WotLK [Sindragosa's Cruel Claw] or [Rimetooth Pendant]?

[Shred92]

Let's start the flame.

https://tcubuntu.northeurope.cloudap...re=50633;51822

[Bastardbottle]

According to this guide' this section

A) Relative Stat Weightage of various stats

I will be using a spreadsheet tool called Rawr to evaluate the result of stat upgrades and observe multiple scenarios:-

I) In the first scenario, let us imagine an insta-80ed hunter with the starting bow. The hunter has talented himself with the 7/57/7 spec with aimed crit spec and glyphs. Let us evaluate the hunter's DPS gain per point of stat he gains.

Spoiler: Show

1) Intellect - 0.57 DPS per point of additional intellect, it is your most valuable stat.
2) Agility - 0.27 DPS per point of additional agility, it is your second most valuable stat.
3) Scope Damage - 0.25 DPS per point of additional scope damage.
4) Mp5 - 0.18 DPS per point of additional Mp5
5) RAP - 0.15 DPS per point of additional RaP
6) Haste Rating - 0.01 DPS per point of additional Haste rating
Stats like Critical Strike Rating and Armor Penetration do not even show up in the list as they would contribute 0 DPS at this point. This is a completely pointless illustration, but I just wanted to stress how no stat is dynamic and seemingly useless stats like Mp5 can actually be beneficial at some point. This is because the hunter has a small mana pool to cast shots that it makes Mp5 a valuable commodity, at realistic gear levels Mp5 will cease being of value and at any levels of gear the usage (proper) of Aspect of the Viper will make it a pointless stat.

II) Let us imagine a second, more likely scenario. A hunter possessing the following gearset :-

Spoiler: Show

1) Ahn'Kahar Blood Hunter's Headpiece
2) Rimetooth Pendant Normal
3) Ahn'Kahar Blood Hunter's Spaulders
4) Recovered Scarlet Onslaught Cape
5) Ahn'Kahar Blood Hunter's Tunic
6) Scourge Hunter's Vambraces Normal
7) Quel'Delar, Ferocity of the Scorned
8) Njorndar Bone Bow Normal
9) Whispering Fanged Skull Normal
10) Mirror of Truth
11) Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance
12) Frostbrood Sapphire Ring Normal
13) Rock-Steady Treads
14) Draconic Bonesplinter Legguards
15) Nerub'ar Stalker's Cord Normal
16) Ahn'Kahar Blood Hunter's Handguards

No gems or enchants, and the hunter needs to decide what to gem and enchant.
With this gear the hunter has the following stats :-
1) Agility - 1804
2) AP - 6793
3) Hit - 4.67% (153)
4) Crit - 49.04% (1159)
5) ArP - 47.66% (667)
6) Haste - 0

The above stats are a distributed average of trinket and talent procs.
Now, according to Rawr, on a 120-second fight, with no buffs but self-buffs and a Retribution paladin's Judgments (to keep intellect from being the priority stat due to having mana problems). The DPS gain for this hunter with this gearset per point of a stat gained as calculated by Rawr are as follows :-
1) Hit Rating - 1.28
2) Agility - 1.18
3) ArP - 1.13
4) Crit Rating - 0.99
5) Scope Damage - 0.77
6) Intellect - 0.55
7) RAP - 0.54
8) Haste rating - 0.19
As you can see in the new list, several stats such as Mp5 have totally disappeared from the stat priority, the addition of a Ret with mana regen has pushed intellect much lower in the stat priority, and that stats such as Hit, ArP and Crit have climbed up to the top of the ladder.

Now, the given arbitrary hunter wants to start gemming with his Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance. A choice can be made by comparing the relative DPS gain from the stats. Because these stats are so high up the ladder he can choose to gem either hit, crit, agility or ArP. The socket is yellow and the bonus is +4 agility.
* Gemming +20 Hit gem - Hit cap is 164, so you get a gain of 1.28 DPS until you reach the hit cap then a total gain of 0 for the remaining 9 hit. You get 4 extra agility from the socket bonus. So the total DPS gain in this case is 1.28 * 11 + 4 * 1.18 = 18.8 DPS
* Gemming +20 Agility gem - Simply, 1.18 * 20 = 23.6 DPS
* Gemming +20 ArP gem - Again, 1.13 * 20 = 22.6 DPS
* Gemming +20 Crit gem - 20 * 0.99 + 1.18 * 4 = 24.52 DPS
* Gemming +10 agility and +10 crit - 14 * 1.18 + 10 * 0.99 = 26.42 DPS
* Gemming +10 agility and +10 hit - 14 * 1.18 + 10 * 1.28 = 29.32 DPS

