Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated. :)
I will add the post back, since you found it worth reading. Fortunately, I've saved it in word yday so I won't have to write everything from scratch.
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very helpful thread! do we actually use another cp generator when we're at 4? potentially wasting 1 cp. but we are getting the most out of the energy cost of rip and have more time for bites so I guess it's worth? some guides even say to only use bites on 5 cp.
Edited: December 26, 2022
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Hey, thanks for the kind words! I have to go to work soon, so my reply will be rather short.
- Going from 4 CPs to 5 CPs is a must when it comes to refreshing Rip.
- Going from 4 CPs to 5 CPs is a misplay when it comes to refreshing SR UNLESS you're currently in Berserk. (Why? CPs are wasted in Berserk anyway, and it's better to utilise as many as possible.)
- Going from 4 CPs to 5 CPs is a misplay when you want to bite the boss because a 4-CP FB can potentially prevent a missed Rip tick or two or just put you in a more optimal situation.
Timestamp: 1:42. Had I used 4 CPs on FB, I would have had more on SR after refreshing Rip.
Timestamp: 2:41. I know that the raid content here probably doesn't concern you, but look how a 4-CP FB put me in a favourable position here. Had I gone with another Shred, that "lucky" CC proc would have forced me to go for another filler, and thus I would have been behind on CP-generation. Had I used Rake instead of Shred at 2:45, this would have been the best scenario. {Ok, I'm slightly wrong here. Since I had 36 energy when I went for the bite, I couldn't have used it on a Shred. However, had I waited a bit, RNG would have surprised me with that CC. I would have used it on Shred, and my energy would have reached 50. This is still a good energy threshold for FB, but the damage gain is rly small. This would have really put me behind my next cycle. As you can see, the 4-CP FB can indeed prevent bad situations from happening.}
Timestamp: 3:15. Going for a 5-CP SR would have been better. I would have gained more value from my current buff, and I would have made the next longer. I still had plenty of unused CPs afterwards, so in both situations our building blocks would have been wasted. This is what I meant when I said that 4CPs -> 5CPs and SR is only good in Berserk.
For a better explanation, please read "What's the value of a CP?" from my guide, this post, and this.Edited: December 26, 2022 Reason: added a better clarification
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I just wrote this in my other thread:
Energy threshold for 4-CP FB:Spoiler:Show
- 50 (outside of Berserk)
- 24 in Berserk
- if you have a CC -> Shred or another ability from the priority list
I've based my calculations on the possibility to miss out a single Rip tick and not two, and I'd like to explain why. First of all, going from 4CPs to 5 would require 42 energy if we use Shred as a filler. Since we regenerate 10 energy per second, the "4CPs -> Shred -> 5CP-FB" cat would be behind the 4CP-FB player by 4 seconds in terms of CP generation. Since Rip ticks every 2 seconds, that player would potentially miss out on two ticks in the long term. HOWEVER, that's just a hypothetical scenario. There's also a possibility that the 5-CP misses out on a single tick or on 0 in case of lucky CCs from RNG, which is why I only considered the average case (i.e. the loss of a single tick).Edited: December 26, 2022
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Bump.
I've updated the guide once again. The major changes are:
- Ulduar BiS list
- considering 3 variations of the GotVV-shift based on their difficulty (this was added in "Demonstration") and their usefulness depending on your current weapon speed (2.4 staff vs 3.6 Oathbinder)
- ICC BiS list for bearweaving
- fixed the gemming options for the traditional, AA-centered ICC cat in the OP
10/01/2023 Update: Earlier today, I realised that I could improve the gemming options for some builds. I played around undercapping expertise in my Haste builds and managed to come up with this:
Spoiler:Show
Since this increased the estimated dps of the build, I had to compare it with the Strength equivalent:
Spoiler:Show
and redo the math. The Haste build feat. BM was inferior to the Strength list after 2 shifts per minute, but the one with Berserking remained superior even at 3. I observed 3- and 4-minute fights with a 0.3 and 0.35 delays to the druid buff, and my conclusions changed. I'd advise using my "Agility & Haste" builds only if you perform the GotVV-shift minimum 3.5-4 times on average per minute. I understand that it's a bit inconsistent on my part to change this, but in truth Haste does indeed have anti-synergies with the "/stopattack" and the "swing timer reset" variations and is further affected by human error. You just need to be somewhat aggressive to make those anti-synergies count. Would love to see the feral simcraft featuring options such as observing the different ways to perform the GotVV-shift, average amount of shifts per minute, and duration of the delay before casting the druid buff and after AA-ing as a cat because this would give players a better idea what's good and what's not.Edited: January 11, 2023 Reason: typo
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Small bump.
