie only with the clearcast itself, but the potential CP we can gain,
    which then translates to more free FB, which translates to more dps, cause of course idealy,
    we want to have 100% rake and rip uptime, so there is no potential increase from "additional" rakes & rips.

    Learning something from your research, I will be definitely using stopattack macro for my GotW from now on.
    Thanks for taking your time, to research this stuff so extensively. Great Job!

  3. 1) Thanks, man! I'm glad that you enjoy it. Right now, I'm editing my old posts by adding the new information you see at the top of this page (i.e. the wall of text). I'll try to be as quick as possible, but it will take time.

    2) Yeah, I also agree that CPs have an additional value, and I tried to view it as 1/5 of our 5CP FB multiplied by the amount of CPs we usually gain from our Shreds.

    3) I still stand on my standpoint that everyone decides for themselves how they would approach this playstyle. Not everyone would feel comfortable taking risks or looking at addons that track their AA cooldown, and that's fine. That's the definition of a playstyle - it reflects our personal preferences, so I'm very glad to hear that you've found your own path.

    Good luck with your future raids and have fun!

  4. EXTRAS
    I. Certified

    As I've promised, here's Aldtharios' reply:

    It seems that this playstyle is not an exploit it all. You can all explore it without having any fear from a possible account suspension.
    II. Switching idols in Naxx/Uld

    Imagine that you possess "Idol of the Ravenous Beast" and "Idol of VVorship". It might seem obvious that we would gain damage by switching them either manually or with a macro, but that's bait! I've tested it multiple times, and I had encountered a delay, which prevented me from using my abilities immediately. This, on the other hand, led to me losing DoT ticks or CC procs. VVhat's the delay, I hear someone asking - it's 2 seconds (09/07/2022 Update: Switching idols triggers a 1.5-sec GCD and resets the swing timer). You can test it out for yourselves on a dummy. Just lower your energy to 40 or 50 and switch your current idol. You will see that you are able to attack with your special abilities after 20 energy. Since the penalty is huge, and the gain isn't that big, I stopped using it for months now, and I just resorted to my GotVV-shift.

    But irony has is - the answer was hidden in the GotVV-shift all along.

    You see, a few days ago I was inspired to make a GotVV-macro with an idol switching one, and it worked. Here's how:

    As you all know, I make sure that my energy is somewhat low before I do the manoeuvre. So, at around 30 energy I used this macro while attacking the dummy:

    /stopattack
    /cast Gift of the wild
    /equip {desired idol}

    And the only delay I encountered was the one from the GotVV-shift. In other words, the downtime from switching idols OVERLAPPED with the one from the shift, which allowed me to benefit from the new relic until I decided to change it.

    Disclaimer: I'm still not going to use it, because imho it's inpractical to have 2-3 (depending on your number of idols) macros just for switching the relics. Imho you would make a mistake and mess things up. At least, this is the case for me. I have limits, which I physically and mentally can't overcome (+ I don't want to either ^^). I'm leaving this piece of information here, in case someone wants to use it, and that person doesn't find it challenging to implement it in his gameplay. If that proves to be the case, then more power to him/her.
    III. Request for a favour

    1) Video footage
    Since it's officially certified, I'd like to ask the druid community for a small favour. I personally believe that this thread would improve greatly if someone shared a video of a boss encounter, where he/she used the GotVV-shift. It doesn't matter if that person is in a super hardcore guild or in a casual one. This playstyle is not restricted to a specific demographic, so if someone could provide me with such a video and gave me their permission to add it in my "Summary", I would give them the proper credit.

    2) Feedback
    Since this is a previously unexplored territory, I don't claim that everything I wrote here is correct, hence why I am not considering it as a guide but more like a discussion thread. I'm not a min-maxer, I don't record my games, and I don't create personal statistics. I just did some calculations based on my current knowledge. If you suspect that I have made a mistake somewhere, which ultimately would lead to new conclusions, please let me know. However, I would ask you to give me an objective opinion (i.e. supported with facts or math and not with personal feelings).
    IV. Author's Note

    Before someone asks, yes, the proposed playstyle is more than viable. It's actually very beneficial. However, I don't think that it's going to be used by everyone, because:

    a) some people wouldn't want to be bothered with doing more things on top of the already complex "rotation";
    b) some people wouldn't trust RNG, and they wouldn't want to take risks.

    That's fine! I don't expect this playstyle to become a new meta. It's the opposite, I would be glad if people took their time to read this thread and to think for themselves how they would approach it. VVould they reject it completely, or would they slowly integrate it in their gameplay? VVould they use it only when they desperately need energy, or would they spam the macro aggressively. Personally for me, this decision making brings me more joy in fights. Now feral cat's "rotation" becomes more dynamic, and I get to do more stuff than to wait patiently for my energy to pool.

    Once again, I want this to be a personal choice for everyone, and I'm just sharing how it should be executed. Have fun!
    Edited: September 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  5. PREDATOR'S SVVIFTNESS - ANOTHER RELIABLE VVAY TO FORCE CCs?
    (VVARNING - HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)

    Big thanks to Sand1dark for informing me about this trick on discord! Also, props to skullatbash, DarkenedHue, Septimun, and Bigpwn for their amazing work in the bugtracker!

    I. Backstory

    During the end of the Naxxramas patch, Sand1dark informed me about a trick he used while raiding. He told me that using Predator's Swiftness in combination with Regrowth would oftentimes lead to a CC proc. VVell, one day I decided to test his words, and I did exactly 200 attempts on the practice dummy where I generated CPs, used them on a finishing move, got the "Predator's Swiftness" proc, and used that one on Regrowth/Healing Touch. Out of all 200 attempts, only 113 led to a CC proc while all other 87 whiffed. So, based on this experiment I estimated a proc chance of 56.5%. This number wasn't as exciting as the values for GotVV in a 25-man raid, but it was still pretty high in comparison to a single 3.5/60 proc.

    However, despite me knowing this I decided not to post this on this thread. VVhy? That's because the interaction behaved very strangely, and since there was no indication that it should work that way, I considered it a bug and thus an EXPLOIT. Like, you can do yourselves a favour and check wowwiki, wowhead, and even wowpedia. You won't find any information about Predator's Swiftness enhancing the effect of Omen of Clarity in any of those sites. That said, last week I stumbled upon some interesting comments while browsing through the old EJ forums:
    At 62 procs out of 100 wraths it gives the impression that something funny is going on with omen proccing from the Pred Swiftness casts as that seems to be vastly higher than the chance of getting it from just standing there chain casting the spells.
    Originally Posted by Combatlog
    [20:20:53.866] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 628
    [20:20:54.618] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:20:54.618] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:20:55.702] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler Miss
    [20:20:55.914] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:20:56.298] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler Dodge

    [20:21:03.046] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2349*
    [20:21:03.563] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:21:03.563] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:21:03.955] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 867 (R: 85)
    [20:21:04.139] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:21:05.352] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2044*
    [20:21:05.546] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:21:07.120] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2138*

    [20:21:15.995] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 785
    [20:21:16.517] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:21:16.517] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:21:16.871] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 918
    [20:21:16.945] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:21:18.030] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:21:18.249] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2454*

    [20:21:36.721] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2173*
    [20:21:36.876] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:21:36.876] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:21:37.212] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 927
    [20:21:37.467] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:21:38.289] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:21:38.702] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2153*

    [20:21:47.546] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2136*
    [20:21:48.076] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:21:48.077] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:21:48.457] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 920
    [20:21:48.717] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:21:49.454] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:21:49.940] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 802

    [20:21:57.944] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 968
    [20:21:58.083] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:21:58.083] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:21:58.483] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 813 (R: 80)
    [20:21:58.655] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:21:59.440] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:21:59.827] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2208*

    [20:22:13.086] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2152*
    [20:22:13.671] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:22:13.671] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:22:14.000] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 769 (R: 170)
    [20:22:15.057] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:22:15.358] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2177*

    [20:22:43.921] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2281*
    [20:22:44.577] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
    [20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
    [20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Clearcasting fades
    [20:22:44.592] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
    [20:22:44.983] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler *1528*
    [20:22:45.998] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
    [20:22:46.280] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *289* (O: 1983)
    Source:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20101110..._rotation/p54/

    To my surprise, I found out that this interaction wasn't a warmane-specific bug, but it had actually happened on retail. Still, I wanted to be sure that it was allowed on this server, so I sent a DM to Nobuemon. His reply:


    Originally Posted by DarkenedHue
    This quirk is interesting. The increased proc rate of Clearcasting from Predatory Swiftness was definitely a thing, confirmed here by other players: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...of-clarity-100

    The question is what precisely causes this. In addition to OP's speculations, I'll throw out one of my own: Predatory's Swiftness makes any nature spell with a base cast time of less than 10 seconds an instant cast. It might be that it was coded such that any spell used under the effect of Predatory Swiftness was treated as a 10 sec cast for the purpose of Omen of Clarity's PPM.
    Originally Posted by Bigpwn
    The 10 second theory makes sense since OOC is around 3.5ppm. Using 10 second casst time for the calculation would result in roughly 58% chance to proc when a spell is used with nature's swiftness or predator's swiftness

    Some more info on OOC:
    https://plaguedcandles.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/1674/
    Source: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/70641 (btw, you'll find more evidence there)

    So, from this report I understood the following. Predator's Swiftness didn't have a high chance to proc OoC on warmane initially, and the game developers upon viewing the report considered it a bug, and they consciously enabled this interaction on their server. This convinces me that I am allowed to share this knowledge publicly. Now that this is out of the way, let's start theorycrafting:
    II. VVhat can we do with this information?

    Here I'm going to show you how I will approach this case. In order to determine how and when we can use Predator's Swiftness to force CC procs, we need to answer the following questions first:

    1) VVhat's the real proc % for this combo to give us a CC proc?
    2) VVhat are its downsides and strengths in comparison to the GotVV-shift?
    3) Can we draw any conclusions from it on our 25-man raids?

    1) VVhat's the real proc % for this combo to give us a CC proc?
    24/08/2022 Update: In the past, I didn't realise that Bigpwn was part of the staff. He claimed that the proc chance was around 58%. I suspect that the real number is 58.33% because those 10 seconds could be included in the PPH formula (if you multiply 3.5/60 by 10, you'll get 0.5833 or 58.33% for a CC proc). Let's compare it to our GotVV-shift:

    GotVV in a 25-man group:
    • 0 NPCs: 89.86% success chance;
    • 1 NPC: 90.75% success chance;
    • 2 NPCs: 91.56% success chance;
    • 3 NPCs: 92.3% success chance;
    • 4 NPCs: 92.97% success chance;
    • 5 NPCs: 93.59% success chance.

    so, the more targets we have, the less attractive the Predator's Swiftness-combo becomes. Ok, let's turn the tides. Let's compare it to GotVV in a 10-man raid:

    GotVV in a 10-man group:
    • 0 NPCs: 59.98% success chance;
    • 1 NPC: 63.48% success chance;
    • 2 NPCs: 66.67% success chance;
    • 3 NPCs: 69.59% success chance;
    • 4 NPCs: 72.25% success chance;
    • 5 NPCs: 74.68% success chance.

    1-(1-3.5/(60/1.5))^number of players and pets in the group
    So, we can conclude the following:

    If you're doing solo content or rdf, Predator's Swiftness is more reliable than the GotVV-shift.
    If you're in a 10-man or a 25-man raid, the GotVV-shift is more reliable than Predator's Swiftness.
    24/08/2022 Update: It's unfortunate seeing that the PS-OoC interaction is outshined even in 10-man groups, making it detrimental to us. Since this post is dedicated to PS, I am going to do some calculations in the following paragraphs as if we were using it normally in raids. In the past, I wrote this:

    Spoiler: Show
    VVrath: Please, forget about this spell. If you're in a 10-man raid, then there might not be a boomie or a shadow priest in your group, which means that you won't get 3% spell hit, and your spell would have a 7% chance to miss, which would also hinder your CC from proccing. And there's also a small % for the boss to resist it, so it's better to use a healing spell on yourself/on an ally. Not to mention, the offensive spell does a pathetic amount of damage, so it's not worth your concern. For that reason, when I talk about Predator's Swiftness from here onwards, I will refer to the combination between that proc and either Healing Touch or Regrowth.

    However, I understood from Nap and from the Classic druid community that this is false. Omen of Clarity procs off spellcasts regardless if they are successful or not. I decided to playtest this interaction, and I stood corrected:


    Sorry for the false info! You'll still need a /stopattack macro because the spellcast won't prevent a white swing in neutral form (you can even see the red circle under the dummy). Now that I've clarified that, I'll continue with the cons, and I'd like to repeat some of the obvious ones (which I have mentioned in the OP):

    - by exiting cat form we take the risk, that our faster attacks might have given us a CC anyway. In that case, we lose the damage from the missed AAs.
    - by exiting cat form, other members lose our "Leader of the Pack" aura.
    - unlike the GotVV-shift, we have a small time window to cast VVrath upon receiving the Predator's Swiftness proc (and I'm not even talking about the attack swing). The proc lasts only 9 seconds after utilising a finishing move due to the GCD, and thus we have less control over timing our combo. Finding the right moment to force the CC can be very difficult, and it might require a lot of concentration and mental energy.
    - when casting VVrath, there’s a possibility that our buff might whiff. Unlike the GotVV-shift, we can't redo the manoeuvre, because we would have lost the Predator's Swiftness proc from the first spell. So, in case of a whiff, we need to accept the loss and shapeshift back into cat form immediately.
    - we change back to cat form, but now we have less energy due to having 3 points in Furor.
    - when we enter cat form again, our Shred is delayed due to the GCD. In that time our cat AA could proc the CC.
    - the more we do this trick, the less mana we have. This might be a problem if someone dies, and we can't bress him.
    - speaking of bressing people, imagine that you waste your Predator's Swiftness proc on VVrath, and someone dies within a few seconds. Since you won't have the proc anymore, you have to cast the slow spell, which would eat up your damage.
    Here are the new things:

    "speaking of bressing people, imagine that you waste your Predator's Swiftness proc on VVrath, and someone dies within a few seconds. Since you won't have the proc anymore, you have to cast the slow spell, which would eat up your damage."
    This sounds bad, and I won't deny that it is. It would be really bad to get ****ed like this especially if you're in a progression raid, and your teammates tend to die a lot. My advice to you is to be as cautious as possible. Don't use it too aggressively! Also, if there's a boss mechanic, which oftentimes leads to someone's demise, you should hold onto your Predator's Swiftness proc for that moment.

