WotLK Shaman talent didnt work

[ikdealerrr]

Good day,
I would like to fix Frostband weapon - it do not proc "elemental devestation" talent and it should.

1) Prove: Enchant weapon: bl-ackmagic do proc from frostbrand weapon and it has completly same requirements.

Thank you and have a nice day

[Persivaln]

Nothing wrong here.
Elemental devastation procs only from offensive spells of shaman himself, those that you have to manualy cast (lightnings, shocks). While they all do dmg, there is difference between them. Offencive cause direct dmg, while harmful is considered as effect.

[klidas]

Well thats not correct at all, it should work not only because on other servers it work but if you read it correctly there is written: "Non-periodic offensive spells crits..." which means any dmg as long as its not periodic which frost-band is certainly not(and also its considered as spell), should apply this effect even enchantments as icebreaker if crit which is very rare, I was wondering about it too thank you Ikdealer for posting and addressing this matter.

[OhieMitzen]

Well, for what it's worth, I think Frostbrand is counted as weapon enchant effect, rather than a spell.

Patch 3.3.0 (08-Dec-2009): This enchantment now sometimes increases haste rating for the caster rather than inflicting the caster's target with a damage-over-time effect. It is also now triggered by landing any harmful spell rather than inflicting damage with a spell.

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w..._-_Black_Magic

It would seem you'd need to cast a spell, and for the spell to land (hit) on the target to get Black Magic to proc. So, when you cast Frostbrand, you're not exactly landing any hits on the target. So Frostbrand is counted as periodic spell damage, or as periodic weapon enchant spell (effect) in this case, I think. Consider this: You don't make damage with Frostbrand when you cast it, but you cause periodic damage with it, when you hit with weapon that's enchanted with it.

[klidas]

well in your post there is different thing:

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w..._-_Black_Magic

where is said:
"Only procs for caster direct damage spells. "Physical magic" (paladin Hammer of Righteousness) and DOTs will not proc this".

Frostbrand is also direct; there is no website which is saying that frostbrand is periodic (in other words DOT) because its direct dmg direct means here it's not channeling or periodical dmg from an already applied dot.

I can prove that by warlock spell corruption everybody thinks its periodical but the application of "corruption" is actually a direct spell which will trigger black magic - you can test that anytime you want. I tried that on warmane many times and IT WILL TRIGGER BLACK MAGIC.

and since as you found black magic is proc-ing only from direct dmg and frostbrand weapon will trigger it. Then there can be only 1 conclusion which is that: frostbrand is a direct dmg.

Which proves that frostbrand should proc that talent.

More info about impact:
If you see the proc rate on that same page as you found (about frostbrand itself), there is actually written this:
"The proc rate appears to be normalized to roughly 9 procs per minute."

If we count that as base and lets say count +3 because of usually haste of enhancement shaman we get roughly 12 procs per minute if we count that average enhancement SPELL crit in bis pvp gear is around 30% and we count AVERAGE resil reduce chance as 12% we get 18% chance of critting with that enchant, that means that we will get proc 2 crit per minute (+ - 1 crit that depend on person resil) which is only as pleasant surprise, but nevertheless pleasant.

[Persivaln]

Again. To trigger Devastation talent you need to land crit with offensive spell - i.e. spell that you cast onve to deal DIRECT damage right the moment it HITS target and belongs to shaman skillbook.
There is nothing wrong here, honestly. Frostbrand deals spell damage so it procs Black magic. But even rogue poisons are supposed to proc it, they are spell dmg (nature) and use spell hit cap of 17%.
It is thing called "wording" that actualy taken into account by WoW devs.
For example, initial damage of Flame shock or shadow priests plague can proc direct dmg activated trinkets, while spells itself are DoTs.

[klidas]

Look Im not here to argue - fact is that its working correctly on other servers so far only warmane does not have it (at least on servers I played - Yes i know this proves nothing) and since it's not that much of importance there is no need to get hot about it, but lets get through it little bit once more to understand each other:

This is for the talent itself:

"Your offensive spell crits will increase your chance to get a critical strike with melee attacks by 9% for 10sec."

as you can see it says the same as your part: "you need to land crit with offensive spell".

What is frostbrand: its enchant and it do proc harmfull spell with slow effect so to get to the frostbrand properties to proc that tallent it has all requirements because its Direct (that I proved in previous post), its spell (well I hope I hope we agree on this :D ), and it's offensive effect (there is no doubt about it right?).

But you are saying that since the effect itself is not coming from you pressing the button of that actual spell it should not proc it - you can even say that enchant itself is like outsourcing right?

