Realms Banning for Ninja

[joshjoshajosh]

If people are actually going to be banned for being a "ninja", then I think we need to establish what the rules are so that players get a consistent experience with GMs. The experience is very hit and miss, some will ban people you report in a heartbeat, others just give you "we have taken it into consideration". I suggest the following as a PUG/RDF guide, if you want items outside of these then I recommend a guild/reserving them:

MS > LPMS (Low priority MS) > OS

MS:

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Armor type must match (cloth = cloth etc.)
Tank War/Pala - Str, Def, Dodge, Parry, Hit, Exp, Block, Bonus Armour
Tank DK - Str, Def, Dodge, Parry, Hit, Exp, Bonus Armour
Tank Dudu - Leather: Agi, AP, Hit, Crit, Exp, Arp; Jewelry/Capes: Str, Def, Dodge, Hit, Exp, Bonus Armour
FWar - Str, Arp, Crit, Hit, Exp
Ret Pala/DPS DK - Str, Haste, Crit, Hit, Exp
Hpal - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Mp5
Hunt/Enh Sham - Agi+Int, AP, Arp, Crit, Hit, haste
(there are no Agi+Int capes/jewelry, so Agi for capes/jewelry only)
Ele Sham - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Hit
Rsham - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, MP5
Feral DPS Dudu/Rogue - Agi, AP, Crit, Hit, Exp, Haste, Arp
RDudu - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Spirit, MP5
Boomkin - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Spirit, Hit
Mage/SPri/Lock - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Hit, Spirit
D/H Pri - Int, SP, Crit, Haste, Spirit, MP5

LPMS:

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Still follow the above stat listings unless specified, e.g. Cloth with Spirit is not LPMS for HPal.
War - Agi gear, Agi+Int gear, Plate with Haste
Ret Pala/DK DPS - Agi gear, Agi+Int gear, plate with ARP
Tank Dudu - Agi jewelry/capes
Hpal - Mail gear, leather & cloth gear
RSham/Ele Sham - Leather & cloth gear
RDudu/Boomkin - Cloth gear

OS:

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A valid item following the above stat rules. MS changes must be declared before the first boss is started.
In RDF MS changes must be agreed by the whole party at the start.

Trinkets:

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MS:
Follow reputable BIS lists, most trinkets will be on someone's BIS list, HC/Non HC should be treated as the same.
LPMS:
Non-BIS Trinkets which match the MS/LPMS stat listings above.

Weapons:

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Ranged weapons count immensely more for hunters, and melee weapons immensely less.
Attack Power melee & thrown wepaons, priority for Non-Hunters, still following the stats above.
Attack Power bows/guns/crossbows, priority for hunters, again following the stats above, meaning Tank guns are MS for warriors tanks only.
Thrown weapons, priority rogues, the only class to posess an ability which utilises thrown weapons.
Agi Daggers, priority rogues, then hunters, then anyone else who still wants them.

Any more advanced rules are for guild runs only, BIS rules should only be for full HC runs, with the exception of trinkets.

[Thorbjorn]

Ignoring the fact that there's so many things wrong here (Ret pala having same priority on plate Arp gear as Frost DK for example), do you think 20-30k active players on Warmane will learn this list? Enforcing this will end up with so many false and incorrect reports (not that there's none of them already) that we'll wait for ticket replies for several weeks.
I don't see any benefits to following this.

[OhieMitzen]

This would be a nightmare to implement, and to upkeep consistently.

Do you expect PUG leaders to know/remember each of those roll priorities? They don't even know basics of most classes to begin with. Ever heard of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50653 being said to be bad for Combat/Hunters/Furies/Ferals/Retris because there's no ArP (or STR for rets)? Almost every raid somebody says it's bad to any of those, just so they can get the cloak themselves, on one of those aforementioned classes/specs.

If you want to be sure of "Is X allowed to roll 1,2,3 for MS?" ask the RL/ML before the raid starts.

[joshjoshajosh]

It's a guide for people who don't want to have to remember it, if you want to make the default rules more basic for PUGs then you can, it just needs to be consistent with what GMs think is ninjaing when they ban people.