    "when casting VVrath, there’s a possibility that our buff might whiff. Unlike the GotVV-shift, we can't redo the manoeuvre, because we would have lost the Predator's Swiftness proc from the first spell. So, in case of a whiff, we need to accept the loss and shapeshift back into cat form immediately."
    This is a huge penalty. Assuming that the success rate is 58.33%, in all remaining 41.67% of the cases we will remain empty-handed and suffer a loss. I'm going to give you an allegorical example - imagine that you're in a саsinо, you ask to get a small loan, and you use that money on gаmbling. Are you ok with the idea that if you fail once, there won't be a do-over? The money is gone, and it's time to pay your dues.

    "unlike the GotVV-shift, we have a small time window to cast VVrath upon receiving the Predator's Swiftness proc (and I'm not even talking about the attack swing). The proc lasts only 9 seconds after utilising a finishing move due to the GCD, and thus we have less control over timing our combo. Finding the right moment to force the CC can be very difficult, and it might require a lot of concentration and mental energy."
    Nothing more to say here. I think this paragraph explains it all. It's going to be hard to find the right moment to force a CC proc via Predator's Swiftness, and in some cases you might be overwhelmed with information and do a mistake.

    Now that we have observed the cons, it's time to calculate the damage gain when we use it:
    III. New equation

    If we accept that the proc chance of the CC is 58.33%, we cast VVrath, and we shapeshift into cat form even after a whiff, here's how the Predator's Swiftness formula should look like:

    0.5833(shred damage) + 0.5833 (average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP) + VVrath damage - (number of missed AAs)*(AA damage) - (number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(shred damage) - (number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP)
    The initial VVrath damage remains the same regardless of gear:


    (with Naxx and Ulduar gear)

    (with ICC and RS gear)
    I went to Rawr and added raid buffs, which estimated an average damage of ~900.

    I'll use the estimated 1.1 and 1.4 delays and the damage output from the fourth post.

    1) [0.7 att speed] VVe have a 1.1 delay, which is equivalent to 1.57 missed attacks. The average Shred damage is 14053, while AA - 3030. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.374 seconds, which will be 3.39 AAs. Now, let's do some math:

    8197 + 2877 + 900 - 4757 - 2779 - 976 = 3462 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that the Predator's Swiftness trick is still worth it]

    2) [0.7 att speed] VVe have a 1.4 delay, which is equivalent to 2 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.674 seconds, which will be 3.82 AAs.

    8197 + 2877 + 900 - 6060 - 3131 - 1099 = 1684 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that Predator's Swiftness is NOT able to make the cut. This means that when you don't get any CPs from your Predator's Swiftness manoeuvres, you shouldn't go for this trick.]

    3) [0.65 att speed] VVe have a 1.1 delay, which is equivalent to 1.69 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.374 seconds, which will be 3.65 AAs. Now, let's do some math:

    8197 + 2877 + 900 - 5121 - 2992 - 1050 = 2811 [if we exclude the CP value, we can see that the Predator's Swiftness trick is still worth it]

    4) [0.65 att speed] VVe have a 1.4 delay, which is equivalent to 2.15 missed attacks. If we want to consider the amount of AAs prior to Shred, we would add 1.274 seconds to this delay, and we will get 2.674 seconds, which will be 4.11 AAs.

    8197 + 2877 + 900 - 6515 - 3369 - 1183 = 907 Oof. That's really low, but at least it can serve as a benchmark for the Predator's Swiftness combo. Obviously, if I go lower than 0.65, I will start to see negative numbers, so I will stop here.]

    TLDR:
    Your current attack speed. Is the Predator's Swiftness-trick worth it?
    >0.7 only with CP value
    0.7 only with CP value
    0.65 only with CP value
    lower than 0.65 X

    Your current attack speed. Can you afford to sacrifice a Rip tick? Can you afford to sacrifice a Rake tick?
    any not recommended not recommended

    IV. Author's note

    Look, I need to clarify something. Despite the positive numbers, I am honestly not using it anywhere except in rdf and when I need to bress someone. Imho, having a 58.33% chance to get a proc is just too small in comparison to the risks we'd have to take and the effort we'd need to put. I also don't use the GotVV-shift in 10-man and just resort to the traditional OoC sources, i.e. AAs, NG, FFF, and Barkskin.

    However, this knowledge helped me understand something. It helped me understand how Predator's Swiftness works, which in turn allowed me to understand how its combination with Rebirth would work. If it behaves the same way as with VVrath, Regrowth, and Healing Touch, then we can expect to get a 58.33% for a CC proc whenever we bress someone. This means, that CATS SHOULD ALVVAYS BRESS PEOPLE FIRST, AND THEY NEED TO MAKE THE RIGHT PLAY TO GET REVVARDED. So, you should talk to your RL and ask him/her to let you be the first druid to use the bress. In comparison to the GotVV-shift, casting Rebirth has more internal value, because you're actively helping your fellow raid members, and as a bonus you'd get a CC in 58.33% of the cases. I'm going to alter my previous allegorical example for this case - imagine that you lend a friend some money. There's a chance that they repay you generously for the gesture, but there's also a chance that they "forget" about your deeds. Even in the worst case scenario, wouldn't you be glad to have helped a comrade in need? My point is that the satisfaction you'd get from being rewarded by the game would FEEL greater than with any other redundant healing spell, because your spellcast would have a real purpose this time around.
    Edited: September 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  6. A small(?) mistake

    FERAL VS CASTER GCD DURATION

    After reading the EJ forums, I've noticed that many referred to the GCD lasting 1.5 seconds, which was weird to me because I've seen it being mentioned as 1 second. So, a few hours ago, I decided to check wowwiki to see what it would say, and, alas, it confirmed my suspicions:

    The global cooldown is generally 1.5 seconds for all classes except rogues, Cat Form druids, and Death Knights, whose abilities are mostly one second global cooldown.
    So, the following abilities have the ordinary 1.5 sec GCD:

    • Gift of the VVild;
    • VVrath/Regrowth/Healing Touch/Rebirth + PS.

    If there are some good news, I've read that haste minimises that number by a bit. For this example, I used the following macro:

    /run local ID = 21849; local start, duration, enabled = GetSpellCooldown(ID); ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("%u start %.3f, duration %.3f, enabled %.3f", ID, start, duration, enabled))

    Source: https://www.wowhead.com/forums/topic...own-gcd-234018
    In order for this to work, you need to cast any spell and use the command in the chat. I did some quick tests, and here's what I've got:



    Explanation:
    • If the duration is 0.0000 = no GCD is present.
    • If the duration is 1.378 = GCD lasts 1.378 seconds.
    • If the duration is 1.258 = GCD lasts 1.258 seconds.

    Since on my Icecrown druid, I have 290 haste rating, which translates as 11.5% melee haste and 8.84% spell haste, I divided 1.5 by 1.0884 and got 1.378. Since I wanted to be more certain about the results, I used my Engineering Enchant. This increased my melee haste to 24.98% and my spell haste to 19.21%. Once again, I divided 1.5 by 1.1921 and got 1.258.

    So, this is how I can determine the duration of our GCDs in 25-man raids.

    1.5/1.0884/1.03(spell haste from boomies)/1.05 (wrath of the air totem) = 1.274 seconds

    VVith more haste rating (from DBVV and haste pots), this number would decrease as well. Melee haste by itself wouldn't affect it though.

    Sorry for the false information in the past!

    Edited: February 26, 2023 Reason: minor edit

  7. VVOULD A 4CP FB BE PART OF FERAL CAT'S GAMEPLAY?
    (FOOD FOR THOUGHT)

    I. General overview
    In the past, I was quite curious to know the answer to this question. After all, many feral guides (and not just on warmane) suggested that we should cast FB with 5CPs and no less than that. However, according to FluffyBully crogues would lose damage if their Sinister Strike has the potential to grant them 2 CPs while they sit at 4 CPs:

    It's simple. Due to Sinister Strike Glyph. You can reach 4CP with 2 sinister strikes, then the 3rd sinister strike might be a waste of 1 combo point and the AP scaling of 5CP finisher can be ignored cuz you gona pump out more finishers that way especially with 4set.
    Examples of what combo points u might get:
    SS --> 2 CP SS --> 4 CP ---> SS 5 CP == 1 CP wasted if the next one procs the glyph
    1 CP from talent SS --> 3 CP ---> ss--> either 4 or 5 in both cases you don't lose a combo point
    1 CP from talent again --> SS --> 2 CP SS --> 4 CP next SS can be again a waste so we saved a combo point here again for the next cycle
    so I thought - why can't this apply to feral cats as well? Yes, we don't have a tier bonus that grants us extra CPs, but wouldn't the principle still be applied?

    Before I figured out how to take the value of our CPs, I was constantly facing a dead end because X number of Shreds with 4CP FB always ended doing less damage than with 5CP FB. However, now that I've shared my idea on how to take that factor into consideration (read "VVhat's the value of a CP?" in the fourth post), I'd like to have another take. Here are some numbers:

    14029 AP (with raid buffs + AP flask); 78% crit (incl. the crit vulnerability); 100% arp (DA=0.98); SR, no idol, no Berserking, and no trinket procs are included here:

    - Rip damage:
    • Rip (non-crit) = 2450
    • Rip (crit) = 5552
    • Rip (average) = 4721

    - Shred damage:
    • non-crit = 7294
    • crit = 16528
    • average =14053

    - FB critical damage:
    • 5CP FB = 25951
    • 4CP FB = 20912

    - Value of a CP based on x amount of CPs for a critical FB:
    • 5CP = 14332 (1CP = 2848, 2CPs = 5696, 1.732CPs = 4933)
    • 4CP = 9201 (1CP = 2300.25, 2CPs = 4600.5, 1.732CPs = 3984)
    If I ignore OoC procs from AAs, trinket procs, and energy flow in general, here's a hypothetical example:

    Shreds are critical strikes, Rip doesn't play a role:
    • 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 2*Shreds + 4CPs
    • 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB

    In both cases, we would have enough energy for 6 Shreds and 2 FBs. Let's do some math:

    6*Shreds + 2*4CP FB + 4CP bonus damage (4CP FB) vs 6*Shreds + 2*5CP FB
    If I remove the Shred damage, I'd get:
    41824 + 9201 vs 51902
    or a loss of 877 points of damage.
    Yes, I can see that it leads to a small loss, BUT that's one side of the spectrum imho. VVhat if we have to refresh Rip afterwards? Let's look at the following hypothetical example:

    Shreds are critical strikes, Rip plays a role:
    • 2*Shreds -> 4CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP Rip -> Shred + 2CPs
    • 3*Shreds -> 5CP FB -> 3*Shreds -> 5CP Rip (w/o 2 ticks)

    In both cases, we would have enough energy for 6 Shreds, one FB, and one Rip. Let's do some math:

    6*Shreds + 4CP FB + 2CPs vs 6*Shreds + 5CP FB - 2*Rip ticks
    If I remove the Shred damage, I'd get:
    20912 + 4600.5 vs 25951 - (2*4721)
    25512.5 vs 16509
    or a gain of 9003.5 points of damage.

    Let's imagine that we lose only one Rip tick in the second scenario. That would lead to:
    25512.5 vs 21230
    or a gain of 4282.5 points of damage.
    In the 4CP FB example, we would be ahead of the curve, and we would most likely refresh that finisher w/o any delays. The 5CP FB could lead to a loss if we don't generate enough CPs on time for the finisher. This could happen in bad RNG moments and/or during unfortunate boss mechanics. This means that the 4-CP FB is situationally applicable.
    Edited: August 31, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  8. AGILITY vs STRENGTH vs HASTE
    VVHICH ARCHTYPE VVOULD BE MOST SUITABLE FOR THE GOTVV-SHIFT?
    (VVARNING: HUGE VVALL OF TEXT UP AHEAD!)

    [21/02/2023] Disclaimer: The builds here are not refined, and the numbers don't lead to correct conclusions. This is why the post was continued on the third page. That said, its contents are still worth reading because you can see how I evaluated different builds in the context of "/stopattack". To this day, I still use some of the formulas here. Furthermore, even if the conclusions aren't 100% accurate, the numbers show an interesting tendency - haste becomes less attractive the more GotVV-shifts we perform on average per minute. As you're about to find out on the next page, it takes more than one shift to make this stat less attractive unlike what I said here in the past. Regardless, that tendency encouraged me to look past haste and to consider builds with more strength gems.

    I. Preface (readers can skip)

    It needs to be said: I’m not a usually person, who tackles the topic about BiS gear, BiS gems, and BiS enchants for feral cat, because for starters most of the components are the same with only few exceptions, and, quite frankly, I never liked working with small numbers. After actually seeing how much damage an AP increase actually does, I just got convinced that executing the abilities precisely and managing your energy well played a much bigger role than some minor stat increases.

