I've been curious about this for the longest time.
Ninja's get items that normal players spend hundreds if not thousands of hours trying to acquire and for a 30day timeout and they KEEP THE ITEM!!?!?
This to me sounds more like a license to be a professional ninja, where you could essentially abuse it to profit using character trade.
Have several accounts > alternate ninja'ing BIS items across them > never have downtime > sell BIS chars on Trade..
I'm with the others in saying the punishment is not nearly severe enough. It may be "just a game" but for many, I'd wager (most) raiding or simply playing the game requires a huge investment of time, which is arguably the most precious real-life commodity. People in the MMO scene especially are just as passionate and get just as heated over game content as they would any facet of life. So I really don't get that comparison at all.
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Member
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Forum Veteran
I think your scale might be off. Rarely who ninjas for this kind of reason. There is no item in drops that's worth 30 days ban, when you can clear raids 4 times in that time and get a bunch of stuff that puts you 1 tier under BIS in that time. Not to meantion that you can farm 23 coins worth of gold in 2 days. Only people who ninja are people who don't understand the rules or really new/dumb people who think 30 days are remotely worth 1 item.
Why the hell would I ninja 1 item to sell toon, if I can get 10 items and almost 400 EoF's in that same time, it's like buying 1 copper for 10 gold.
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Loremaster
Because you can have items that just refuse to drop. Phylactery is amongst the rarest items,DBW is kinda rare as well. Hell i've seen simple **** like the gunship back refusing to drop for four months straight. After a certain gear level,if you miss just one-two pieces 4 weeks of vacation sounds better than having to suffer with pugs for months for some people.
And i hope you meant the 400 eofs as a joke,they're nigh useless once you can't buy gear pieces for them. You can literally get a primordial saronite's worth of gold faster than the 23 emblems for it,even if we assume no pots/flasks are used for pugging. Hell,if we're talking about 8/12 hc, you'll get jack **** outside of saronites because the only normal mode boss that drops BoE will be PP,and the belt goes for basically nothing on AH. At the very least 2-3 hours of raiding is much worse than even just soloing some old raids 30 mins a pop for gold. Being a ninja for selling geared toons is dumb,but pugging for anything else than gear is even dumber and a waste of time.
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Member
The comparative value of those BIS items translates into 15-20 PS and a ninja could potentially make that in one raid. Far more efficient than the time you spend farming your alleged haul of emblems. With several accounts, there would be no downtime. I for one don't live in this dream where an average player could make even close to 10 BIS items or anywhere near 400 EOF's in one month.
But that's not what I am talking about here. It's the monetary value in coins. The difference between a naked 80 and an 80 with just one BIS item averages around 100 coins. That's real money there. That's not to mention the moral implications of honest players getting robbed of the opportunity to acquire the item.
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Forum Veteran
If you sell a naked char with 400 EoFs vs char with DBW, I know which one I would pick for 100 coins. That's what I meant with EoFs.
You can farm some 30k gold a day on Icecream, so in 30 days you can potentially earn... 300 coins? vs 23 coins worth phalactery.
If it would actually be worth it situation would be the same as before these rules, when players had to actually use their brain before joining raids.
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Forum Veteran
I was thinking if the item(s) would be removed, when would that be done?
You may not want to delete them immediately, although this would be probably the easiest, or most convenient.
What if ban is removed after a successful appeal? Player would need to get their item back (if item is removed when ban is applied).
What if item is removed on the last day of ban, it would need to be made automated for convenience.
Having to remove items manually, if not automated, on last day could be bothersome work, another possibility would be after failed appeal(s).
Though with ban appeals, you have to remember they are the lowest priority, so there's the chance of appeal being dealt with after ban is expired.
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Loremaster
I wonder about how many successful ban appeals are made for ninja cases. Probably very few,since you need quite the substantial amount of evidence for successful ninja reports. Yes,i get it that it's extra work to restore items in case there's a successful appeal,but the current system is way too lenient imo. 30 days can be nothing compared to both dealing with pugs and bad luck on drops.
Then there's also suspicious behavior from ninjas,like name changing/faction changing or both right after the incident(bc they're too dumb to realize they can be tracked by gms anyways). Don't tell me that there wasn't a better time for the ninja dk i stumbled upon two months ago to do a faction change and a rename than right when he should've rolled raid items. And he got away with a slap to the wrist at best,keeping the booty.
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Forum Veteran
Yeah, doubt the amount is high, but can't just go doing things because there's low chance they didn't.
I'm all for removing the ninja'd/scammed items from those who gets the ban. After all, the item(s) don't belong to them.