Yes SVSC is not BIS for those classes, and 2 of the ones you listed wouldn't be able to roll on those items anyway (fwar & rpal). But we are not talking BIS, we are talking what people can roll on in a PUG.

[Persivaln]

Lol. Retry can freely roll on SVSC. Your "guide" isn't even barely touching classes and their specs, it's just quick assumption based on character creation window information about class...
Any class can roll on whatever item they'll benefit with small exceptions like mail-agi items (rolled for plate guys only if no hunt/enha go for them). Even outside of BiS, it is totaly legit for any arp class to roll for Arp+Agi ring or for all casters hunt down cloth caster items. There is no "godawful" % bonus to stats from wearing dedicated armor type like it was made in Cata.

[OhieMitzen]

Yes SVSC is not BIS for those classes, and 2 of the ones you listed wouldn't be able to roll on those items anyway (fwar & rpal). But we are not talking BIS, we are talking what people can roll on in a PUG.

So, in PUG raids you couldn't roll for actually better items, because the items aren't for their "MS/BiS" ? So we further have big GS players making less DPS than usual. Thus higher GS requirements will be made and PUG's are required to have full BiS to be able to raid ICC25 8/12 HC (6/12 HC tbh, who are we kidding).

[Guide] Retribution PvE 3.3.5a

Heroic-Mode Items Priority List (Includes agility items and leather)
(Be sure to use one 20 Expertise gem in this set.)

Head: Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet
Neck: Penumbra Pendant
Shoulders: Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderplates
Back: Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak
Chest: Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate
Wrist: Polar Bear Claw Bracers
Wrist(Alliance): Umbrage Armbands
Hands: Fleshrending Gauntlets
Waist: Astrylian's Sutured Cinch
Legs: Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates
Feet: Apocalypse's Advance
Finger1: Signet of Twilight
Finger2: Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance
Trinket1: Sharpened Twilight Scale
Trinket2: Tiny Abomination in a Jar
Main Hand: Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General or Shadowmourne
Ranged: Libram of Three Truths
DPS: 12,537 (13,708 with Shadowmourne)

[joshjoshajosh]

I feel like if you'd read the post you'd see you're agreeing with me

[joshjoshajosh]

Yes. Otherwise everyone will roll rpal/fwar just so they can roll on every single dps item. Again this is for non-BIS pugs, to ensure that everyone gets a fair amount of loot to roll on, so that paladins don't get to roll on every item because someone put it in one of their 6 viable BIS lists somewhere.

"Oh no that agility cape is better for me because everyone runs gunship heroic, so just by virtue of it being 277 it's automatically better for me...oh and everyone else", no, paladin's roll strength capes in PUGs, winding sheet is BIS for most builds anyway so why should paladins get to roll on both, because I guarantee if a winding sheet drops, that pally will be rolling and crying that the warrior shouldn't be able to roll on it because it has no arp. This guide removes all that drama from PUGs, save that for guild runs.

And again, this is just an example, I want a mod to explain what their criteria is for ninja loot bans and put their own (probably similar) guide together.

[SilverFlash]

no, paladin's roll strength capes in PUGs

Uh,no,unless you don't understand why paladins(and most melees) roll on the GSB back instead of Winding Sheet(which is the same ilvl but has str).

"Oh no that agility cape is better for me be everyone runs gunship heroic, so just by virtue of it being 277 it's automatically better for me...oh and everyone else"

So you really don't understand huh. Lower AC offpieces and agi items have more useful stats in total. That's why many classes roll for them.

winding sheet is BIS for most builds

One out of the whole two? Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak is a very good item even in lower gear,and the fact that it will become bis for the most consistent build makes it worth going for on all gear levels as a paladin(and ofc the fact that GSB should be a joke even for pugs). As for other classes,it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier to get hold of than Sylvanas's Cunning,which also makes it kinda bis if one can't get to 50/50 ToGC runs.