    Just to prove my point - if the GotVV-shift hadn’t been as profitable as it is and had just given me 3-digit bonuses, even if they were 100% guaranteed and 100% safe on every single usage, I would have never made this thread in the first place. So, why this post then? Quite honestly, I’ve stumbled upon people who preferred Strength with the GotVV-shift w/o providing the proper numbers. Even though it was made clear in this thread that this manoeuvre has notable anti-synergies with haste, I didn’t explicitly say that haste is completely out of the question. Because of the contradicting statements I’ve heard in the past, I’m going to try to find out whether Agility or Strength would fit this manoeuvre better, or whether Haste would still remain king despite the obvious challenges. In order to get better results, I’ve decided to use Rawr v 2.3.23 this time around and to develop different builds for each of those stats, which from now on I am going to refer to as archtypes, and compare their damage output in the context of the GotVV-shift. Let it be clear that whatever gear lists you see won't necessarily be treated as BiS - I just needed good representatives of each archtype for this post.
    II. An example build for each archtype

    If you click on each spoiler, you’d see a nice representation of how each archtype would look like in terms of items, gems, enchants, and overall stats.

    Gerenal features:


    Agility
    Spoiler: Show


    Items:
    Head - Heroic t10
    Neck - Sindragosa 25 hc
    Shoulders - Heroic t10
    Cloak - Funship 25 hc
    Chest - Heroic t10
    VVrists - Halion 25 hc
    Gloves - Rotface 25 hc
    VVaist - Prof. Putricide 25 hc
    Legs - Heroic t10
    Feet - Lord Marrowgar 25 hc
    Ring N1 - Halion 25 hc
    Ring N2 - Ashen Verdict rep (exalted)
    Trinket N1 - Halion 25 hc
    Trinket N2 - Deathbringer Saurfang 25 hc
    VVeapon - Lich King 25 hc
    Relic - t10

    Gems:
    Red - 10x“20 ArP”, 1x “34 Agility”, 1x “20 Exp” 1x “20 Agility”
    Yellow - 2x “34 Hit”, 3x “20 Hit”
    Orange - 1x “10 Hit, 10 Exp” 1x“10 Agility, 10 Hit”
    Blue - 1x “10 all primary stats”
    Meta - 1x “21 agility, 3% crit dmg”

    Enchants:
    Head - Knights of the Ebon Blade revered
    Shoulders - Sons of Hodir exalted
    Cloak - Engineering
    Chest - “10 all stats”
    VVrist - “50 AP”
    Hands - Engineering
    VVaist - Blacksmithing
    Legs - Leatherworking
    Feet - Engineering
    Weapon - Berserker

    15835 AP, 77.92% crit, 0.695 att speed
    AA damage = 1880.857 (hit), 1410.64 (glancing), 4262 (crit), 3555.1 (average)
    Mangle = 5576.787 (hit), 12637 (crit), 11078.2 (average)
    Shred = 8227.447 (hit), 18643.395 (crit), 16343.8 (average)
    Rake = 10411.45 (hit), 23592.346 (crit), 20682.3 (average)
    Rip = 28971.13 (hit), 65648.58 (crit), 57551 (average)
    FB = 12923.61 (hit), 29284.9 (crit), 29284.9 (average)


    Strength
    Spoiler: Show


    Items:
    Head - Heroic t10
    Neck - Sindragosa 25 hc
    Shoulders - Heroic t10
    Cloak - Funship 25 hc
    Chest - Heroic t10
    VVrists - Halion 25 hc
    Gloves - Rotface 25 hc
    VVaist - Prof. Putricide 25 hc
    Legs - Heroic t10
    Feet - Lord Marrowgar 25 hc
    Ring N1 - Halion 25 hc
    Ring N2 - Ashen Verdict rep (exalted)
    Trinket N1 - Halion 25 hc
    Trinket N2 - Deathbringer Saurfang 25 hc
    VVeapon - Lich King 25 hc
    Relic - t10

    VVhy not Halion 25 hc necklace, TOGC 25 cloak, DBS 25 hc wrists?
    I actually did some calculations with the neck and Valihtria 25 hc ring. The att speed was 0.709, and it underperformed by a great amount in comparison to all other archtypes. I was even going to post the results here, but I figured that the lower amount of AAs was the culprit of my past conclusions. I was right, btw. So, I now use the typical agility gear list and just resort to strength gems, as you're about to see.

    Gems:
    Red - 10x“20 ArP”, 1x “34 Strength”, 1x “20 Exp”, 1x "20 Strength"
    Yellow - 2x “34 Hit”, 3x “20 Hit”
    Orange - 1x “10 Hit, 10 Exp” 1x“10 Strength, 10 Hit”
    Blue - 1x “10 all primary stats”
    Meta - 1x “21 agility, 3% crit dmg”

    Enchants:
    Head - Knights of the Ebon Blade revered
    Shoulders - Sons of Hodir exalted
    Cloak - Engineering
    Chest - “10 all stats”
    Wrist - “50 AP”
    Hands - Engineering
    Waist - Blacksmithing
    Legs - Leatherworking
    Feet - Engineering
    Weapon - Berserker

    15985 AP, 76.43% crit, 0.695 att speed
    AA damage = 1897.621 (hit), 1423.216 (glancing), 4300 (crit), 3574.6 (average)
    Mangle = 5617.779 (hit), 12729.887 (crit), 11052.4 (average)
    Shred = 8286.29 (hit), 18776.733(crit), 16304.6 (average)
    Rake = 10481.13 (hit), 23750.24 (crit), 20623.24 (average)
    Rip = 29139.21 (hit), 66029.45 (crit), 57335.9 (average)
    FB = 13018.08 (hit), 29499 (crit), 29499 (average)


    Haste
    Spoiler: Show
    Even though I have seen haste builds in the past, the one, which I believe to be refined, can be found in Blunta’s guide. I’m not going to include his list of items, gems, and enchants here, because I don’t want to take credit for someone else’s hard work. He has put a lot of effort in figuring out the proper lists (for Horde and for Alliance cats), and he deserves the proper credit. Make sure to give him that.

    That said, I will take the liberty of taking a screenshot of his stats (modified with raid buffs and Haste food) and using them for my formulas. The following stats are for the Horde-build:



    15574 AP, 75.11% crit, 0.652 att speed
    AA damage = 1851.687 (hit), 1388.765(glancing), 4195.923 (crit), 3460.2 (average)
    Mangle = 5506.779 (hit), 12478.361 (crit), 10743.3 (average)
    Shred = 8125.06 (hit), 18411.386(crit), 15851.4 (average)
    Rake = 10290.22 (hit), 23317.635 (crit), 20075.5 (average)
    Rip = 28678.67 (hit), 64985.866 (crit), 55950 (average)
    FB = 12759.24 (hit), 28912.438 (crit), 28783.6 (average)

    VVe can already see how the damage of some abilities has been formed. Now, it’s time to add them in combat:
    III. Performance of each archtype in fights with different lengths and a different amount of CCs

    Although I didn’t use any software simulators for the following experiment, I created a hypothetical environment, which I filled with as little RNG as possible. I wanted to compare all different archtypes to one another and see which dealt the most damage when all factors were equal. This was my main goal - equality and not reality because in a real-life scenario RNG would have an annoying influence over the encounter, and the numbers would lead to false conclusions, as this person explains it well in the following video:


    For that reason, here’s how I defined the conditions
    Spoiler: Show
    • Berserk was not included here. By adding that CD, I would have been forced to take into consideration the energy flow not only during the first X seconds, but also during the next few seconds when certain finishers were about to expire, which would have been too big of a headache. Imho, it would be easier and simpler to just fill the fights with a specific amount of abilities and add varying amounts of CCs (procced by AAs and GotVV-shifts).
    • For the sake of simplicity, every GotVV-shift had a 100% chance of success;
    • I've added 1/2/3 GotVV-shifts per minute for some fights; fights that lasted additional 30 seconds received half that amount rounded down.
    • I've added additonal 5 CCs which were generated from AAs per minute (which is a CC proc every 12 seconds if you think about it, and this isn't unheard of); fights that lasted additional 30 seconds received 2 extra CCs.
    • For the sake of simplicity, I evaluated each CC to be worth 42 energy.
    • CPs hadn’t been taken into consideration at all (like, I can’t possibly imagine when Shred grants me CP-value and when it’s just a filler at 5CPs).
    • The fights started like so: CC from pre GotVV cast + Mangle -> Rake -> SR -> Shreds + TF -> 5 CP Rip
    • SR was used at the 3rd second mark for the first time. Mangle and Rake prior to SR didn’t include its buff. I didn't bother to do the same for the AAs, fyi.
    • The duration of SR was treated as 31.5 (the average between 4 and 5 CPs).
    • Rip and Rake have a 100% uptime after they’re cast for the first time unless they aren’t needed in the last X seconds of a fight (for Rip this meant the last 9 seconds, and for Rake - the last 8 seconds);
    • Rip was used at the 8th second mark for the first time.
    • For simplicity's sake, each finisher required 3x CP-generators.
    • Number of AAs: duration of the fight/attack speed. VVhen using the GotVV-shift, the formula looked like so: number of GotVV-shifts*1.4 sec/attack speed.


    Small example with explanations
    Spoiler: Show
    Let’s observe a 1:30-min fight on a target-dummy boss.

    Number of AAs:
    The agility and strength builds would have 90/0.695=129.5 AAs.
    The haste build would have 90/0.652=138

    Energy consumption:
    (100 [starting energy] + 90*10 [we regenerage 10 energy per second] - 10 [the first Mangle is free but due to the CC we won’t regenerate those 10 energy points] + 3*60 [energy from TFs]) = 1170 energy in total
    Rake starts at 2, so 88/9=9 Rakes.
    Rip Starts at 8, so 82/22 = 3,7 Rips or energy for 4 Rips (rounded up)
    SR starts at 3, so 87/31.5=2,76 or 3 SRs
    2 Mangles (1 is free due to the CC at start)
    Remaining energy: 1170 - (1*40) - (9*35) - (4*20) - (3*25) = 660 energy, which would remain available for our Shreds and FBs.
    Now we need to consider how many CP-generators are needed for our finishers:
    4 Rips + 3 SRs = 7 finishers or 21 CP-generators. The current amount from Mangle and Rake is 11, so we need 10 Shreds (420 energy) to cover the rest. This means that the remaining energy would be 660-420 = 240.

    Now, I’m going to add 7 extra CCs procced by AAs and 1/3 CCs from the aforementioned 1/2 GotVV-shifts per minute (+ extra rounded down in 0x:30-min fights). Let's do the math:
    7 AA-CCs + 1 GotVV-CC = 8 CCs or 336 extra energy. We combine that with the 240 and get 576. VVe're going to use it on more 3 Shreds and then hopefully have some energy left for FBs. I'm going to calculate the energy needed for 3x Shreds and 1xFB like so:
    (3x42) + (1x35) = 161
    Now we need to see how many Shreds and FB we can get from the 576 energy:
    576:161= 3.5 or 3
    But we would have some energy left. 576 - (3*161) = 93, which could be used for 2 extra Shreds. In other words:

    Total amount of offensive abilities:
    - 2 Mangles (1 free unbuffed + 1 buffed)
    - 9 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 8 buffed)
    - 3.7 Rips
    - 21 Shreds (the initial 10 + the 9 for the 3 FBs + the 2 from the leftover energy)
    - 3 FBs

    Finally we are able to calculate the damage of each archtype:
    Agility: AAs lost due to 1 GotVV-shift:
    1.4/0.695= 2.01 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shred
    (127.49*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + (8*20682.3)) + (3.7*57551) + (21*16343.8) + (3*29284.9) = 1,297,670

    Strength: AAs lost due to 1 GotVV-shift:
    1.4/0.695= 2.01 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shred
    (127.49*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 11052.4) + ((20623.24/1.33) + (8*20623.24)) + (3.7*57335.9) + (21*16304.6) + (3*29499) = 1,298,617

    Haste: AAs lost due to 1 GotVV-shift:
    1.4/0.652= 2.15 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shreds
    (135.85*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + (8*20075.5)) + (3.7*55950) + (21*15851.4) + (3*28783.6) = 1,290,833

    "But, Kova, having more AAs from haste can lead to some extra Shreds due to additional Clearcasting procs", I hear you saying. Ye, that's true, and that's why I'm not done yet. In order to calculate the bonus damage of the extra AAs, I'm going to subtract 127.49 from 135.85 and multiply the remaining amount by 3.5/60 [the actual probability for a Shred from an AA] and ofc the Shred damage. Applying this formula only to the excess amount of AAs is the correct way to evaluate haste, because any other AA would have benefited the other archtypes as well. Here I go:
    135.85 - 127.49 = 8.36
    15851.4*8.36*3.5/60=7730

    Now, I'm going to add that amount to Haste and get 1,290,833 + 7730 = 1,298,563

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 1,298,617
    2) Haste = 1,298,563
    3) Agility = 1,297,670
    7 AA-CCs + 3 GotVV-CC = 10 CCs or 420 extra energy. VVe combine that with the 240 and get 660.
    660:161= 4.09 or 4
    But we would have some energy left. 576 - (4*161) = 16, which is not going to be used on anything. In other words:

    Total amount of offensive abilities:
    2 Mangles (1 free unbuffed + 1 buffed)
    9 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 8 buffed)
    3.7 Rips
    22 Shreds (the initial 10 + the 12 for the 4 FBs + the 0 from the leftover energy)
    4 FBs

    Finally we are able to calculate the damage of each archtype:
    Agility: AAs lost due to 3 GotVV-shift:
    3*1.4/0.695= 6.03 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shred
    (123.47*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33)+ (8*20682.3)) + (3.7*57551) + (22*16343.8) + (4*29284.9) = 1,329,007

    Strength: AAs lost due to 3 GotVV-shift:
    3*1.4/0.695= 6.03 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shred
    (123.47*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33)+ (8*20623.2)) + (3.7*57335.9) + (22*16304.6) + (4*29499) = 1,330,050

    Haste: AAs lost due to 3 GotVV-shift:
    3*1.4/0.652= 6.45 sacrificed in favour of the gained Shreds
    (131.55*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33)+ (8*20075.5)) + (3.7*55950) + (22*15851.4) + (4*28783.6) = 1,320,589

    In order to calculate the bonus damage of the extra AAs, I'm going to subtract 123.47 from 131.55 and multiply the remaining amount by 3.5/60 [the actual probability for a Shred from an AA] and ofc the Shred damage. Here I go:
    131.55 - 123.47 = 8.08
    15851.4*8.08*3.5/60=7471

    Now, I'm going to add that amount to Haste and get 1,320,608 + 7471 = 1,328,079

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 1,330,050
    2) Agility = 1,329,007
    3) Haste = 1,328,060


    This example is just a model of how I would proceed further.