Most hunters would choose this gem by default, or at least I would hope so. Let's say the next item to gem is Rimetooth Pendant. Now yellow sockets with a +4 bonus is something that is neglected by most hunters who go with the mainstream agility/ArP gem. Let us evaluate the possible gem combinations we could do. We have already concluded that extra hit is wasted and since we are at 1 below the hit cap, we could gem either agility, ArP or crit, which are the top three damage stats.
* Gemming +20 Agility gem - As calculated before, a DPS gain of 23.6 DPS.
* Gemming +20 ArP gem - As calculated before, a DPS gain of 22.6 DPS
* Gemming +10 agility and +10 crit - Again, as calculated before a net gain of 26.42 DPS which is the highest gain possible and gemming agility and crit is the most optimum way to go for hunters.

III) Let us consider a third scenario of a near BIS hunter.

Spoiler: Show

Now, the DPS gain for the hunter at 1380 ArP per point of stat changes are:-
1) ArP - 2.37 DPS per point of ArP gain
2) Agility - 1.52 DPS per point of Agility gain
3) Critical Strike Rating - 1.43 DPS per point of Critical Strike Rating gain
4) Scope Damage - 1.02 DPS per point of Scope Damage gain
5) Intellect - 0.70 DPS per point of Intellect gain
6) RAP - 0.68 DPS per point of RAP gain
7) Haste rating - 0.31 DPS per point of Haste Rating gain
The stat weightage shows how ArP later becomes the most valuable stat over Agility and crit, which approaches really close to Agility. The reasons for this are discussed in later sections.

Section-conclusion:-
1) Different stats have different priority at different gear levels, however at almost any gear level, Agility, ArP, and Crit are the most important stats.
2) Intellect varies in its stat value depending on the availability of mana replinishment source in the raid. A raid composition with sufficient source of mana replenishment is important for a hunter to minimize Aspect of the Viper usage, and hence, maximize DPS, as hunters do not ideally gem for intellect.

Rimetooth wins by a little amount

Claw:
18agi (gemming 20 agi for claw, 10agi+10crit for rimetooth.) = 27,36 or 31,29984 (buffs, but Idk if its calculated like this.)
7ap = 4,76 or 5,236
8arp = 18,96
60haste = 18,6
Total of 69,68 or 74,09584

Rimetooth:
62crit = 88,66

[Fmtansei]

ive already addressed this, sindy neck will always win in a fight with no downtime, as haste gives you ALWAYS that extra auto during the fight, whereas crit has rng involved as to if that shot would roll a crit number or not, plus, scc has more stats overall = better in terms of paper.

with scc you gain 12 agi
23 stam
7 ap
8 arp

[Fmtansei]

scc also puts you better at your arp cap than rimetooth, as youd be under arp cap by 5, whereas scc youre over by 3, AKA, more use of stats

[Bastardbottle]

@fmtansei

3 over cap means 3 of the stat is being wasted/not used. And being under cap by 5 isnt that bad thing, even if you were at 1390 you wouldnt gem or replace nightmare tear with +10 arp +15stamina gem just to fully cap arp.

Btw if that extra haste hit occurs all the time (around per 100 shots I guess.), these extra crits will occur aswell in same amount of time unless the person' luck is really terrible. Crit isnt that rng based since you dont have to get that crit at first strike or anything.

PS: Though JC favors scc more if I remember correctly but still it wouldnt increase the value of scc much compared to rimetooth.

[Fmtansei]

@fmtansei

3 over cap means 3 of the stat is being wasted/not used. And being under cap by 5 isnt that bad thing, even if you were at 1390 you wouldnt gem or replace nightmare tear with +10 arp +15stamina gem just to fully cap arp.

