Abandoned project.
If you find any useful information here, I'm glad to have sated your thirst for knowledge. If you don't - sorry for wasting your time!
Hello everyone! Since from time to time I'm in the mood to analyse different ways to deal with certain boss mechanics - just for the sake to sate my curiosity - I wanted to create yet another thread, where I'd like to discuss some peculiar cases, which aren't usually brought up in guides. I'd love to hear out different opinions on the matter.
Let's start with something spicy:
Clipping Dots
Regardless whom we ask, people tell us that refreshing dots is a huge misplay. Under normal circumstances it is:
When we clip dots, not only do we lose their full effect, but we also increase the time between two ticks. So, this is not only a dps loss, but also an energy one, because we pay more for a weaker ability. And not only this - refreshing the dot sooner than we should means that we might screw up our future energy management, which would end up sacrificing a Ferocious Bite for the sake of keeping the dots up. That said, the statement “clipping dots is a misplay” is imho not entirely true. Not every boss is an angry target dummy. All of them have some abilities, which influence our gameplay one way or another. And in the cases, when we can’t stay on our target, we have to adjust to the situation and decide how to use our remaining combo points and energy the best way possible. So, does that justify something crazy such as clipping dots? Let's find out! Let's look at some common cases, such as:
Fleeing
Not to be mistaken with evading. By "fleeing" I mean the cases where either we run away from the boss, e.g. in order to dodge an AoE, or vice versa. So, imagine how Sindy is in the air, and we have the opportunity to use only one GCD alongside our Feral Charge. Quite obviously, if Rip has faded or is about to fade, it should be a no-brainer move to refresh it with 5 CPs and let it last for 16 seconds (or 8 ticks). However, let's say that we aren't that fortunate to have such an optimal scenario. Let's say that Rip is still ticking. VVhat should we do when we have 1-5 CPs? Can we afford to sacrifice ONE tick from our current 5CP Rip, in order to refresh it with less CPs? To answer this, I'd like to present you with the average damage of my abilities on my druids from Icecrown.
10722 AP, 100% arp, 70% crit, 4pt10, and no other buffs (incl. idol) - i.e. something typical on IC/Lorde14029 AP (with raid buffs); 75% crit; 100% arp; t10, no idol, AP flask - i.e. something typical on IC/LordeSpoiler:Show So, we draw the following conclusions here:Spoiler:Show
*If we have 0-2 CPs -> Rake (if it has expired) > Shred
*If we have 3 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rake (if it has expired) ≈ Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > FB
*If we have 4 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > Rip (2 ticks are sacrificed) ≈ FB
*If we have 5 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > Rip (2 ticks are sacrificed) > FB
Those are some interesting revelations. However, this doesn't show the full picture. If we only look at the damage output of these abilities, then our boss has to die while fleeing from us, and its duration needs to be at least 16 seconds in order for you to consider Rip over FB (which is the case with Saviana in RS if she dies in the air, but not with Sindy). Here I have to consider two other factors:
- building up CPs and energy management after the boss becomes reachable again;
- trinket procs.
So, for the first case we actually have to answer the question whether it would be better to PRESERVE the Combo Points and refresh our Savage Roar when the boss is in our reach. Now, I must admit that it's kinda hard to answer this question with general calculations. I am not a person, who tracks his games or creates personal statistics. That said, I could use common sense and try to describe a common goal among all cats - generating CPs and using them for 5CP Ferocious Bites. In other words, we need to use only those abilities that would grant us more damage than the 5CP bite.
As for the second point, it kinda depends on the timers. Like, if you clip Rip, and that procs your DBVV and/or STS while you are dodging ice bombs, that's an obvious misplay and should be avoided at any cost. You'd be better off going for a short-term burst or possibly a Rake (if there isn't a risk for its 9-second duration to trigger a trinket proc). But, let's imagine how our DoTs won't do that. If you clip your snapshotted Rip while having 0 trinket procs on you, the net gain decreases even more. For example, STS hc gives us 1619 AP, while DBVV hc (strength) - 1666 AP. So, in summary we get 3285 AP combined, which would translate into 589 additional damage loss per sacrificed 5 CP Rip tick. If we consider raid buffs, then the values are - 1781 (STS hc), 2015 (DBVV hc str), 3796 (both trinkets combined), and 754 (damage loss per tick).