    2-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumtpion:
    Total energy = 1550
    AAs (agility and str) = 172.66
    AAs (haste) = 184.05
    2 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + buffed)
    13 Rakes (1 free and unbuffed + 12 buffed)
    5 Rips
    4 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 855
    9 Finishers, in need of 27 CP-generators (or 12 Shreds/ 504 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 351

    5 AA-CCs per minute + 1/2/3 GotVV-shifts per minute or 2/4/6 CCs from GotVV-shifts throughout the whole fight

    10 AA-CCs and 2 GotVVs-CCs (504 potential energy):
    855 energy for FBs and Shreds - 5x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 50, which is enough for just 1 extra Shred.

    In total:
    2 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    13 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 12 buffed)
    5 Rips
    4 SRs
    28 Shreds
    5 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 4.03 sacrificed AAs for 2x Shreds.
    168.63 AAs in total
    Haste: 4.29 sacrificed AAs for 4x Shreds.
    179.76 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (168.63*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + (12*20682.3)) + (5*57551) + (28*16343.8) + (5*29284.9) = 1,774,448

    Strength:
    (168.63*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + (12*20623.2)) + (5*57335.9) + (28*16304.6) + (5*29499) = 1,775,835

    Haste:
    (179.76*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + (12*20075.5)) + (5*55950) + (28*15851.4) + (5*28783.6) = 1,764,334

    11.13 difference

    15851.4*11.13*3.5/60 = 10292

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 1,775,835
    2) Haste = 1,774,626
    3) Agility = 1,774,448
    10 AA-CCs and 4 GotVVs-CCs (588 potential energy):
    939 energy for FBs and Shreds - 5x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 134, which is enough for just 3 extra Shreds.

    In total:
    2 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    13 Rakes
    5 Rips
    4 SRs
    30 Shreds
    5 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 8.06 sacrificed AAs for 4x Shreds.
    164.6 AAs in total
    Haste: 8.589 sacrificed AAs for 4x Shreds.
    175.46 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (164.6*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33)+ 11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 12*20682.3) + (5*57551) + (30*16343.8) + (5*29284.9) = 1,792,809

    Strength:
    (164.6*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33)+ 11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 12*20623.2) + (5*57335.9) + (30*16304.6) + (5*29499) = 1,794,039

    Haste:
    (175.46*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33)+ 10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 12*20075.5) + (5*55950) + (30*15851.4) + (5*28783.6) = 1,781,158
    10.86 difference

    15851.4*10.86*3.5/60 = 10041.6

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 1,794,039
    2) Agility = 1,792,809
    3) Haste = 1,791,200
    10 AA-CCs and 6 GotVVs-CCs (672 potential energy):
    1016 energy for FBs and Shreds - 6x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 50, which is enough for just 1 extra Shred.

    In total:
    2 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    13 Rakes
    5 Rips
    4 SRs
    31 Shreds
    6 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 12.09 sacrificed AAs for 6x Shreds.
    160.57 AAs in total
    Haste: 12.88 sacrificed AAs for 6x Shreds.
    171.17 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (160.57*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33)+ 11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 12*20682.3) + (5*57551) + (31*16343.8) + (6*29284.9) = 1,824,111

    Strength:
    (160.57*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33)+ 11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 12*20623.2) + (5*57335.9) + (31*16304.6) + (6*29499) = 1,825,437

    Haste:
    (171.17*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33)+ 10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 12*20075.5) + (5*55950) + (31*15851.4) + (6*28783.6) = 1,810,949
    10.6 difference

    15851.4*10.6*3.5/60 = 9801

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 1,825,437
    2) Agility = 1,824,111
    3) Haste = 1,820,750

    In comparison to the previous results, the gap between agility/strength and haste increased in favour of agility/strength, so I will stop here with the 2-min fight. It’s obvious that haste won’t prevail in this setting anymore.


    2.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumption:
    Total energy = 1890
    AAs (agility and strength) = 215.83
    AAs (haste) = 230.06
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 2 buffed)
    16 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 15 buffed)
    6.45 Rips (energy for 7)
    5 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 985
    12 Finishers, in need of 36 CP-generators (or 17 Shreds or 714 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 271

    5 AA-CCs per minute + 1/2/3 GotVV-shifts per minute or 3/5/7 CCs from GotVV-shifts throughout the whole fight

    12 AA-CCs and 3 GotVVs-CCs (630 potential energy):
    901 energy for FBs and Shreds - 5x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 96, which is enough for 2 Shreds.

    In total:
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    16 Rakes
    6.45 Rips
    5 SRs
    34 Shreds
    5 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 6.04 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    209.79 AAs in total
    Haste: 6.44 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    223.62 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (209.79*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 2*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 15*20682.3) + (6.45*57551) + (34*16343.8) + (5*29284.9) = 2,175,413

    Strength:
    (209.79*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 2*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 15*20623.2) + (6.45*57335.9) + (34*16304.6) + (5*29499) = 2,176,852

    Haste:
    (223.62*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 2*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 15*20075.5) + (6.45*55950) + (34*15851.4) + (5*28783.6) = 2,163,304

    13.83 difference

    15851.4*13.83*3.5/60 = 12788

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 2,176,852
    2) Haste = 2,176,092
    3) Agility = 2,175,413
    11 AA-CCs and 5 GotVVs-CCs (672 potential energy):
    943 energy for FBs and Shreds - 5x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 138, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    16 Rakes
    6.45 Rips
    5 SRs
    35 Shreds
    5 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 10.07 sacrificed AAs for 5x Shreds.
    205.76 AAs in total
    Haste: 10.74 sacrificed AAs for 5x Shreds.
    219.32 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (205.76*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 2*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 15*20682.3) + (6.45*57551) + (35*16343.8) + (5*29284.9) = 2,177,430

    Strength:
    (205.76*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 2*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 15*20623.2) + (6.45*57335.9) + (35*16304.6) + (5*29499) = 2,178,751

    Haste:
    (219.32*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 2*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 15*20075.5) + (6.45*55950) + (35*15851.4) + (5*28783.6) = 2,164,277

    13.56 difference

    15851.4*13.56*3.5/60 = 12538

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 2,178,751
    2) Agility = 2,177,430
    3) Haste = 2,176,814
    11 AA-CCs and 7 GotVVs-CCs (756 potential energy):
    1027 energy for FBs and Shreds - 6x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 61, which is only enough for 1 Shred.

    In total:
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    16 Rakes
    6.45 Rips
    5 SRs
    36 Shreds
    6 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 14.1 sacrificed AAs for 7x Shreds.
    201.73 AAs in total
    Haste: 15.03 sacrificed AAs for 7x Shreds.
    215.03 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (201.73*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 2*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 15*20682.3) + (6.45*57551) + (36*16343.8) + (6*29284.9) = 2,208,732

    Strength:
    (201.73*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 2*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 15*20623.2) + (6.45*57335.9) + (36*16304.6) + (6*29499) = 2,210,149

    Haste:
    (215.03*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 2*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 15*20075.5) + (6.45*55950) + (36*15851.4) + (6*28783.6) = 2,194,067

    13.3 difference

    15851.4*13.3*3.5/60 = 12298

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 2,210,149
    2) Agility = 2,208,732
    3) Haste = 2,206,365

    In comparison to the previous results, the gap between agility/strength and haste increased in favour of agility/strength, so I will stop here with the 2.5-min fight. It’s obvious that haste won’t prevail in this setting anymore.


    3.0-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumption:
    Total energy = 2250
    AAs (agility and strength) = 258.99
    AAs (haste) = 276.07
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    19 Rakes
    7.82 Rips (energy for 8)
    6 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 1195
    14 Finishers, in need of 42 CP-generators (or 20 Shreds or 840 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 355

    15 AA-CCs and 3 GotVVs-CCs (756 potential energy):
    1111 energy for FBs and Shreds - 6x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 145, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 2 buffed)
    19 Rakes {1 unbuffed + 18 buffed)
    7.82 Rips
    6 SRs
    41 Shreds
    6 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 6.04 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    252.95 AAs in total
    Haste: 6.44 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    269.63 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (252.95*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 2*11078.3) + ((20682.31/1.33) + 18*20682.3) + (7.82*57551) + (41*16343.8) + (6*29284.9) = 2,613,435

    Strength:
    (252.95*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 2*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 18*20623.2) + (7.82*57335.9) + (41*16304.6) + (6*29499) = 2,615,183

    Haste:
    (269.63*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 2*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 18*20075.5) + (7.82*55950) + (41*15851.4) + (6*28783.6) = 2,599,129

    16.68 difference

    15851.4*16.68*3.5/60 = 15423

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 2,615,183
    2) Haste = 2,614,552
    3) Agility = 2,613,435
    15 AA-CCs and 6 GotVVs-CCs (882 potential energy):
    1237 energy for FBs and Shreds - 7x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 110, which is enough for 2 Shreds.

    In total:
    3 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    19 Rakes
    7.82 Rips
    6 SRs
    43 Shreds
    7 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 12.09 sacrificed AAs for 6x Shreds.
    246.9 AAs in total
    Haste: 12.88 sacrificed AAs for 6x Shreds.
    263.19 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (246.9*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 2*11078.3) + ((20682.31/1.33) + 18*20682.3) + (7.82*57551) + (43*16343.8) + (7*29284.9) = 2,653,899

    Strength:
    (246.9*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 2*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 18*20623.2) + (7.82*57335.9) + (43*16304.6) + (7*29499) = 2,655,665

    Haste:
    (263.19*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 2*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 18*20075.5) + (7.82*55950) + (43*15851.4) + (7*28783.6) = 2,637,332
    16.29 difference

    15851.4*16.29*3.5/60 = 15063

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 2,655,665
    2) Agility = 2,653,899
    3) Haste = 2,652,395

    In comparison to the previous results, the gap between agility and haste increased in favour of agility, so I will stop here with the 3-min fight. It’s obvious that haste won’t prevail in this setting anymore.


    3.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumption:
    Total energy = 2610
    AAs (agility and strength) = 302.19
    AAs (haste) = 322.09
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    23 Rakes
    9 Rips
    7 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 1330
    16 Finishers, in need of 48 CP-generators (or 21 Shreds or 882 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 448

    17 AA-CCs and 3 GotVVs-CCs (840 potential energy):
    1288 energy for FBs and Shreds - 8x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 0, which is not enough for anything.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 3 buffed)
    23 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 22 buffed)
    9 Rips
    7 SRs
    45 Shreds
    8 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 6.04 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    296.15 AAs in total
    Haste: 6.44 sacrificed AAs for 3x Shreds.
    315.65 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (296.15*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 3*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 22*20682.3) + (9*57551) + (45*16343.8) + (8*29284.9) = 3,052,678

    Strength:
    (296.15*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 3*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 22*20623.2) + (9*57335.9) + (45*16304.6) + (8*29499) = 3,055,024

    Haste:
    (315.65*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 3*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 22*20075.5) + (9*55950) + (45*15851.4) + (8*28783.6) = 3,036,407

    19.5 difference

    15851.4*19.5*3.5/60 = 18031

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,055,024
    2) Haste = 3,054,438
    3) Agility = 3,052,678
    17 AA-CCs and 7 GotVVs-CCs (1008 potential energy):
    1456 energy for FBs and Shreds - 9x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 7, which is not enough for anything.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    23 Rakes
    9 Rips
    7 SRs
    48 Shreds
    9 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 14.1 sacrificed AAs for 7x Shreds.
    288.09 AAs in total
    Haste: 15.03 sacrificed AAs for 7x Shreds.
    307.06 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (288.09*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 3*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 22*20682.3) + (9*57551) + (48*16343.8) + (9*29284.9) = 3,102,340

    Strength:
    (288.09*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 3*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 22*20623.2) + (9*57335.9) + (48*16304.6) + (9*29499) = 3,104,625

    Haste:
    (307.06*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 3*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 22*20075.5) + (9*55950) + (48*15851.4) + (9*28783.6) = 3,083,022

    18.97 difference

    15851.4*18.97*3.5/60 = 17541

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,104,625
    2) Agility = 3,102,340
    3) Haste = 3,100,563
    17 AA-CCs and 10 GotVVs-CCs (1134 potential energy):
    1582 energy for FBs and Shreds - 9x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 133, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    23 Rakes
    9 Rips
    7 SRs
    51 Shreds
    9 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 20.14 sacrificed AAs for 10x Shreds.
    282.05 AAs in total
    Haste: 21.47 sacrificed AAs for 10x Shreds.
    300.62 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (282.05*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 3*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 22*20682.3) + (9*57551) + (51*16343.8) + (9*29284.9) = 3,129,898

    Strength:
    (282.05*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 3*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 22*20623.2) + (9*57335.9) + (51*16304.6) + (9*29499) = 3,131,948

    Haste:
    (300.62*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 3*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 22*20075.5) + (9*55950) + (51*15851.4) + (9*28783.6) = 3,108,292
    18.57 difference

    15851.4*18.57*3.5/60 = 17171

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,131,948
    2) Agility = 3,129,898
    3) Haste = 3,125,463

    In comparison to the previous results, the gap between agility and haste increased in favour of agility, so I will stop here with the 3.5-min fight. It’s obvious that haste won’t prevail in this setting anymore.