Can you please send me a link from the official website where is this rule written? I spent quite some time reading about this matter because it's interesting for me and I found nothing. (I found only speculations and most of them were that since it's not specified it should proc - but that's only speculation and not valid info).

I'm not only asking if you have valid info but I m also asking because I have completely same example yet it work on warmane:

From your theory you are saying that since its not part of your active spell it cannot proc Elemental Devastation, but that has to be very wrong since if you will use:
[Scroll of Enchant Weapon - Icebreaker] - this enchantment will proc that talent! This in complete and unwavering prove that even frostbrand should proc it - since this 2 points I proved:

1) Frostbrand is: Direct, Offensive SPELL. (proved with corruption post up)
2) Talent "Elemental Devastation" Do not care about the source of dmg If it is caused by a player (proved with [Scroll of Enchant Weapon - Icebreaker]).

So far you did not give me any evidence from the official website - please not forum or discussions that this talent cannot be how I called it "OUTSOURCED".

Conclusion:
Frostbrand Weapon has all requirements to trigger talent Elemental Devastation.

Thank you very much for your opinion and very good discussion. I'm rly looking forward to hearing from you. :)

[angrylol]

"Logic" hardly works here.
Just look at Seal of Corruption and Deadly Poison. Same wording, but Corruption will proc secondary effect before is stacked to 5, Deadly Poison will not. By wording Corruption is bugged, but everyone is really adamant that it worked like that and is supposed to work like that.

But if you want some actual resolution, create bug report with all your proofs from credible sources, eventually it will get fixed.

[vsetoq]

Frostband, neither Flametongue are supposed to proc Elemental Devastation talent. You can check easily this by some retail log. The truth is - some tooltips in-game are really weird and inaccurately explained of how some abilities or talents work. Take for example Reign of the Dead trinket. Although the tooltip says "it will gain a stack each time you cause a non-periodic spell critical strike (with 2 sec icd) , Flametongue will still proc it but this is not a case with Elemental Devastation and Flametongue/Frostband .. .so ... I advice people to check retail logs rather than blindly believing in tooltips.

[klidas]

Can you please provide link? where is this written? Ofc with current patch as Blackrock have. (every patch is different)

about "Reign of the Dead" every usable procable item have this icd - but now you are comparing item and talent. Thats for a new disscusion.

Just lets look at it as it is what is difference between Enchant Weapon - Icebreaker and Frostbrand Weapon?
Well both are enchants, both doing direct dmg, both are spells and only 1 difference rly one doing frost dmg and other doing fire dmg - so why 1 work and other do not? Simple one of these 2 is bugged which one depends on developers ofc. Since there is only warmane who does not have Elemental devastation proc from Frostbrand weapon I would and only me personaly say that its bug of Frostbrand not procing Elemental devastation. And mby warmane has it as the only server right (atleast what I know of).

So Vsetoq if you can provide any hard data from official sources for same patch as warmane BLACROCK is now, I would like to read more about it would be awesome! Thx beforehand :)

[vsetoq]

Can you please provide link? where is this written? Ofc with current patch as Blackrock have. (every patch is different)

about "Reign of the Dead" every usable procable item have this icd - but now you are comparing item and talent. Thats for a new disscusion.

Just lets look at it as it is what is difference between Enchant Weapon - Icebreaker and Frostbrand Weapon?
Well both are enchants, both doing direct dmg, both are spells and only 1 difference rly one doing frost dmg and other doing fire dmg - so why 1 work and other do not? Simple one of these 2 is bugged which one depends on developers ofc. Since there is only warmane who does not have Elemental devastation proc from Frostbrand weapon I would and only me personaly say that its bug of Frostbrand not procing Elemental devastation. And mby warmane has it as the only server right (atleast what I know of).

So Vsetoq if you can provide any hard data from official sources for same patch as warmane BLACROCK is now, I would like to read more about it would be awesome! Thx beforehand :)

I'm not comparing item with talent although it doesn't really matter. I'm comparing tooltip with tooltip. In the end what exactly link you are looking for? What part of my comment you didn't get exactly? I gonna help you to figure out why Flametongue or Frostband is not supposed to proc ED



Source: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...astation%22%29

As you see if Flametongue was supposed to proc ED it should refresh after each crit of Flametongue. Also notice that there is batching system or whatever you can call it so the proc/refresh of ED doesn't happen in the same frame crit happens what you can see right from the first proc of ED by Flame Shock initial crit.

In additional...

about "Reign of the Dead" every usable procable item have this icd

Dunno what exactly you mean with this but be sure that TaJ doesn't have icd as an example.