Taking both arguments into consideration, I propose the following concepts:
If our DoTs wouldn't trigger any trinket procs during the boss's downtime (>16 secs), and:
*if we have 0-3 CPs, we use Rake (if its duration has expired) > Shred.
*if we have 4 CPs, we use Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed; ≈ value of 5CP FB) > Rake (duration has expired) > Shred.
*if we have 5 CPs, we use Rip (0-2 ticks are sacrificed) > Ferocious Bite.
If there's a possibility for our DoTs to trigger any trinket procs during the boss's downtime, and:
*if we have 0-4 CPs, we use Rake (if its duration has expired, and the ICD of our trinkets is longer than 9 sec) > Shred.
*if we have 5 CPs, we use Ferocious Bite.
This looks much better, and here's how you can clip Rip if you decide to do it:
That's fine and all, but what if the duration of the downtime doesn't last 16+ seconds, but much less. VVhat do we do in that case?Spoiler:Show
Duration of the fleeing phase/5CP Rip
I. Going for the 4 CP Rip
On certain scenarios if we cast the inferior Rip, and we attack the boss after, say, 5 seconds, we will still have the weaker ticks instead of those from the 5 CP Rip. So, what's the approach then? Let's compare 4CP Rip and its superior version one more time: The ticks of the first ability deal 3002 dmg on average, while those from the second - 3720. This means that we lose 718 damage per tick if we go on the boss again, and the weaker Rip is ticking instead of the other one. Ok, so there could be a tendency here - in order to come out with a profit, the damage from the weaker ticks needs to compensate the damage loss from losing 718 on each tick. In order to achieve that, the duration of 5CP Rip's downtime needs to be long just enough to justify going for that play. VVhat would be the shortest duration for that to happen? VVell, I'm going to use the following equation:
X*3002>Y*718
X is the number of 4CP Rip ticks, which provide us with damage while we are away from the boss.
Y is th number of 5CP Rip ticks, which would have overlapped with the 4 CP ones.
Since the keyword here is overlapping, X+Y=11 ticks or in other words Y = 11-X. If we use that in our previous formula, we would get the following:
X*3002>(11-X)*718
X*3002>7898-718*X
X*3002+718*X>7898
3720*X>7898
X>2.12
So, in order to get a profit, the downtime needs to allow 3 ticks to do their damage, which means 6 seconds. However, this doesn't show the full picture - it just explains that a person who did SOMETHING before a short fleeing phase would gain some damage in comparison to a person, who did NOTHING but waited for the duration to end. But what if we do something this time around? How will that affect the equation above? To answer this we need to look at our tools - which are Rake (14150) or Shred (10602) in this case. Here are the formulas:
X*3002>Y*718+Shred
X*3002>Y*718+Rake
Shred
X*3002>(11-X)*718+10602
X*3002+X*718>18500
X*3720>18500
X>4.9
Rake (full duration)
X*3002>(11-X)*718+14150
X*3720>22048
X>5.9
So, in order to justify a no-clipping 4CP Rip, the duration of the downtime needs to be least 10 seconds (i.e. 5 ticks) for Shred and 12 seconds (i.e. 6 ticks) for a full Rake.. If we sacrifice a 5 CP Rip tick, then:
Shred
(X*3002) -3720>(11-X)*718+14150
X*3720>22220
X>5.9
Rake (full duration)
(X*3002) -3720>(11-X)*718+10602
X*3720>25768
X>6.9
In other words, clipping one 5 CP Rip tick would require two extra seconds, in order to make it worth. I'm not going to calculate sacrificing 2 5CP Rip ticks, because as I've established above that would deal less damage than a 5CP FB. Here's a simpler way to describe what I said thus far:
Conditions to justify a 4CP Rip
No clip
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, our 5CP Rip's downtime needs to be at least 10 seconds. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired on our target, our 5CP Rip's downtime needs to be at least 12 seconds. Otherwise, cast Rake!
One 5CP-Rip tick is clipped
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, our 5CP Rip's downtime needs to be at least 12 seconds. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired on our target, our 5CP Rip's downtime needs to be at least 14 seconds. Otherwise, cast Rake!
Two 5CP-Rip ticks are clipped
-> Boss needs to die after 16 seconds, and you have low amount of arp. Otherwise, don't think about it!