    4.0-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumption:
    Total energy = 2970
    AAs (agility and strength) = 345.32
    AAs (haste) = 368.1
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 3 buffed)
    26 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 25 buffed)
    10.55 Rips (energy for 11)
    8 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 1520
    19 Finishers, in need of 57 CP-generators (or 27 Shreds or 1134 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 386

    20 AA-CCs and 4 GotVVs-CCs (1008 potential energy):
    1394 energy for FBs and Shreds - 8x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 106, which is enough for 2 Shreds.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 3 buffed)
    26 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 25 buffed)
    10.55 Rips
    8 SRs
    53 Shreds
    8 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 8.06 sacrificed AAs for 4x Shreds.
    337.26 AAs in total
    Haste: 8.59 sacrificed AAs for 4x Shreds.
    359.51 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (337.26*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 3*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 25*20682.3) + (10.55*57551) + (53*16343.8) + (8*29284.9) = 3,480,829

    Strength:
    (337.26*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 3*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 25*20623.2) + (10.55*57335.9) + (53*16304.6) + (8*29499) = 3,483,153

    Haste:
    (359.51*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 3*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 25*20075.5) + (10.55*55950) + (53*15851.4) + (8*28783.6) = 3,461,931

    22.25 difference

    15851.4*22.25*3.5/60 = 20574

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,483,153
    2) Haste = 3,482,505
    3) Agility = 3,480,829
    20 AA-CCs and 8 GotVVs-CCs (1176 potential energy):
    1562 energy for FBs and Shreds - 9x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 113, which is enough for 2 Shreds.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    26 Rakes
    10.55 Rips
    8 SRs
    56 Shreds
    9 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 16.11 sacrificed AAs for 8x Shreds.
    329.2 AAs in total
    Haste: 17.18 sacrificed AAs for 8x Shreds.
    350.92 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (329.2*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 3*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 25*20682.3) + (10.55*57551) + (56*16343.8) + (9*29284.9) = 3,530,491

    Strength:
    (329.2*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 3*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 25*20623.2) + (10.55*57335.9) + (56*16304.6) + (9*29499) = 3,532,754

    Haste:
    (350.92*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 3*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 25*20075.5) + (10.55*55950) + (56*15851.4) + (9*28783.6) = 3,508,546

    21.71 difference

    15851.4*21.71*3.5/60 = 20074

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,532,754
    2) Agility = 3,530,491
    3) Haste = 3,528,620

    I think that the numbers clearly go against haste, so I’m going to stop with the 4-min fight.


    4.5-min nonstop dummy-boss fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Energy consumption:
    Total energy = 3330
    AAs (agility and strength) = 388.49
    AAs (haste) = 414.11
    5 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    29 Rakes
    11.91 Rips (energy for 12)
    9 SRs
    Remaining energy for Shreds and FBs = 1690
    21 Finishers, in need of 63 CP-generators (or 29 Shreds or 1218 energy if we exclude the Mangles and Rakes)
    Remaining energy = 472

    5 AA-CCs per minute + 1/2 GotVV-shifts per minute or 5/9 CCs from GotVV-shifts throughout the whole fight

    22 AA-CCs and 5 GotVVs-CCs (1134 potential energy):
    1606 energy for FBs and Shreds - 9x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 157, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    5 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed + 4 buffed)
    29 Rakes (1 unbuffed + 28 buffed)
    11.91 Rips
    9 SRs
    59 Shreds
    9 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 10.07 sacrificed AAs for 5x Shreds.
    378.42 AAs in total
    Haste: 10.74 sacrificed AAs for 5x Shreds.
    403.37 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (378.42*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 4*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 28*20682.3) + (11.91*57551) + (59*16343.8) + (9*29284.9) = 3,908,509

    Strength:
    (378.42*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 4*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 28*20623.2) + (11.91*57335.9) + (59*16304.6) + (9*29499) = 3,905,899

    Haste:
    (403.37*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 4*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 28*20075.5) + (11.91*55950) + (59*15851.4) + (9*28783.6) = 3,884,650

    24.95 difference

    15851.4*24.95*3.5/60 = 23070

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,908,509
    2) Haste = 3,907,720
    3) Agility = 3,905,899
    22 AA-CCs and 9 GotVVs-CCs (1302 potential energy):
    1774 energy for FBs and Shreds - 11x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 3, which is not enough for anything.

    In total:
    5 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    29 Rakes
    11.91 Rips
    9 SRs
    62 Shreds
    11 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 18.13 sacrificed AAs for 9x Shreds.
    370.36 AAs in total
    Haste: 19.33 sacrificed AAs for 9x Shreds.
    394.78 AAs in total

    Agility:
    (370.36*3555.1) + ((11078.3/1.33) + 4*11078.3) + ((20682.3/1.33) + 28*20682.3) + (11.91*57551) + (62*16343.8) + (11*29284.9) = 3,984,846

    Strength:
    (370.36*3574.6) + ((11052.4/1.33) + 4*11052.4) + ((20623.2/1.33) + 28*20623.2) + (11.91*57335.9) + (62*16304.6) + (11*29499) = 3,987,609

    Haste:
    (394.78*3460.2) + ((10743.3/1.33) + 4*10743.3) + ((20075.5/1.33) + 28*20075.5) + (11.91*55950) + (62*15851.4) + (11*28783.6) = 3,960,048

    24.42 difference

    15851.4*24.42*3.5/60 = 22580

    So, with this in mind, here’s how the damage would look like at the end:
    1) Strength = 3,987,609
    2) Agility = 3,984,846
    3) Haste = 3,982,628

    I think that the numbers clearly go against haste, so I’m going to stop with the 4.5-min fight and with any further calculations in general.

    IV. Final verdict
    - As I’ve expected, the anti-synergies would have a toll on the haste archtype. The more we use the manoeuvre, the less attractive haste becomes.
    - Surprisingly, strength was the clear winner here. Even with 1 GotVV-shift per minute, it was able to beat haste. I thought agility would benefit more due to the extra crit, but the numbers go in favour of the stronk kat.
    13/04/2022 Update: Yday, I wanted to do more calculations and see at what threshold agility would become better than strength. TLDR: You'd need an ABSURD amount of GotVV-shifts per minute to reach that threshold. I don't know what the actual threshold is because I stopped with 15 GotVV-shifts per minute. Check the next spoiler if you want to see some proof:
    Spoiler: Show
    4min fight

    20 AA-CCs and 16 GotVVs-CCs (1512 potential energy) [aka 4 GotVV-shifts per minute]:
    1898 energy for FBs and Shreds - 11x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 127, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    26 Rakes
    10.55 Rips
    8 SRs
    63 Shreds
    11 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 32.23 sacrificed AAs for 16x Shreds.
    313.01 AAs in total


    Agility:
    (313.01*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (63*Shreds) + (11*FBs) = 3,645,910

    Strength:
    (313.01*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (63*Shreds) + (11*FBs) = 3,648,013
    20 AA-CCs and 24 GotVVs-CCs (1848 potential energy) [aka 6 GotVV-shifts per minute]:
    2234 energy for FBs and Shreds - 13x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 141, which is enough for 3 Shreds.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    26 Rakes
    10.55 Rips
    8 SRs
    69 Shreds
    13 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 48.35 sacrificed AAs for 24x Shreds.
    296.97 AAs in total


    Agility:
    (296.97*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (69*Shreds) + (13*FBs) = 3,745,519

    Strength:
    (296.97*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (69*Shreds) + (13*FBs) = 3,747,502
    20 AA-CCs and 60 GotVVs-CCs (3360 potential energy) [aka 15 GotVV-shifts per minute]:
    3746 energy for FBs and Shreds - 23x [(3x42) + (1x35) = 161]
    Remaining energy - 43, which is enough for 1 Shred.

    In total:
    4 Mangles (1 free and unbuffed)
    26 Rakes
    10.55 Rips
    8 SRs
    97 Shreds
    23 FBs

    Number of AAs:
    Agility and Strength: 120.86 sacrificed AAs for 60x Shreds.
    224.46 AAs in total


    Agility:
    (224.46*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (97*Shreds) + (23*FBs) = 4,238,214

    Strength:
    (224.46*AAs) + (unbuffed Mangle + 3*buffed Mangle) + (unbuffed Rake + 25*buffed Rakes) + (10.55*Rips) + (97*Shreds) + (23*FBs) = 4,239,826

    - VVhether haste or agility would take the silver medal is determined by the amount of GotVV-shifts you do per minute. Typically, you need at least two in order for agility to prevail.

    Kova, what does that mean for Potion of Haste?
    Spoiler: Show
    It’s still the go-to potion. In the past, I’ve done some calculations with the haste potion and potion of stength (TBC version), and the numbers go in favour of the prior consumable. Sadly, I have written the numbers somewhere, and I can’t find them, so you have to take my word for it.

    Since people prepot the potion, you would gain its value during Bloodlust. It’s usually cast at the start when we are in our Berserk, and since the GotVV-shift is illadvised during our big CD, you’d get your value from the potion.

    The second potion should be used at best in combination with the haste proc from DBVV. Like, if you use attack speed modifiers, it’s better to stack all of them so that you don’t have to sacrifice any value with the GotVV-shift. Either that or use them when you're pooling energy.


    25/09/2022 Update: I just redid my calculations, and technically they're correct, but they are based on Rawr's faulty estimation of the proc rate for the ICC rep ring. It's not 10%, but rather 1.66% (1 PPM). This post is continued here.
    Edited: February 20, 2023 Reason: added an orange text at the start

  9. SOMETHING ABOUT THE 5% MELEE CRIT

    Recently, I've noticed a peculiar interaction between feral druid's http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=24932 and Fury VVarrior's http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=29801. VVhile I was shapeshifting out of catform, I saw a small delay with the latter aura. It didn't pop up immediately but only after around 2 seconds. At first, I thought it was just a visual bug, but now I wanted to test this interaction with my guild, and my fears became a reality:






    So, yeah. I wanted to inform everyone who wanted to use this technique. Even if this new information drives people away from this thread (not like the huge walls of the next didn't do it beforehand, but that's a different topic), as you can see I have always valued transparency. Now you know one more thing about this playstyle.

    [edit] In a last desperate attempt to save this theorycraft from the niche status, I watched some old retail videos, hoping to see that the interaction had worked differently on retail so that I could submit a ticket and report it in the bugtracker. I'm sad to say, but there's no bug here. Check this video:


    Timestamps for the dudu 5% crit being replaced by Rampage:
    • 1:59-2:00
    • 2:54-2:55
    • 5:35-5:37

    As I've expected, the delay had occurred in the past as well, so nothing can be "fixed" about this interaction as it's working "as intended". Ngl, it was very disappointing learning about its existence after everything so far, and I'm still very salty about it. Like, the GoTVV-shift added an extra layer of skill to feral cat's gameplay, and all of the other parts aligned so well for this theorycraft. Just one small, unlogical, unintuitive interaction was all it took to slap the "niche" tag on it due to how punishing the loss of the 5% crit for 1 second could be for the rest of the non-fwarrior and non-feral mdps and hunters.
    Edited: September 1, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  10. May 13, 2022  
    FOLLOVV-UP POST

    Look, initially I planned to leave the thread as it is. After learning about the existence of the delay between Rampage and Leader of the Pack, I did a bit of a research - I tried to find proof for that in retail wotlk, and I also asked some forum users and staff members about their opinion:

    The delay being reported in the bug tracker:
    Bigpwn:

    The report is incorret, auras were updated periodically on retail aswell (Can see the delay in this clip for example)
    https://youtu.be/hDQXM0-jkeA?t=158
    Source: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/105419 provided by skullatbash {thanks, mate}

    VVhen asking about the possibility of removing the delay:


    Indeed the delay is not only blizzlike, but it seems that the staff prefers to keep it due to technical reasons (I don't know how removing the delay would be heavy on the hardware, but I won't dispute it). So, the delay will always be present, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

    Or so I thought:
    Please check the following video:

    Spoiler: Show
    I'm not going to write a commentary about my performance in this post, as this is not the topic of the post. I've you're interested in what I have to say about ot, you can check my notes in the "Demonstration" section. The topic right here is only about Rampage.
    Time stamps when the GotVV-shift was used:
    • 0:29-0:30
    • 0:35-0:36
    • 0:49-0:48
    • 0:54-0:55
    • 1:05-1:06
    • 1:21-1:22
    • 1:36-1:37
    • 2:11-2:12
    • 2:29-2:30
    • 2:40-2:42
    • 2:51-2:52
    • 3:11-3:12
    • 3:35-3:36
    • 3:52-3:53

    I've purposely coloured some of the time stamps. It seems that the delay is not behaving on a consistent basis, and SOMETIMES it's absent. I wanted to ask the staff about this interaction again, and this was our brief conversation:



    VVell, those were some good news at least. VVe're allowed to explore this territory a bit more and potentially find a way to trigger Rampage on a more consistent basis. BlueAo considered it as a minor and insignificant thing. I'd like to explain why it matters to me - the same reason why casters love Demo Locks and Boomies for their buffs, so too the 5% crit is important to melees and hunters. If even a tank doesn't get a crit because of the absence of the aura, then it doesn't matter how much dps we gain from this as the raid damage decreases. This is why I've made this post:

    I want to find a way to have Rampage on a more consistent basis. Now, I am aware that there's a possibility that the server processes information differently at times, and that cannot be changed. In that case nothing we do would impact this interaction, and we have to accept that the delay is inevitable. However, if this is caused by a code that can behave differently as we've observed in the video, then I want to find out how to manipulate it (ofc by using legit methods and not cheating programs for example). I'm leaving this post like so, in case someone finds the information to be somewhat useful.
    Edited: August 24, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  11. May 17, 2022  
    SOLUTION?

    Before I continue, I'd like to mention something. I had some ideas on what to attempt, which would trigger Rampage to pop up a bit more frequently. Some of them might sound a bit silly, and I would prolly make a fool of myself, but I want to mention them here just in case they give someone food for thought:
    • 2 or more fury warriors in the raid;
    • one fury warrior, but he needs to be in the same party group as the feral GotVV-shifter;
    • a fury warrior who resides in the country where the server is hosted (I know, this sounds really dumb, but I thought that the client-server information might be processed differently depending on that);
    • raiding with a fury warrior in a low-ms instance (-//-).