A few days ago, I updated the priority list when CCs are involved. It stays almost the same, except the Rake part. I wasn't correct that it should be combined with CCs when AP procs are about to expire. I realised my mistake after redoing the math and considering the CP-value for the sacrficed 7 energy points. The Rip part is also slightly different - not ALL AP procs matter, rather only those from the BiS trinkets + Hysteria (when it comes to 2pt10).
Earlier today, I added this algorithm:
I spent a lot of time on it, and I realised that it doesn't contain info when adds need to be AoEd. Honestly, I'm not going to bother adding more info because 1) cba and 2) because it would become more complicated than what it is atm. I wanted to find a creative way to summarise my conclusions from my recent post in my other thread.
11/02/2023 Added v.5.69 of the algorithm (aka the final, final, FINAL version):
After posting the previous versions of the algorithm, more ideas flooded in my head about what to acknowledge for clipping Rip. Because of it, I continued working on my post and analysed more situations there. It took me a bit of time to realise which parts of my analysis were wrong and had to be changed. Sorry for the misleading information in the past!Spoiler:Show
That said, I didn't include everything in that diagram because I aimed to make it as simple as possible. If you want to learn what else I've concluded, you're welcome to read the aforementioned post. kthxEdited: March 8, 2023
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Guide update
Due to technical issues, I couldn't publish this post yesterday. Thank you, Palutena and Edifice, for helping me out. Most of you probably noticed it already, but the guide was updated in the last few days. Here's a quick list of the most important changes:
Original post:
- Replaced the old algorithm in "Feral's priority list in boss fights (general overview)" with a simpler one.
- Removed the information concerning feral cat's movement speed from "Miscellaneous" and put it in "Positioning as a feral cat".
- Updated the part about Rake with CCs in "Feral cat's priority list 101".
- Added the section "Clipping DoTs".
- Added new values for "maximum sacrificable Rip ticks" in "Timing FB".
2nd post:
- Corrected the values in the table in "Attack speed modifiers".
In my other thread, I've updated some posts, most notably "GotVV-shift in retrospect" and "FB/Rip/Rake & CCs" (the information concerning Rake is new; it's at the very bottom of the post).
1) The reason for the new (simpler) version of the algorithm was because the previous one touched the topic of DoT clipping and, most notably, paying attention to the duration of the idle time. I deemed it inappropriate, considering the audience it was meant for. After all, the section "Feral cat's priority list 101" introduces the main rules for playing as a cat, one of which states that DoTs should not be clipped. Having a diagram that contradicts what is written just a few paragraphs above and telling newcomers to keep track of the duration of the idle time, was a bad idea. For that reason, I created a new section specifically for this topic.
2) Regarding the information about the "movement speed modifiers" - in the past, I considered it a bit too niche, hence why I initially placed it in "Miscellaneous". However, as situationally useful it might be, it was disrespectful to put it in the same place alongside casually fun interactions such as clipping through walls in Dalaran banks. "Positioning as a feral cat' seemed like a more fitting section for such information.
3) Regarding Rake with CCs - at first, I viewed the following situation:
Rake -> FB -> Shred
FB depletes all of our energy, meaning that if we don't cast Rake prior to biting the boss, then we would miss out on a whole tick. After puting more thought into it, I came to the conclusion that there's more to that. The correct order is:
- CC proc -> Rake -> finisher -> Shred (4pt10 with 4 and 5 CPs; with 3 it's also possible if you plan to get SR or FB, Rip would be a bit risky)
- CC proc -> Shred -> finisher -> Rake (no 4pt10 with 4 and 5 CPs, but Rake's downtime is 2 seconds or less)
- CC proc -> Shred -> Rake -> finisher (if you have 0-1 CPs; you can do it with 2 as well, but it depends on your crit and on the finisher you want to cast)
The explanation is simple - if we have 4pt10, and we use the CC on Shred and follow it up with a finisher => Rake would be delayed by a lot (by at least 2 seconds). If we go Shred -> Rake -> finisher while having 4 or 5 CPs, then we'd sacrifice CP-value. Prioritising Shred instead of Rake prior to a finisher is only good w/o the presence of 4pt10, and when we slightly delay the tick.
4) Last but not least - prioritising FB over Rip.