II. Casting a 5CP Rip over an existing one
VVhat about the case with 5CPs? If we ignore trinket buffs for a bit, we don't have to worry about the difference between the different ticks, because they are all the same. So, the things, which are important here, are the downtime of Rip and Savage Roar (whether it has expired or is still present after the fleeing phase).
1. Rip is about to expire during before the fleeing phase. SR is up after the AoE, and preferrably it has a long duration
Affording a FB
Let's see whether we can sacrifice some Rip ticks in favour for FB. Usually, in order to justify such play, we need to divide the damage from the first ability by the normal tick and see how many ticks we can actually afford to sacrifice, which would lead to this:
20073:3720=5.4
VVe can hypothetically sarifice up to 5 Rip ticks. However, if we bite the target, and Rip expires, we would need at least 3 GCDs (119/126 energy in summary for 2xShreds+1xRake or 3xShreds, no TF and no CCs) to obtain all 5 CPs, which would be kinda clutch. So, let's consider two other factors:
Casting either Rake or Rip and, as a result, casting 5 CP Rip sooner.
[quote]Shred
(20148-10602):3720=2.5 (i.e. up to two ticks can be sacrificed, i.e. downtime needs to be no more than 4 seconds)
Rake (full duration)
(20148-14150):3720=1.6 (i.e. one tick can be sacrificed, i.e. downtime needs to be no more than 2 seconds)
Even though the pure damage of Rake and Shred alongside 2/3 Rip ticks would outvalue a 5CP FB on average, there's the argument of losing the damage from the missed CP. As I've explained in my other guide:
20073:5=4014.6
1CP = 4014.6; 2CPs=8029.2
This is the hidden penalty of casting a CP-generating ability at 5 CPs. VVe lose 7025 dmg on average {(4014*.25)+(8029*0.75)}.Disclaimer - this is only true, if the aforementioned CPs are used for a FB in the long term.
Ok, this changes the formulas a bit:
Shred
(X*3720) + 10602 > 20073+7025
X*3720>16496
X>4.4
Rake (full duration)
(X*3720) + 14150 > 20073+7025
X*3720>12948
X>3.4
This leads to the following conclusion:
Casting Shred and Rake vs FB at 5 CPs
- Rip would expire during the fleeing phase
- you consider the sacrificed CPs as a serious issue
- SR won't expire after the fleeing phase ends
-> If Rake is still ticking, the downtime of Rip needs to be 10 seconds or less to justify a FB. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired, the downtime of Rip needs to be 8 seconds or less to justify a FB. Otherwise, cast refresh it!
Don't forget that you need to use at least 3 GCDs to generate the needed CPs and to gather enough energy for these abilities+Rip. In other words, 3 seconds before "the above estimated downtime" hits the "deadline" you need to be on the boss. If that's not possible, then cast either Shred or Rake.
How to justify clipping 5CP Rip instead of going for FB?
Honestly, I can't think of a good formula defending the clip if the fleeing phase has a short duration. I can use the obvious:
1 clip
(X-1)*3720 > 20073
X*3720>23793
X>6.39
2 clips
(X-2)*3720 > 20073
X*3720>27513
X>7.39
but imho it's kinda misleading. Like, if I use the formula for a 0-clipped 5CP Rake:
X*3720 > 20073
X>5.39
My Rip would need to have a downtime greater than 12 seconds, in order to justify refreshing it, otherwise I should stick to biting the boss, which is ridiculous to say it. So, I don't know how to evaluate a clipped Rip tick if the duration is short, so I'll stick to the aforementioned formula for now.
Conditions to justify a 5CP clip
- SR is not a factor
-> If Rip has 2 seconds when a fleeing phase is about to begin, that phase needs to last 14 seconds. Otherwise, cast FB!
-> IF Rip has 4 seconds when a fleeing phase is about to begin, that phase needs to last 16 seconds. Otherwise, cast FB!