Btw if that extra haste hit occurs all the time (around per 100 shots I guess.), these extra crits will occur aswell in same amount of time unless the person' luck is really terrible. Crit isnt that rng based since you dont have to get that crit at first strike or anything.

PS: Though JC favors scc more if I remember correctly but still it wouldnt increase the value of scc much compared to rimetooth.

doesnt matter if its wasted 3 arp, its overall more stats even if 8 arp is considered 5 arp, also the extra auto is always there, NO MATTER WHAT, the crit is RNG DEPENDANT, and scc still sims higher than rimetooth,

the general abse is nm rimetooth < nm scc < hc rimetooth < hc scc

[Bastardbottle]

doesnt matter if its wasted 3 arp, its overall more stats even if 8 arp is considered 5 arp, also the extra auto is always there, NO MATTER WHAT, the crit is RNG DEPENDANT, and scc still sims higher than rimetooth,

the general abse is nm rimetooth < nm scc < hc rimetooth < hc scc

More random stats doesnt mean that its better, you even included stamina which has 0 value. If they were all equal, we could gem with any attribute (like 30 stamina as you included stamina as more stats.) and be fine with them. And what you say about crit is being rng dependent when comparing to haste will ONLY work at theory, not in practise. %1 crit means that you ll get 1 crit at least per 100 shots (of any kind, not just autos.) in ideal case, worst case you ll get that crit in a row with next one at between 100th and 200th shots. Haste only affects autos for hunter effectively since 1.5sec gcd, it wont affect steady shot performance due we already get minor haste from talents/procs to cast it between 1.6-1.8 secs all the time which is enough to not delay main abilities. So by the time you do around 100 autos, you already do much more shots than 150 and prolly get that crit and maybe more already. But as I said, in theory you can say that even in 1000 shots you wont get any crit, yet in practise, you ll get around 9-11 crit ALWAYS. That ofcourse only based on %1 crit which is 45.91 rating or something.

[Frysharry]

you guys are all missing the most important and most significant difference between the two: scc gives more gearscore so its better

[Shred92]

I forgot to say this is for pvp which means crits are highly irregular. 1% crit could be 1% or 0.1% depending on the opponent. So crit is not really a stat to rely on.

[Bastardbottle]

I forgot to say this is for pvp which means crits are highly irregular. 1% crit could be 1% or 0.1% depending on the opponent. So crit is not really a stat to rely on.

%1 crit is %1 crit regardless of opponent, resilience isnt magically remove that specific %1, but I guess you were trying to say that you can crit per 1000 shots instead of per 100 but in that case you can say crit per 10 shots aswell but both of these crit per 10/1000 shots wont happen. Yet "haste on hunter" for pvp is %100 useless, no one gonna let you keep attack them freely, ever.

[Shred92]

I'm not arguing 52 crit vs 60 haste, I'm arguing 52 crit (which depending on the resilience of your opponents might as well be 0, and high resilience is very common) vs 12 agi 23 sta 7 AP 8 arpen

[Bastardbottle]

I'm not arguing 52 crit vs 60 haste, I'm arguing 52 crit (which depending on the resilience of your opponents might as well be 0) vs 12 agi 23 sta 7 AP 8 arpen

Man if you dont get that crit you can say that you have -%1 chance and by getting that crit rating you always increase it by %1 (-%1 to %0), its like capping hit for pve, you always have that %8 yellow miss chance, each %1 reduces the chance to miss by %1 even though you can still miss till you fully cap, crit rating never goes to waste, especially for pvp (at pve it can only lose a bit value after soft crit cap for melee hits for some classes.)

[manqkalek]

With high armor penetration(90%+),haste makes sense.Crit chance has higher value at lower levels(pre TOGC?).

[Shred92]

With high armor penetration(90%+),haste makes sense.Crit chance has higher value at lower levels(pre TOGC?).

I don't understand.

Why does haste make sense with 90%+ arpen?

Character is bis pve (except for neck...) so TOGC gear is not relevant to this discussion (or maybe I misunderstood)

[manqkalek]

Because your autos/steady will start hitting harder and also at that point u will have enough crit(over 60%) so the RNG will be on your side.Everytime when u crit u will get 1.35% modifier on crit.That value with lower crit chance is huge.Once u get enough passive crit,u start counting on your other stats.