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Member
Let us pretend for a second we live in this fantasy of yours where everyone earns 30k per day. This does not change or discredit the potential for abuse this system currently has. In the short time between reading my post and posting your own, you've conveniently chosen to ignore the potential of using multiple accounts, which throws your math on its head.
Not only is 30k per day a whimsical fallacy that 99.9% of the playerbase will never come close to (which would be immediately evident by a global market crash if it were true) But your figures also do not factor in multiple accounts as I've already mentioned.
A more "realistic" equation would be:
You farming 14 hours a day non-stop for 30 days VS a ninja spending a few hours ninja-looting raids.
Extrapolated figures:
Naked 80 = 35c
80 with one BIS = 130c
X 15 accounts = 1500c per month
You farming for 420 hours VS 30 hours of ninja-looting
That's obviously an extreme example, but it's still possible because this system enables it. Let us also not forget that this gain or any gain from this is literal Theft by way of stealing drops from other players.
If they really wanted to deter this type of behavior they would simply and easily just increase the timeout. They have harsh punishments for Botting because bots effectively kill realms. My only guess as to why they don't do this is that they might rely on this to stimulate the character trader market- That or they consider this to be the best happy medium due to inconsistencies in persecuting offenders. Either way I think it stinks that they actually keep the item.
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Member
I get the comparison but I guess it's a bit different - If someone steals my car, then yes I want it back, as I have receipts of ownership and spent money to get it in the first place. But if me and a group of friends went metal detecting and I found something worth $10,000 and my friend took it before I could - Then there wouldn't be any grounds at all irl for that person to be punished - I'd say finding loot is more like metal detecting with friends than it is owning a car. You have no receipts, you've invested nothing at all into the item which got ninja'd, so while you deserve it, it isn't yours to begin/end with.
(The only thing you could say you've invested in is your time to obtain the item, but the ninja also did this - So there's nothing unique to say you own it)
But the difference is Warmane does actually punish for ninja looting so it wouldn't be that hard for them to just refund the item to the person it got ninja'd from.
Although I feel if this became a thing then it would definitely make punishing ninja's much more longer - There's multiple different scenarios in which ninja looting can happen - Some may be easy to fix by just giving the item to the person it was ninja'd from - But what if 2 or 3 people needed that item, does the GM now have to look into logs of rolls and who rolled what - Do they have to figure it out themselves who deserves the item the most?
I feel the way it's handled right now is the most sensible way to handle it - Perhaps just delete the item so nobody gets it.
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Member
My friend njina the normal mark and something else and he said that he changed his name via points so people when report, they cannot find his real name. I don't know if this thing is even working but he never got banned regardless (either people didn't report or it worked).
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Forum Veteran
tbh 30k is doable in 1 full day, like 10-12 hrs farming, anyway we are talking about someone who schemes to make coins, so numbers approxing whats possible are ok.
To make a successful raid, the player has to posses some degree of knowledge, making raids is pretty annoying. Also DBW has some 15% chance or whatever, so 3 hrs per raid(very very optimistic), it might take some 30 raids to get it. It is not legit way in any shape or form.
And 1 bis item brings from 30 to 130, sounds pretty far fetched to me.
Also this theft is a part of the game, it was literally designed that way, for a reason. Here a player serves his 30 days and his hands are clean, his item is earned and belongs to him fully.
And the reason is the same old reason, people need drama and things happen to them(good and bad), or Warmane would be dead carcass or on it's way there. You can argue how it's bad, toxic, thieves and all that stuff, but they are required for community to function, people already are finding other ways to express this(way worse that some stolen items).
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Member
I thought that deleting the ninja object from the ninja was more than obvious, and now it turns out not... maybe when most of the server become ninjas... then the staff will take it a little more seriously, 30 Expulsion days in exchange for having what you are looking for are only vacations after a good reward.
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Member
I reported somebody on purpose ninja'ing an item thats heavy farmed "banner of victory", I included screenshot of the rolls and his stating in chat that he didnt care, and i could just report him.
I got a response back from the people running the server, stating that they dealt with the issue.
I checked armory and had him on my "friendslist". He never got a ban, nor was the item removed.
That tells me that the punishment on warmane is a joke, and as stated above, if you keep the item/s and just get a temp ban. Depending on the item, it might be worth it. And why we see so many dont care about getting reported.
Oddly enough same thing happened today, tank and healer (friends, same guild etc) needed on banner in toc 5n and didnt care. I have reported them of cause, but i suspect that the result will be like the previous.
If thats the case, i aint sure this is the server for me. Its already a semi toxic experience outside of guilds..
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Member
From what I recall ninjaing in a dungeon is just a 5 day ban. Nobody is going to care about 5 days