[XChaos]

So, I scraped a thousand random ICC25 logs from random guilds from random servers in random regions in 2010 (up to Cata Prepatch) - surprise, surprise, no one slaps on a [Frostbrand] to DPS bosses. If you want to be more thorough than that, be my guest but chances are you probably won't find what you're looking for either.

Your comparing Shaman Weapon Enchants to Enchant Scrolls is a non sequitur. You're simply making observations and claiming things purely based on your assumptions as to how they should behave or what they're modelled after. Personally, I think it's safer to assume [Frostbrand] behaves similarly to [Flametongue] (which does not proc [Elemental Devastation]) than to assume otherwise.

One thing we can both agree on is that forum statements from that era (or any other one, for that matter) also aren't necessarily infallible.
To prove how it's supposed to work, either find a retail log that confirms it or a PvP video where you can clearly tell [Frostbrand] is equipped, being applied, critting and proccing [Elemental Devastation].

[Persivaln]

It reminds me of one pvp ret wannbe that was arguing how Hand of Reckoning SHOULD! trigger warriors Spell Reflect))
Pure assuptions, 0 game mechanics

[klidas]

Honestly it's not just a logical assumption since enchant does exactly the same and even having the same criteria to proc that there is no need to make any assumptions :D. My experience as I said many times: Warmane is only server where crit from frost-band do not proc elemental devastation talent but since many people struggle with enhancements me included I also think that if that it's better to let them as they are :D why give them chance for proc, while they have 15% (into player) chance to proc it with shock or instant spell right? 15% (in biss gear) that's plenty :D. (In case frostbrand even proc).
[Please do not take this "irony" to your hearth its ment as fun for those who will appreciate it].

Anyway if you think about it, I do not have any hard data to prove because if I show you how it works on servers I know of - logically you will say well they have it bugged and warmane is the only server who has it right. right?

and same goes for videos or screenshots and since on warmane its not working and only in this case it would be only viable way how to prove, which leads to fact that this post would not be created in first place right? :D

so na matter how you look at it, if the setup is given like this only the official server is viable and only in case it has the same PATCH that would prove something right? :D that says it all. :)

So let this matter rest and let everybody think what they want :D in the end I believe we all have a right to be right or wrong.

[XChaos]

Honestly it's not just a logical assumption since enchant does exactly the same and even having the same criteria to proc that there is no need to make any assumptions :D.

It is an assumption on your part, though. Are you not able to reconcile the fact that two things on the face it of may appear to have to behave in a certain similar way, while in actuality their internal mechanics differ vastly? You're not (presumably) a WoW dev. Neither am I. So for you to say "One is an enchant, the other is an 'enchant', badabing-badaboom, one should work like the other" is simply not sufficient to convince anyone.

My experience as I said many times: Warmane is only server where crit from frost-band do not proc elemental devastation talent but since many people struggle with enhancements me included I also think that if that it's better to let them as they are :D why give them chance for proc, while they have 15% (into player) chance to proc it with shock or instant spell right? 15% (in biss gear) that's plenty :D. (In case frostbrand even proc).
[Please do not take this "irony" to your hearth its ment as fun for those who will appreciate it].

Ah, yes - it's a global conspiracy, one of Molten's numerous ones, to keep those pesky OP OP Enhancement Shamans down. Come to think of it, what difference would it ultimately make anyway? I'm not that familiar with Enha PvP but given the existence of things such as http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=49236, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=2484, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16287 and http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=58875, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=58796 doesn't exactly sound like something you'd ever use anyway. Do you actually re-buff Frostbrand mid-combat? Do you keep a spare Offhand (I've only ever heard of Shields being used) with Frostbrand on it? Even if it did work the way you wanted it to, that would be a 9% melee crit buff with a close to 1-4% uptime (assuming you don't keep Frostbrand on for the entire duration of the arena, which again, I have no idea why you would want to do anyway).

Anyway if you think about it, I do not have any hard data to prove because if I show you how it works on servers I know of - logically you will say well they have it bugged and warmane is the only server who has it right. right?

and same goes for videos or screenshots and since on warmane its not working and only in this case it would be only viable way how to prove, which leads to fact that this post would not be created in first place right? :D

so na matter how you look at it, if the setup is given like this only the official server is viable and only in case it has the same PATCH that would prove something right? :D that says it all. :)

Correct. Only patch notes, hotfix notes, known undocumented patches or hotfixes, blue posts, retail logs and retail videos count for anything. They don't have to be from 3.3.5a specifically, so long as you can reliably prove no changes have occurred in that timeframe.