    Again, I know that some of these sound really absurd and silly, but I was looking for different solutions. A few minutes ago, I participated in a failed RS 25 pug raid with 2 fury warriors and one feral tank. Here are some videos of me shapeshifting out of cat form and casting MotVV:

    Shapeshifts out of cat form
    Spoiler: Show
    • 0:01 - Dunno whether it counts, as I didn't use MotVV, but wtv. No 5% for <1 sec.
    • 0:04-0:05 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:07-0:08 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:10-0:12 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:13-0:15 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:16-0:18 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:19-0:21 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:22-0:24 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:26-0:27 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:29-0:31 - No 5% crit for 1 second, followed by 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:32-0:33 - No 5% crit for 1 second, followed by 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:35-0:37 - No 5% crit for 1 second, followed by 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:39-0:40 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:41-0:42 - 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:43-0:44 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:46-0:47 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:49-0:50 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:52-0:53 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.

    Shapeshifts out of cat form
    Spoiler: Show
    • 0:01-0:02 5% from a fury warrior.
    • 0:03-0:04 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:06-0:07 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. Fwarrior aura.
    • 0:10-0:12 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:13-0:15 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:16-0:18 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:19-0:21 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:23-0:24 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:26-0:27 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura.
    • 0:29-0:30 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura.
    • 0:32-0:34 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura.
    • 0:35-0:36 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura and replaced by the bear's buff at the end. KekVV
    • 0:37-0:39 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura and replaced by the bear's buff at the end. KekVV
    • 0:40-0:42 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura and replaced by the bear's buff at the end. KekVV
    • 0:44-0:46 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura and replaced by the bear's buff at the end. KekVV
    • 0:47-0:49 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura and replaced by the bear's buff at the end. KekVV

    Shapeshifts out of cat form
    Spoiler: Show
    • 0:02-0:03 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:05-0:06 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:08-0:09 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:11-0:12 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:14-0:15 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:17-0:18 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:21-0:22 - 5% from the other feral.
    • 0:23-0:24 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:26-0:27 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:29-0:30 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:32-0:33 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:35-0:36 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:38-0:39 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:41-0:42 - No 5% crit for 1 sec. The fwarrior aura appeared right before I shapeshifted back into cat form.
    • 0:44-0:45 - No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura.
    • 0:48-0:49 No 5% crit for around 0.5 sec. Fwarrior aura.

    I was actually surprised seeing how the Rampage-Leader of the Pack interaction functioned. As you can see, despite there being a bear tank in the raid (2/2 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=34300, whereas I only have 1/2), the dudu 5% didn't always register. In the cases, when it did, it was an immediate replacement, but most of the time the fwarrior's aura was present. So, the answer is - we need more fwarriors?

    [Update: 07/07/2022] No, we don't. I was in an Onyxia 25-man run two months ago, and although I don't have any footage of the fight, I remember seeing from time to time how the 5% crit didn't appear with the addition of 2 fwarriors. Seeing how inconsistent the delay is, I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that it's a visual bug. However, since I don't have any proof for this, I can't promote this claim. Use this information as you want. I would appreciate if someone monitors fights with and without the GotVV-shift and shows me whether the delay is real or just an illusion.
    Edited: July 7, 2022 Reason: Read the "Changelog" in the "Summary".

  12. `I've tested it multiple times, and I had encountered a delay, which prevented me from using my abilities immediately.`

    I use Shred -> Instantly swap Idol -> I can cast Rake normally. Moreover, I am getting CC procs when equiping the Idol.

    I tried this at target dummy, you think it behaves differently in a raid environment ? This way we can use the Rip Idol to buff a 5CP Rip, then swap back to 264 Idol while keeping the Agility buff, correct?

  13. `I've tested it multiple times, and I had encountered a delay, which prevented me from using my abilities immediately.`

    I use Shred -> Instantly swap Idol -> I can cast Rake normally. Moreover, I am getting CC procs when equiping the Idol.

    I tried this at target dummy, you think it behaves differently in a raid environment ? This way we can use the Rip Idol to buff a 5CP Rip, then swap back to 264 Idol while keeping the Agility buff, correct?
    Hey! I'm sorry to say, but the information here is slightly outdated. In the past, I wasn't aware that the idol can be swapped immediately after a person casts an ability, in order to overlap the cat 1-sec GCD with the regular one. I had observed something similar by a lucky occurance, and this is why I proposed a combined macro with the GotVV-shift and the relic swap so that you would get both effects at the same time. Since I didn't understand that interaction too well, I didn't put too much thought into it afterwards.

    As for the CC from the relic swap - I am certain that it's just a lucky proc. OoC is triggered by AAs and target of our spells. Relic swapping can't do it.

    Btw, I've explained the topic of idol swapping in my new guide. Check this quote:

    14. SWAPPING IDOLS DURING COMBAT

    Spoiler: Show
    I. Definition

    Just like FB, this topic also deserves its own section since this manoeuvre is quite beloved by Frostmourne players and by some members of the already progressed realms. Idol swapping, as the name suggests, is when you replace your relic with another in order to benefit from the effects of both. Before I go in more detail, I've made a list of all idols which benefit us:



    II. Combining different effects

    Despite me mentioning 7 relics above, you can combine the effects only of five of them. Those are 1) Increased AP, 2) increased Swipe damage, 3) increased Shred damage, 4) increased Rip damage, and 5) the agility proc (either from Corruptor, Mutilation, or Crying Moon) respectively. If you swap the representatives of the last category with each other, the buff will be replaced constantly.

    Proof that you only need to snapshot Rip with the rip idol in order to increase its damage:

    III. Price to pay

    All of this may sound really alluring, but as always there’s a catch. When you equip the new idol, you trigger a 1.5-second GCD, which delays your next cat ability for so long, and your attack swing also experiences a small hiccup. The good news are that this can be performed during the GCD of a cat ability, in order to overlap with it to a certain extent. For a better visualisation, I’d like to show you the following video:


    This clip is quite educational as it shows the things, which can **** you up during the swap:

    1) AA delay: Do you see how my AAs have a hiccup at 00:08 and 00:10? I admit, I haven't calculated the duration of that small delay, but since it exists, it means that throughout the course of a fight you would have less AAs and thus less opportunuties to get a CC proc. Even if the overall loss is 1-2 AAs for a whole 3-min fight (reaaaaaaaaally generous with this estimation), you can clearly see how those hiccups decrease the reward of the manoeuvre.

    2) Presence of a GCD: I used a macro for the Shred and for the Rip idols. Whenever you combine an ability with the idol, the ability pops up first, followed by the idol swap (00:07). However, if you spam your ability or cast it before the cat GCD ends, you will replace your idol before sequencing the ability, and this would be delayed. Even though I waited for the GCD to end, I got screwed at 00:09. So, if you’re going to attempt idol swapping, you should do it without the aforementioned macro. You’d need to use an ability and swap the idol manually and immediately afterwards (with a keybind obviously). If you do a mistake and don’t swap the idol fast enough, you’d suffer a longer lock-out from the GCD. This is particularly bad when it comes to CCs for two reasons: (1) During the lock-out, your AA could proc a CC and replace your current one, (2) dealing with so much micromanagement could overburden you with information and lead to you screwing up the "CC priority list". Another GCD-related penalty concerns our Berserk. Imagine swapping idols during our big CD and missing out on an ability, or worse - overflowing your energy. Like so:






    IV. Conclusion

    When can you actually afford to swap idols?
    • after the first Berserk and outside the next ones;
    • when you don't have a CC proc;
    • when a boss mechanic (AoE, fear etc) is not taking place any time soon;
    • when SR has >3-second duration;
    • when Rip has >3-second duration;
    • when you have <70 energy.

    Regardless how careful you are, you'd inevitably lose some AAs due to the caused delay.

    Quick notes:
    - 3.0 content phase: 8 Shreds are needed to profit more from the Shred idol than from the Rip one. You can use the Shred idol before and during berserk and swap it with the Rip one when the first Rip expires;
    - 3.1 content phase: same as above, but 7 Shreds outperform the bonus Rip damage from Worship idol;
    - Rest of the phases: you use the patch's best idol prior and during Berserk and swap it with the Rip one before the bleed expires.
    You can already guess that I’m not doing it - I hate small numbers, especially when the reward-effort ratio is very light on the actual gain. I also consider human error as a factor for this manoeuvre, and making a single mistake (i.e. having one less ability in the fight or not utilising your CCs) nullifies all of your previous work. This is imho the biggest reason why you don’t want to be locked out or be overburdened with too much information - you want to have a clear mind and fast reflexes when you get a CC proc, because those bring more damage.
    Edited: June 18, 2022

  14. I decided to dump this post here, so that I can keep the comment section of my guide somewhat cleen.
    RANDOM COMMENTARY



    https://web.archive.org/web/20090209..._rotation/p19/
    https://web.archive.org/web/20090311...s_rotation/p30

    ^The topic of idol swapping was discussed before. People outright rejected it because, apparently, it reseted the swing timer. After rewatching some of my videos, where I tested this manoeuvre, I am able to confirm that this is true. In the past, I've combined the macro for the GotVV-shift with an idol, and I was able to confirm that I could overlap their downtimes. HOWEVER, I want to make a video just so I could see whether there's yet another delay, which I'm not acknowledging with the propsed solution.


    https://web.archive.org/web/20101110..._rotation/p52/
    You must be placing very little value on combo points for the break-even point to be so low. I made a very rough estimate of the value of a combo point by subtracting the DPE of Shred from the DPE of a 5 CP Ferocious Bite and dividing by 5.
    This player also evaluated the CPs like me, though he used the DPE approach. Still, it's good to know that my hypothesis wasn't too far from the truth.


    First few pages mention some kind of a Mangle-centered build (using 2pt6 items) with 3/3 Improved Mangle. Now, I'm not going to do any calculations around it, since it mostly affects the Naxxramas phase, and people would sacrifice a lot of stats, but if someone wants to learn more about it, then can read the first 5-6 pages.



    https://web.archive.org/web/20090221...s_rotation/p23

    ^Some kind of an addon (Facemauler) is mentioned here, and people seemed to like it. I'm not an expert on addons, but if someone is interested, you can click on the link above and read more about it.


    https://web.archive.org/web/20090220...s_rotation/p7/
    it's ya boi again - a civilian - the person, whose initial formula for the GotVV-shift w/o the /stopattack command became the cornerstone of this technique


    Ok, I admit that I'm brain ******ed after reading his post, but it seems that this is the information I was looking for. Can someone decipher it, i.e. explain it with simple words?

    - what could he have meant by "units of damage"? Was it necessary to add that "d"? Why not leave the damage of Shred as "s" and the one for Rip as "r"?
    - if I ignore the confusion above, I can somewhat understand why he wrote Shred as "Shred damage - energy - CPs = 0", though he didn't consider "e" as the damage for that amount of energy and instead just energy. Same goes to "1+t", which he didn't obrserve as the CP damage but just the number of CPs based on the crit%, which is like comparing apples to oranges imho.
    - the third thing, which I don't understand is this:

    From this we can eliminate d to write a relation between e and c,

    c = (42r-30s)/(5s+(1+t)r) e
    How did you "eliminate" a multiplier out of thin air?

    I honestly wished that I had picked math and informatics in school so that I could understand his logic. For now, I'll stick to the simple idea that the CPs are based on the value of [FB - (shred:35/42)]/5. As I've explained a few lines above, Melthu had the same idea with the difference that he used DPE. If someone manages to explain "a civilian"'s equation, I would have a better understanding how to evaluate SR and would correct the false information.




    Just putting it out here. In EJ, only FFF, NG, and GotW were mentioned. Barkskin wasn't. I wanted to make a video, where I showed you that I have actually tested this interaction and was able to confirm it. Also, third time's the charm. :P



    Gear-related
    Spoiler: Show
    In the past, the BiS lists for Naxx, Ulduar, and ToC featured gem and food recommendations instead of a final list because my initial idea was to offer alternatives which could prove to be useful for someone, who's still gearing. After all, a FM season lasts 3 months on average, and not all reach BiS status. However, I stepped back from that idea, because my recommendations might have brought nothing but confusion among players.

    Although I have become more open to the idea of undercapping hit and exp, I'd still advise players to bring the avoidance as close to 0% as possible. You can expect my proposed lists to differ from other people's because of it. Yes, very often there isn't a smooth solution to reach (or get close to) the aforementioned caps, which is why I don't mind it that much in the patches prior to icc. However, in 3.3.5 you don't really have a good excuse to get on RNG's bad side by undercapping hit and expertise (229 hr is fine for Alliance). This is why, back when I was active, I always focused on in-game tricks and on utilising my CCs, energy, and CPs efficiently, which was how I was able to inform you about the CP-value, the energy investment for FB and its timing, the 4-CP FB etc in the first place. Of course, this is just my PoV. Someone else wouldn't hesitate to increase their avoidance in favour of maximising their offensive stats, hence why I've included different gemming options for both the Haste and the GotVV-shifting cats. I just hope you know what you're doing and not just blindly copy-pasting BiS builds w/o putting any thought into it.


    Kova's ingame clips
    Spoiler: Show
    Regarding the videos where I showcased the GotVV-shift and made misplays at times - idk about you, but whenever a teacher pointed out common mistakes back when I attended school, I was able to recognise them with ease and quickly learnt to avoid them. This is why I like some of the videos I've included here - by commenting on the good and on the bad plays, you can see which decisions led to smoother cat cycles and which caused unnecessary challenges.


    Including calculations in the guide
    Spoiler: Show
    After re-reading my guide, I considered that the section regarding FB and its proper timing & energy investment needed to be trimmed down, as the previous version was quite similar to my post in the theorycrafting thread and might have confused new players unnecessarily. That said, I'm confident that I should keep the calculations in the sections "feral's openers" and "the value of a CP" in order to illustrate my conclusions. After all, it's one thing to say "this is bad, don't do it" and another to show actual numbers so that people can get a better idea of the losses.