2. SR is going to expire during or shortly after the fleeing phase
Affording FB
VVhat's the case with both SR and Rip expiring? In order to find the tendency, we need to consider the damage loss from casting a CP-generating ability w/o SR:
Since the loss of a Rake tick is more severe than not buffing it with SR, we should use Rake when the boss becomes reachable again. For that reason, I'll consider only the 3511 damage decrease. The damage loss from the AAs is inevitable. So, we are left with these equations:Sacrificed DMG from having no SR
10602:1.33=7971 (2631 loss)
14150:1.33=10639 (3511 loss vs 4306 missed tick damage)
4972 (2xAAs):1.33=3738 (1234 loss)
Casting Shred before the fleeing phase if Rake is still ticking
{X*3720}+3511+1234+10602>20073+7025
X*3720>11751
X>3.15
Casting Rake before the fleeing phase if it has expired
{X*3720}+3511+1234+14150>20073+7025
X*3720>8203
X>2.2
In other words, in order for FB to compensate the damage of the missed Rip ticks AND the unbuffed Rake, the downtime of Rip needs to be 6 seconds or less (in case of the Shred example) or 4 seconds (in case of Rake). However, since we need a minimum amount of 5 GCDs to refresh both SR and Rip, not to mention energy:
- 216/206(with t10) energy w/o TF,
- 156/146(with t10) energy with TF.
we would need a hell lot of support if both Rip and SR expire during the fleeing phase. For that reason, I recommend checking this formula and figuring out when you can afford to bite the opponent and when to preserve your energy. If there's a risk to lose too much damage with the FB play, then you should cast either Shred or Rake, refresh SR somewhen before the fleeing phase ends and also cast GotVV, in order to refresh Rip ASAP.
As for the conclusion:
Conditions to justify a FB when both Rip and SR are about to expire during the fleeing phase
- you consider the sacrificed CPs as a serious issue
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, Rip's downtime needs to be 6 seconds or less to justify FB. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired, Rip's downtime needs to be 4 seconds or less to justify FB. Otherwise, cast Rake!
Don't forget that FB consumes all of your CPs, and as a result you'd need to accumulate enough energy for at least 5 GCDs. These 5 GCDs last 5 seconds, so if Rip and SR expire during the fleeing phase, you won't have the opportunity to refresh them on time. This is possible only when they expire shortly after the fleeing phase, but you'd still need a lot of luck in the form of CCs to regenerate enough energy. If neither that is possible, consider going for Rake/Shred, buffing the raid during the boss's downtime and refreshing SR before you get back onto the boss.
Here are some sites, where I found information about the formulas of my abilities:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48574#see-also
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49800
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48577#see-also
https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=48572?forums#see-also
https://www.wowhead.com/forums/topic/142010
In summary
If the boss is going to die outside of our reach, and we have the opportunity for 1 GCD, here's what we could do:
*If we have 0-2 CPs -> Rake (if it has expired) > Shred
*If we have 3 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rake (if it has expired) ≈ Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > FB
*If we have 4 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > Rip (2 ticks are sacrificed) ≈ FB
*If we have 5 CPs -> Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed) > Rip (2 ticks are sacrificed) > FB
If our DoTs wouldn't trigger any trinket procs during the boss's downtime (>16 secs), and:
*if we have 0-3 CPs, we use Rake (if its duration has expired) > Shred.
*if we have 4 CPs, we use Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is sacrificed; ≈ value of 5CP FB) > Rake (duration has expired) > Shred.
*if we have 5 CPs, we use Rip (0-2 ticks are sacrificed) > Ferocious Bite.
If there's a possibility for our DoTs to trigger any trinket procs during the boss's downtime, and:
*if we have 0-4 CPs, we use Rake (if its duration has expired, and the ICD of our trinkets is longer than 9 sec) > Shred.
*if we have 5 CPs, we use Ferocious Bite.
If the downtime is shorter than 16 seconds
Conditions to justify a 4CP Rip
No clip
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, the downtime needs to be at least 10 seconds. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired on our target, the downtime needs to be at least 12 seconds. Otherwise, cast Rake!
One 5CP-Rip tick is clipped
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, the downtime needs to be at least 12 seconds. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired on our target, the downtime needs to be at least 14 seconds. Otherwise, cast Rake!
Two 5CP-Rip ticks are clipped
-> Boss needs to die after 16 seconds, and you have low amount of arp. Otherwise, don't think about it!Casting Shred and Rake vs FB at 5 CPs
- Rip would expire during the fleeing phase
- you consider the sacrificed CPs as a serious issue
- SR won't expire after the fleeing phase ends
-> If Rake is still ticking, the downtime of Rip needs to be 10 seconds or less to justify a FB. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired, the downtime of Rip needs to be 8 seconds or less to justify a FB. Otherwise, cast refresh it!