I guarantee if a winding sheet drops, that pally will be rolling and crying that the warrior shouldn't be able to roll on it because it has no arp.

I guarantee that every pally(or warrior for that matter) that knows his/her **** won't give a damn about Winding Sheet,unless the Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak didn't drop,if anything they'd be upset they would have to put up with Winding Sheet instead of the GSB back.

This guide removes all that drama from PUGs, save that for guild runs.

This "guide" just brings more misinformation and confusion to already terrible PUGs. You clearly have no idea how most guilds work if you think there's loot drama in them.

[SilverFlash]

and PUG's are required to have full BiS to be able to raid ICC25 8/12 HC

PUGs are already at that point/close to it. Basically 6.2/6.3+(sometimes even for 10m),which means heroic gear to do the easiest heroics for... something,idk,probably one or two missing items and maybe hc tokens at best. Hell,some leads who think like OP are actively barring upgrades,bc they have no idea of the actual value of gear on normal runs. The reserving is also getting out of hand,but that's another topic.

[Kiillswiitch]

This guide is so misinformed and advocates for ppl to report others for rolling on items that are BIS for them. Thanks for that! I'm not gonna roll on an item that is worse for me just because people don't know my BIS and take something lesser with strength. The crit % is a far greater upgrade then the AP bonus I'd get at this point in time with the gear I have (which is on track to BIS). Can't believe people are actually saying a ret should roll on something with str over agi just so *****s in pugs don't report them xD. Always screenshot your rolls. You should either change this or delete this because this is false information and you are failing to help at something you were trying to "help" with. I mean if you don't know everyones BIS that's fine no one expects you to, atleast put the research in before you go and make a post about it.

[Disktrasa]

The problem is many people are unsure about the ninja looting rules when it comes to an item actually being an uppgrade for someone even if it looks wierd in most players eyes, for example, yesterday this scenario happened in a pug raid I was with.
Retri Paladin with a bad ulduar belt rolls on Festergut 25 HC Mail belt, it has almost the same stats as the "Bis" leather belt from PP 25 Hc, and it's still a huge uppgrade for that Paladin, but hunter lost his mind over this since it's his bis item and he needed it too.
So will the leader get banned for passing the belt to the hunter who didnt win roll, will he get banned for giving the ret paladin a mail belt, or will the GM just not do anything about these sort of situations?

As a player who also leads pugs every now and then I allways feel slight anxiety over these scenarios where it is an actual uppgrade for 1 person but it's actually better or "bis" for the other guy.
I have to state every raid in loot rules that actual bis items will have prio on classes who uses that item as bis.
But almost every single pug I join dosen't mention this.

Does the rules apply as uppgrade is still an uppgrade and then it's ok to pass for whoever wins the roll in raids? I allways asumed this was the case but it would be nice with some clearification on this.

[OhieMitzen]

Yeah.

There's no general BiS > MS in terms of ninja looting rules. Which leaves the RL/ML having to mention these specific rules, as well as BoE/Primo/Pattern/Orb/Item reservations. Some think it's clear-cut case, but without specific mention of BiS > MS, BiS and MS rolls are on equal footing. The ninja looting is basic MS > OS / Upgrade > Not an upgrade, not who benefits from/needs it the most.

This goes to BoE reservations as well. Some people don't specify it, and assumes it's all part of PUG world, unwritten rule you could say, but it isn't. So whose wrong when a report is made? Person who didn't specify looting rules, or the one who assumed BoE's were MS>OS/free as they weren't mentioned.

[dolcokidol]

BIS>MS is pure bull****.
If you're running your char with one item from some magically optimized BIS list swapped out, you'll want to swap out some other item. Sure, in total you lose 30 dps over the perfect build, but my char is missing 2-3-5 items from bis and this is an upgrade.
Go ahead, tell me again how a ret with marrowgar chest has higher prio for SVSC over my arp capped rogue, cause he sure as hell isn't going for BiS, he's going for highest gearscore.
Pugs are a ****show and everyone will be rolling on anything they see as an upgrade. Get over it, get a guild if you want to play seriously and gear your characters.