    Timing FB and Rip when the boss is about to die (food for thought)
    Spoiler: Show
    I woke up one morning with the feeling of doubt that I had misevaluated the timing of FB vs Rip when the boss is about to die. By that I mean those X seconds before we kill the boss and have to choose between either FB or Rip, depending on which inflicts more damage. In the guide I said that we should prioritise FB when there are no more than 15 seconds remaining of the boss fight. This is because I calculated the timing like so:

    28888.13(FB damage)/5,103.90(individual Rip ticks) = 5.66 => Rip needs at least 6 ticks to outperform FB with ICC gear, and since each tick needs 2 seconds to register, the boss needs to die in 12 seconds or later [I said 15 in the guide because TimeToDie doesn't give you the most accurate data as it's measured in raid dps, which can change]

    Let's observe two hypothetical scenarios:

    (1) FB -> Shred -> Shred -> Shred -> FB (196 energy)
    (2) Rip -> Shred -> Shred -> Shred -> FB (181 energy)
    28888.13 < (5,103.90*X) + (15929.28*15/42)
    23,199.1 < (5,103.90*X)
    4.54 < X

    If we consider the energy difference being a factor, then Rip would outperform FB with 5 ticks. I even said that in "Nuances in feral cat's gameplay" when it comes to DoT clipping, but here's the thing - if a fight lasts 10 seconds or less, then we're tight on energy, and we might not be able to make use of those 15 energy as efficiently as I've described above.


    Timestamps: 4:02, 4:12

    10 seconds before the fight concluded, I cast Rip. Now, in the video above I only got 4 ticks, but let's imagine that the fight had lasted a few milliseconds longer, and my SR hadn't expired. I might have had 60-65 energy, but certainly no way near 77 for both FB and Shred. In other words, the 15 extra energy translated as ~3000 (from FB's second effect). Let's compare the numbers again:

    28888.13 < (5,103.90*X) + 3000
    25888.13 < 5,103.90*X
    5.07 < X

    A bit over 5 ticks, so I think I should keep the 6-tick (or 12 seconds) part in my guide. At least, this is 100% safe and will always guarantee a damage gain over FB.
    In this train of thought, I must admit that I was also a bit sceptical how I initially evaluated the number of missed Rip ticks in favour of FB. I said to myself "But what if I just cast Shred - I would just sacrifice 1-2 CPs, and Rip tick > CP-value". Then I remembered that Shred also costs energy, so the damage difference cannot be narrowed down to just some sacrificed Rip ticks or CPs. This is how I determined how many Rip ticks a person can hypothetically afford to sacrifice in favour of FB:

    Sacrificing Rip ticks in favour of FB
    FB -- (Shred*35/42) = X
    X/(Rip/11) = maximum number of sacrificable ticks {divide it by 13 if you have t7}

    Yes, this also acknowledges the absence/presence of arp and the Rip idol depending on the phase you're playing in.

    17/02/2023 Update: While returning from work, I contemplated over the penalty of FB vs Rip and letting Rip drop for a certain amount of time. It's true that casting Shred would cost energy, but the Rip-play would also have 1.76 less CPs. This is why I decided to create the following pattern:

    (5 CPs) -> Shred -> Rip -> 3x Shreds -> FB {223 energy}

    (5 CPs) -> FB -> 3x Shreds -> Rip -> Shred (1.76 CPs) {223 energy}

    I take my words back. The penalty is definitely CPs (5.4k on average) vs Rip ticks (5.1k on average), which in this case would mean that a player could only afford to sacrifice a single Rip tick. However, it really depends on how many Shreds you cast prior to Rip. For example, if you AA the boss and cast Shred so that you don't overcap your energy while waiting patiently for Rip to expire, but then you get a CC proc, you'd waste more CPs that way. Moreover, if you're a GotVV-shifter like me, then you won't AA like ret paladins in Vanilla or in TBC all the long - you'll cast GotW whenever you have the opportunity.


    Timestamp: 2:20. 7 ****ing seconds before Rip expired!!!!! No ****ing **** I would have played it differently if it had happened in an actual boss encounter. Those 7 seconds would have easily meant two GotVV-shifts, i.e. two Shreds with CPs. If a flowershifter doesn't go for a FB here, then that would be a loss of 5 CPs (two Shreds from the GotVV-shifts and one Rake from the pooled energy), which the formula above already covered quite well.

    Man, timing FB and acknowledging the Rip-penalty became even more complicated than what I initially thought. I guess, it depends on how many Shreds are cast at 5 CPs prior to refreshing Rip and thus how many CPs are wasted on average + whether someone is a GotVV-shifter or not would play a huge role here.


    GotVV-shift in 10-man groups
    Spoiler: Show
    Ok, I underestimated the power of the GotVV-shift in a 10-man raid. I thought it should only be done in 25-man, and bearweaving would beat it in 10-man. The last statement is still true, but it depends on how many pets are present in said 10-man grp:

    GotVV in a 10-man group:

    • 0 NPCs: 59.98% success chance;
    • 1 NPC: 63.48% success chance;
    • 2 NPCs: 66.67% success chance

    0.923*15983 + 0.923*5514 + 3*3511 + 3*15983*3.5/60 (average OoC-Shred value from cat AAs) + 3*5514*3.5/60 (average OoC-CP value from cat AAs) = 34,137

    enrage-less bearweaver: AA (4276) + 2*15983*3.5/(60/2.5) (average OoC-Shred value from bear AAs) + 2*5514*3.5/(60/2.5) (average OoC-CP value from bear AAs) + Mangle (6854) + Maul (10691) = 28,091
    I will replace the 0.923 (proc % for a CC from GotW in a 25-man raid with 3 pets) with 0.5998, 0.6348, and 0.6667 respectively:

    (0.5998*15983) + (0.5998*5514) + (3*3511) + (3*15983*3.5/60) + (3*5514*3.5/60) = 27,188.8756

    (0.6348*15983) + (0.6348*5514) + (3*3511) + (3*15983*3.5/60) + (3*5514*3.5/60) = 27,941.2706

    (0.6667 *15983) + (0.6667 *5514) + (3*3511) + (3*15983*3.5/60) + (3*5514*3.5/60) = 28,627.0249

    {08.01.2023 - those numbers are true if we lose 2 AAs per GotVV-shift, which is not the norm. Depending on the delay delay, we could lose like 1.5 AAs, so the GotVV-shift is still better than bearweaving in 10-man, though not as consistent as in 25--man.}


    Chicken vs Thermal bomb
    Spoiler: Show
    I just have a small urge to mention http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=10725, and why I prefer it in comparison to http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=42641. Well, let's start with the bomb:

    2188-2812 dmg (2.5k dmg on average) vs 1150-1500 (1325 dmg on average) from http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41119

    If someone doesn't go with Goblin Engineering, that person would miss out on 1175 dmg per affected enemy targets. However, I want to concentrate on single-target atm, so I'll ignore the AoE bit. You see, the reason why I prefer the chicken is because it has the potential to grant you more damage. As I've said in the guide, it gives your entire party group a 5% haste buff for 4 minutes IF the chicken squawks. The overall damage gain can be summarised like so:

    [{more AAs & potential bonus procs (YOU)} + {more AAs & potential bonus procs (MELEE 2)} + {more AAs & potential bonus procs (MELEE 3)} + {more AAs & potential bonus procs (MELEE 4)} + {more AAs & potential bonus procs (MELEE 5)}]/4

    I divide it by 4 at the end because the chicken's ICD is 20 minutes, whereas the Thermal bomb - 5 (20 divided by 5 is 4). Now, it's kinda hard to give you accurate numbers when I don't know what the average white swing is for another melee class, but for the sake of simplicity let's imagine a party group full with cats. The BiS Tauren safe build for a GotVV-shifting cat deals 3474.445 damage per AA (0.6964 att speed) and 15849.15 per Shred (this will be used in the formula "number of AAs*shred*3.5/60" in order to calculate the bonus OoC proc damage). Let's imagine a 3-min fight. With the 5% melee haste, the cat's att speed would become:

    0.6964/1.05=0.66

    Number of AAs in a 3-min fight:
    180/0.6964 = ~258 (no squawk)
    180/0.66 = ~272 (with the squawk)
    ------
    14 gained AAs

    So the damage gain from the Gnomish Chicken in a group full of cats would be:

    ((14*3474.445) + (14*15849.15*3.5/60))*5/4 = 76,982 (compare it to the 1175 damage difference between both bombs, and you'll see my point)

    Ok, ok. I will exclude the OoC proc damage just because I don't know whether other melee classes get similar powerful procs. I will concentrate only on the AA damage gain:

    (14*3474.445)*5/4 = 60,803 (compare it to the 1175 damage difference between both bombs, and you'll see my point)

    Now, here's a counterargument. Since the squawk isn't guaranteed, let's imagine that we use the chicken, and we don't get the buff. That would mean a single proc within 40 minutes or:

    (14*3474.445)*5/8 = 30,401

    aaaaaaaand another whiff (i.e. a single proc within 60 mins):

    (14*3474.445)*5/12 = 20,268

    aaaaaaaand another whiff (i.e. a single proc within 80 mins):

    (14*3474.445)*5/16 = 15,201

    aaaaaaaand another whiff (i.e. a single proc within 100 mins):

    (14*3474.445)*5/20 = 12,161

    aaaaaaaand another whiff (i.e. a single proc within 120 mins):

    (14*3474.445)*5/24 = 10,134

    I'll stop here because I think I've made my point. Now, there's an argument that this isn't intended. According to the paladin EJ page, there had been a hot fix in the 3.3 patch that didn't allow the melee haste buff to stack with the 20% from windfury and icy talons. However, this was from 3.3 - there are some comments on wowhead that claim that the chicken worked in Cata, so there's a possibility that in 3.3.5 the interaction was added again. Admittedly, idk if the chicken still provides the buff, but the last time I received it was back in September before I stopped playing WoW, so it could still be in the game. I don't think that this is an exploit for two main reasons - 1) the squawk is not always guaranteed, 2) getting the squawk means nothing if the attempt you got it in ends up being a wipe.


    Rake is about to expire, but SR and Rip last ~10 seconds, and we have 5 CPs. What to do?
    Spoiler: Show

    I promised him to answer his question, but I never did. Sorry, Killy. :C

    This particular conundrum has three solutions depending on how you approach it.
    - you're an aggressive GotVV-shifter like me, and you bite the boss, so that you build your CPs anew (mostly recommended with ICC gear, but it also depends on the timers);
    - you cast Rake at 5 CPs;
    - you refresh SR.

    The following might not be a good explanation for the case Killy described, but I'll use it regardless:

    With raid buffs, my ICC cat would deal 14053 damage with Shred on average. So, spending 25 energy for SR would "cost" me 8364.88 damage on average. In addition to that, we also spend CPs, which under normal circumstances could be spent on a 5CP-FB. As I've clarified before, this could mean 2848 per CP or 4933 on average per CP-generator (with 73.2% crit). Here's the full picture:

    • 14 seconds: 8364.88+(1*2848) = 11212.88 (an investment of 800.92 dps)
    • 19 seconds: 8364.88+(2*2848) = 14060.88 (an investment of 740.05 dps)
    • 24 seconds: 8364.88+(3*2848) = 16908.88 (an investment of 704.54 dps)
    • 29 seconds: 8364.88+(4*2848) = 19756.88 (an investment of 681.27 dps)
    • 34 seconds: 8364.88+(5*2848) = 22604.88 (an investment of 664.85 dps)
    Please look at the coloured numbers. As I've said above, a CP with my current gear would be equal to 4933 on average. If I refresh SR, say, 8 seconds before it expires, then I'd "lose" 664.85*8 = 5,318.8 damage, which is worse than the missed CPs from Rake {this is with a 5-CP SR, btw}. SR needs to expire in max 5-6 seconds so that you can afford to refresh it.


    Berserk at the very beginning of a fight
    Spoiler: Show
    Even though I already clarified it in the guide, a few days ago I saw this in the simcraft:


    My opinion on this approach: First of all, back when I was writing this guide for the first time, pre-popping Berserk one second prior to a boss fight also went through my mind. I considered that this is the only way to overcome the initial GCD caused by this ability. Then I thought about something else, which immediately invalidated that argument - human error. Not all boss fights have a scripted event similar to the one on DBS and the LK. In most encounters, the bosses occupy a certain zone and we need to go close to them if we want to start the fight. They move towards the tanks and need to be repositioned. This is bad news if you prepop Berserk because you cannot always cast it precisely 1 second in advance. As a result, the big CD will be desynchronised, and you will have one less ability with a discount. Even if we exclude human error as a factor, you'd still overflow your energy for absolutely no good reason. The credo, which I always follow, is this:

    Energy & CPs & CCs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AP buffs


    FFF proccing OoC (12.04.2023 UPDATED)
    Spoiler: Show
    A few weeks ago, a discord guildie of mine brought this video to my attention:



    This became a reality in Classic:

    Omen of Clarity will now always trigger when Faerie Fire (Feral) is used on a non-player-controlled target. It will no longer trigger from casting Gift of the Wild.