Don't forget that you need to use at least 3 GCDs to generate the needed CPs and to gather enough energy for these abilities+Rip. In other words, 3 seconds before "the above estimated downtime" hits the "deadline" you need to be on the boss. If that's not possible, then cast either Shred or Rake.Conditions to justify a 5CP clip
- SR is not a factor
-> If Rip has 2 seconds when a fleeing phase is about to begin, that phase needs to last 14 seconds. Otherwise, cast FB!
-> IF Rip has 4 seconds when a fleeing phase is about to begin, that phase needs to last 16 seconds. Otherwise, cast FB!Check the second screenshot to see how to clip Rip correctly!Conditions to justify a FB when both Rip and SR are about to expire during the fleeing phase
- you consider the sacrificed CPs as a serious issue
-> If Rake is still ticking on our target, Rip's downtime needs to be 6 seconds or less to justify FB. Otherwise, cast Shred!
-> If Rake has expired, Rip's downtime needs to be 4 seconds or less to justify FB. Otherwise, cast Rake!
Don't forget that FB consumes all of your CPs, and as a result you'd need to accumulate enough energy for at least 5 GCDs. These 5 GCDs last 5 seconds, so if Rip and SR expire during the fleeing phase, you won't have the opportunity to refresh them on time. This is possible only when they expire shortly after the fleeing phase, but you'd still need a lot of luck in the form of CCs to regenerate enough energy. If neither that is possible, consider going for Rake/Shred, buffing the raid during the boss's downtime and refreshing SR before you get back onto the boss.
Boss encounters that feature a fleeing mechanic
1) Boss dies outside of our reach
Spoiler:Show
2) Fleeing phase lasts more than 16 secs
Spoiler:Show
3) Fleeing phase is shorter than that
Spoiler:Show
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Forum Veteran
CP utilisation in the context of DoT clipping, boss fleeing, & target switching.
Edited: March 4, 2022 Reason: I added more stuff.
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Forum Veteran
Abandoned project.
If you find any useful information here, I'm glad to have sated your thirst for knowledge. If you don't - sorry for wasting your time!
RESERVED FOR TARGET SVVITCHING (VVIP)
Random thoughts regarding the previous post - Frostmourne =//= Icecrown/Lordearon
- Rake doesn't crit (except the initial attack);
- low arp;
- Rip idol (and 2pt7) increase the value of Rip,
so the tendency might be different
https://web.archive.org/web/20150111...cussion/page-6I strongly recommend people use a feral druid or rogue to sprint in at the start and intentionally hit a cloud to spawn a 2nd Guardian. At least with Rogues and Feral Druids we can burn our 3m cooldowns at the start and have them up again for the brain. This gets you through P1 a lot faster and cleaner than not doing it, because adds spawn faster as you go longer, and the p1-p2 transition can often leave you with 2 adds up if you take too long; an extra at the start beats the hell out of an extra at the end. I would never Rip on P1 Guardians, Druids require mobs to allow sustaining Mangle, Rake, Rip, and SR in order to do optimal DPS, so on single adds (ie. no swipe) that die within 20 seconds our options get limited to Mangle-SR-Rake-Shred-FB if you have 4-5cp and the mob is about to die.
If you look at the damage of my abilities on my FM character, you'd see that Rip can outvalue a 5CP FB. It depends on how long the target is going to last.
Update. I am not going to do any calculations for FM. I'll just try to cover target switching with ICC gear and that would be it! Like, seriously. Since arp is abysmally low, my FB and Shred get outshined by multiple Rip ticks - even if those were cast with few CPs. Same goes for Rake, which can't crit. It feels like a lost cause/waste of time... Just check these numbers:
9575 AP (with raid buffs); 50% crit; 10% arp; Rip idol; no t10; AP flask - i.e. something typical on FrostmourneVVhat kind of rational conclusions should I draw from this? ****in 'ell. It's a waste of time. If someone else wants to do it, be my guest!Spoiler:Show
EDIT: In case some of you were wondering why I use "VV" instead of "W" - my keyboard is broken, so I have to copy/paste the "w" letter every time I need to use it in a word.
You're vvelcome.Edited: March 4, 2022
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