    Developers’ notes: This change is intended to make Feral DPS gameplay more accessible to the average WotLK Classic player and resolve many of the design challenges created by "Bear-weaving" and "Flower-weaving" combat strategies. It is expected to be a slight buff to the best Feral DPS players around 5% to 10% depending on encounter, and a larger buff to players who were not employing these strategies.
    Source: https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...s-april-5-2023

    GotW can proc OoC again:
    Source: https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/news/f...332396?webhook

    There's a lot to cover here. What I'm about to write next are just my random thoughts on these changes because I enjoy theorycrafting. All of this is irrelevant for warmane because a) FFF doesn't proc OoC, and b) warmane doesn't copy-paste Classic, and the staff doesn't implement changes from the official servers here. I also don't play in Classic, and my knowledge of the mechanics there is very limited. For that reason, you may take my opinion with a grain of salt. Thank you, Mesulid, for giving me food for thought.
    If FFF procs OoC 100% of the time, then the feral opener would definitely change. I could see it becoming sth like this:

    TF-Berserk:
    1) GotW pre-pull
    2) Mangle
    3) SR
    4) Rake
    5) FFF
    6) Shred
    7) Shred
    8) Rip
    9) TF + Shred
    10) Berserk
    ...
    Berserk ends -> FFF
    Berserk-TF:
    1) GotW pre-pull
    2) Mangle
    3) SR
    4) Rake
    5) FFF
    6) Shred
    7) Berserk
    ...
    Berserk ends -> FFF
    The reason for that lies in the concept that we use CDs as early as possible, in order to get an extra one throughout the course of the fight. If FFF isn't used prior to Berserk, then that would translate as one less CC. Syncing FFF's downtime with Berserk's uptime would be the most optimal play because after Berserk, you would immediately follow it up with another FFF. No, casting FFF during Berserk would be a misplay because it would trigger a GCD, which would eat a whole second of Berserk's uptime. Barkskin would still remain the best pick in that situation.

    Personally, I think there could be an even better way to do TF-Berserk:

    1) GotW pre-pull
    2) Mangle
    3) SR
    4) Rake
    5) FFF
    6) Shred
    7) Shred
    8) Rip
    9) TF + Shred
    10) Shred
    11) FFF
    12) Shred
    13) 4/5-CP SR
    14) Rake
    15) GotW
    Gather 4/5 CPs for a FB
    ...
    Pop Berserk a few seconds before Rip is about to expire (make sure you use another FFF prior to Berserk).
    Spoiler: Show
    I decided to delete the part about different sub-openers depending on how many CPs are used for SR. The only difference was for 2CP SR at start, where I suggested this:

    2CP SR
    1) GotW pre-pull
    2) Mangle
    3) 2CP SR
    4) Rake
    5) FFF
    6) Shred
    7) Shred
    8) Rip
    9) TF + Shred
    10) Shred
    11) FFF
    12) Shred
    13) Rake
    14) FB
    15) NG (if you get a CC, use it on Shred)
    16) FFF (once it expires)
    17) Shred
    18) Shred
    19) SR
    ...
    Pop Berserk a few seconds before Rip is about to expire (make sure you use another FFF prior to Berserk).
    However, this wastes CPs at 9-13, which is not ideal. Normally, refreshing SR should happen when this finisher has 6 seconds or less duration, but in comparison to the aforementioned opener refreshing it at 8-9 would be the lesser evil.
    I remember reading in EJ (either somewhere here or here; cba to find the exact quote) that Berserk is best used when both Rip and SR are about to expire, and I agree with that statement. If you have a lot of CCs at start, and you don't have any difficulties casting SR or Rip, then Berserk should be delayed a bit, else you'd only spam Shred and waste CPs for nothing. However, this is assuming that you'd still have the same amount of Berserks even if you hadn't delayed it. If you decide to postpone the big CD for the sake of efficiency, but as a result you have one less by the end of the fight, then that would be a misplay.

    This reminds me. Aligning Berserk with trinket procs is not an argument worth considering. Since you can obtain CCs with FFF, in the first 15 seconds you will always have sth to do. BL would most likely be used at start, so the chances to get a CC proc from AAs would be even higher. Being able to snapshot the second Rip with Hysteria and/or DBW is far more important (I know that Classic isn't in the ICC patch yet, but I wanted to point it out anyway), so the first Berserk should be used to achieve this.

    {12.04.2023. UPDATE} As I'm updating this post, the nerf to GotW has been reverted, and it can proc OoC in Classic once again. This is great news because casting GotW pre-pull and during the bosses' downtimes would still be a thing w/o overcomplicating feral cat's rotation. GotW being able to proc OoC again would mean that you could use it between FFFs, in order to get more CCs throughout the course of the fight. Now, I know what you're thinking: 'Why the hell would I use GotW if I can rely on FFF'? Yes, it's true that FFF is not only more reliable than GotW, but it also doesn't cost you any AAs. However, the 6-sec CD makes it less flexible. Obtaining CCs can occur within a fixed time frame, but if you're in a desperate need for CPs (say, SR and Rip are going to expire soon), and you doubt that you'd gather enough on time, GotW would be a better solution than NG. FFF triggers a GCD, and you have to sit through another GCD when utilising the CC proc from that FFF. So, 4 seconds remain until the next FFF. Flowershifting lasts 3 seconds (GotW lasts around 1.3 seconds due to spell haste, whereas cat form - 1.5 seconds) or ~4 if you consider the CC proc from GotW. As you can see, you can fill the gap between two FFFs and still have the time to cast the next w/o any delays. Even if it's delayed, you won't lose any FFFs over the course of the fight (on paper, FFF can be used 10 times per minute, but due to human error and other delays it's impossible to achieve that).

    Look, I'm not telling you to use GotW on every possible occasion between FFFs, but sometimes you'll find yourself doing absolutely nothing except pooling energy. In those situations, it would best to perform the GotVV-shift. The requirements and other possible tricks for doing flowershifting optimally can be found in the previous page.
    Again, those are my thoughts regarding Classic. It's irrelevant for warmane. Even if the devs allow FFF to proc OoC, its proc chance would most likely be 6% (which was the case in the past), and this wouldn't replace GotW:

    0.9392(shred damage) + 0.9392*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP) + 0.9392(Oathbinder swing) + 0.0608*[0.9953(shred damage) + 0.9953*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP) + (Oathbinder swing) - (number of missed AAs with the second GotVV cast)*(AAaverage damage) - (missed AAs with the second cast prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(shred damage) - (missed AAs with the second cast prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP)] - 0.9392*(number of missed AAs)*(AA damage) - 0.9392(number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(shred damage) - 0.9392(number of AAs prior to Shred)*(3.5/60)*(average amount of CPs per ability)*(damage output of 1 CP)
    (0.9392*15930.13) + (0.9392*5,496.12) + (0.9392*4,929.5) + 0.0608*(15,855.88 + 5,470.5 + 4,929.5 - 12,585.71 - 4,739.2 - 1,635.1) - (0.9392*3.6*3496.03) - (0.9392*3.6*15930.13*3.5/60) - (0.9392*3.6*5,496.12*3.5/60) = 9,150.47

    Before I end this subsection, I'd like to mention one more thing. On discord, I got asked if people would have still used FFF off GCD had it not been nerfed on warmane. My answer was mostly negative. This is because spamming GotVV is more reliable than a spell with ~6% proc chance. Quick maths:

    3.5/(60/1) = 0.05833 (proc chance)
    15930.13 (Shred damage) + 5,496.12 (CP-value from that Shred) = 21,426.25
    21,426.25*0.05833 = 1,250 (average damage gain from FFF)

    If I were to subtract that from 9,150.47 (i.e. damage gain from the weakest GotVV-shift variation, aka the "uninterrupted swing"), I'd get 7,900.47, which means that the player would still be encouraged to spam the druid buff. Does it mean that the loss of FFF is irrelevant? No, it's not. Even if GotVV is more reliable, I would have considered using FFF 1-2 seconds before refreshing a DoT. This is because in that scenario I would have just pooled energy and AA-ed the boss (= I would have been rather passive), so it would have been better to fill the gap with something safe. Same goes to NG (with the difference that its initial GCD is 1.5 seconds, which is affected by spell haste as well, and has a proc chance of 8.75% {could be ~6%}, resulting in 1875 damage gain on average). As for Barkskin - imho the best time to use it is right after a swing in cat form while waiting for a GCD from a cat ability like Shred, Mangle, Rake etc to end (assuming that we don't need the actual buff in a fight). Doing so would prevent the CC proc from being overwritten by an AA, and in case of a whiff we could immediately react to it by casting GotVV.
    Edited: January 12, 2024 Reason: removed some of the contents from this post

  15. PERSONAL ANALYSIS OF SAVAGE ROAR

    In the last couple of days, I was inspired to find the answer to yet another puzzling question - how to use SR during a fight, Obviously, I don't mean to ask whether it should be used with 4/5 CPs because this is common knowledge. However, due to certain conditions (RNG, boss mechanics, Rip duration) we cannot always generate that amount of CPs w/o any penalty. So, my question is - is it better to have an extra unbuffed CP-generator for SR so that we have more seconds to spare with, or should we cast it with 1-2 and never let it drop? Let's start from the beginning:



    SR costs 25 energy, and it grants us 5 seconds for each CP we invest in it. If we use SR too often in fights, then we would have less energy to spend on our spamming ability, aka Shred. For that reason, I'm going to consider the cost of 25 energy to be an investment based on the Shred damage:

    Energy investment for SR = 25/42*Shred
    VVith raid buffs, my ICC cat would deal 14053 damage with Shred on average. So, spending 25 energy for SR would "cost" me 8364.88 damage on average.

    In addition to that, we also spend CPs, which under normal circumstances could be used on a 5CP-FB. By using the proposed formula for evaluating the CPs, we can see just how much potential damage we invest in this ability:

    IV. VVhat's the value of a Combo Point?

    14053:42=334.6 (Shred damage for 1 energy)
    334.6*35=11711 (Shred damage for 35 energy)
    25951-11711=14240 (additional damage from the Bite, i.e. the 5CPs)

    This is the thing, which we need to observe. So, knowing that 5CPs constitute that amount of damage, then we divide it by 5 and get 2848 for one CP or 5696 for 2. But, my Shreds generate around 1.732 CPs on average, so one Shred would grant me an additional 4933 damage on average.
    In other words, on top of the initial 8364.88 damage, I would "sacrifice" 2848 per CP. Here's the full picture:

    SR
    • 14 seconds: 8364.88+(1*2848) = 11212.88 (an investment of 800.92 damage per second)
    • 19 seconds: 8364.88+(2*2848) = 14,060.88 (an investment of 740.05 damage per second)
    • 24 seconds: 8364.88+(3*2848) = 16908.88 (an investment of 704.54 damage per second)
    • 29 seconds: 8364.88+(4*2848) = 19756.88 (an investment of 681.27 damage per second)
    • 34 seconds: 8364.88+(5*2848) = 22604.88 (an investment of 664.85 damage per second)

    So, the more CPs we spend on SR, the smaller the dps investment for it becomes. This shows why it's worth refreshing this finisher with 4/5 CPs. VVhat about going from 4-CP to 5-CP SR? I would definitely lose some CP value doing so. In order to describe it better, I am going to consider the fact that my feral cat has around 73.2% chance for a crit with raid buffs and -4.8% crit suppression, so on average I would gain 1.732 CPs or 4933 damage.

    4CP SR + 1.732 CPs = 5CP SR with extra spending
    19756.88 + 4933 = 24,689.88 (an investment of 726.17 damage per second)
    Yikes. This shows that under normal circumstances it's not a good idea to go from 4 to 5 SR. However, sometimes we would be forced to do it, especially when we get CCs. If we wait long enough for the 4-CP SR to expire, then our CC might get overwritten, which would be the worst outcome. Of course, this mostly boils down to luck as we don't know whether the next AA would proc a CC, but it's something important to note. The same is true when our Berserk is active - we cannot afford to wait for SR to expire first before using another ability since it would waste precious seconds of our big CD.

    Now, I want to see what it would be like if I decide to use an unbuffed ability in order to generate extra CPs:

    Penalty from using unbuffed CP-generators to generate additional CPs:
    • Shred: 14053/1.33 = 10566 (3487 loss)
    • Rake: 18444/1.33 = 13868 (4576 loss)
    • Mangle: 9529/1.33 = 7165 (2364 loss)
    • AA: 3030/1.33 = 2278 (752 loss)

    I'm going to consciously simplify my math. Even though ferals have different attack speeds, I'm going to assume 1 per second or "1*yellow GCD + 1*AA" penalty for every unbuffed CP-generator. So, is it a good idea to go from 2-CP SR to 3 or 4? If I use the same "73.2% chancee for a critical strike" logic as above, then by casting an ability I would have 3CPs (26.8%) and 4CPs (73.2%). Let's calculate the average SR duration based on this:

    (24*0.268) + (29*0.732) = 27.66 seconds on average
    Now, if I have 2 CPs and decide to use a yellow unbuffed ability to increase the duration of my SR, this is how the investment would look like:

    Mangle example:
    2364 (Mangle) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 22,109.88
    22,109.88/27.66 = 799.34

    Shred example:
    3487 (Shred) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 23,232.88
    23,232.88/27.66 = 839.95

    Rake example:
    4576 (Rake) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 14,060.88 (investment for 2-CP SR) = 24,321.88
    24,321.88/27.66 = 879.32
    Yikes. All of them are worse than their initial 2-CP counterpart, and two are even more devastating than a 1-CP SR. However, I am going to view that example too just in case:

    1-CP SR -> 2 CPs (26.8%) or 3 CPs (73.2%)
    (19*0.268) + (24*0.732) = 22.66 seconds on average
    Now, if I have 1 CP and decide to use a yellow unbuffed ability to increase the duration of my SR, this is how the investment would look like:

    Mangle example:
    2364 (Mangle) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 19,261.88
    19,261.88/22.66 = 850.04

    Shred example:
    3487 (Shred) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 20,384.88
    20,384.88/22.66 = 899.6

    Rake example:
    4576 (Rake) + 752 (AA) + 4933 (average CP value) + 11212.88 (investment for 1-CP SR) = 21,473.88
    21,473.88/22.66 = 947.66

    Conclusions:
    1) The more CPs we invest in SR, the smaller the dps sanction becomes.
    2) Going from 4-CP SR -> 5-CP SR is a misplay unless you suspect that a CC is going to be overwritten, or Berserk is active.
    3) Having two enablers at start for SR is a misplay despite how many CPs you might get for SR. Same goes to using unbuffed yellow abilities midfight.
    Edited: February 15, 2023 Reason: minor edit

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