A) Sacrificing ticks
Some of you have already seen this table:
It was based on this formula:
After puting more thought into it, I deemed the approach to be wrong (at least partially). Let me explain why by giving you two hypothethical scenarios:[FB-(35/42*Shred)]/damage of a single Rip tick = X
X - number of ticks you can sacrifice in favour of FB
If someone has 5 CPs, and he doesn't want to invest them in FB and risk losing Rip ticks, then he would cast Shred. If he casts it only once, in order to prevent his energy from overflowing, then he would lose 1-2 CPs (1.76 on average with 76% crit). As you can see in the quote above, the energy is the same and thus the abilities as well, so the only "advantage" for the FB-user would be the extra CPs. With ICC gear and raid buffs, 1.76 CPs constitute around 5400 damage, whereas a Rip tick - 5100 on average. Prioritising FB over Rip would be worth it in that situation, but the person cannot afford to waste more than two Rip ticks, else the FB would be a misplay. If someone uses two CP-generators at 5 CPs, then more ticks can be sacrificed. So, in reality the number of wasted CPs determine how many Rip ticks you can afford to lose. Here's a list of Rip's damage (1 tick) and average amount of CP-value (5 FA) from one yellow ability depending on the content patch:(5 CPs) -> Shred -> Rip -> 3x Shreds -> FB {223 energy}
(5 CPs) -> FB -> 3x Shreds -> Rip -> Shred (1.76 CPs) {223 energy}
- Naxx: CP value = 2,394.96, Rip tick (5 CP) = 3,913.4;
- Ulduar: CP value = 2,811.55, Rip tick (5 CP) = 4,186.65;
- ToGC (rough estimation): CP value = 3,798.73, Rip tick (5 CP) = 4,362.54;
- ICC & RS: CP value = 5,496.12, Rip tick (5 CP) = 5,109.35.
So, if you want me to be more accurate with how many Rip ticks a person can afford to sacrifice, the answer is:
- Naxx: one Rip tick per 1.63 CP-generators at 5 CPs;
- Ulduar: one Rip tick per 1.49 CP-generators at 5 CPs;
- ToGC (rough estimation): one Rip tick per 1.15 CP-generators at 5 CPs;
- ICC & RS: one Rip tick per 0.93 CP-generators at 5 CPs
I know what you're thinking, and I agree. How the hell would we know how many CP-generators a person would waste at 5 CPs? Sometimes sudden CC procs occur that make someone wish they had used FB, and in other cases someone regrets going for it. Let me show you a video of mine:
Please watch the clip in the time frame between 2:20 - 2:27 and imagine that I used Rake a few seconds prior to refreshing Rip. This depicts exactly what I said in the previous paragraph. In order to avoid overcapping energy, one would use a single ability and deprive himself of CPs. Had I used FB at 2:20, I wouldn't have generated enough CPs on time, and I would have lost more than one Rip tick => FB would have been a misplay.
HOWEVER
Please imagine this exact same scenario from the PoV of a GotVV-shifter. 7 seconds would have been more than enough for me squeeze in 2 shifts (i.e. 2 Shreds). Considering how I would have also spent energy on Rake, I would have generated 5 CPs from those three abilities. Not being able to utilise them would have been a loss of "FB - (35/42*Shred)" damage => FB would have been an optimal play.
As you can see, depending on the playstyle the topic of "sacrificing Rip ticks in favour of FB" can be interpreted differently. For that reason, I moved the table you see above in the 2nd post (concerning the GotVV-shift) and included another one in the first post, which was based on the mean values between these three things:
CP-value on average from one ability vs one Rip tick
CP-value on average from two abilities vs one Rip tick
5 CPs vs one Rip tick
This led to this:
B) FB vs Rip in the last X seconds of a boss fight
In the past, I used the following formula:
FB/Rip tick = X
X*2 = how much time you need, in order for Rip to be better than FB (rounded up)
This, however, didn't acknowledge the energy difference. A more accurate formula could be:
[FB - (FB energy - Rip energy)*(Shred+CP-value from a single ability)/42]
However, the saved energy might not always be used on a Shred (with CPs) and could end up being part of FB's second effect. For that reason, I decided to show two durations (one with the energy difference in mind and another w/o it) and let people decide which they'd prefer. This regards using "Rip vs FB" on bosses before they die. If we switch to an add (Raging Spirits in LoD), then the saved energy would immediately be used, which is why I decided to acknowledge only that in the respective table:
Other thoughts:
- I'm officially out of ideas regarding the feral cat. If something new is discovered in Classic, which can be used on warmane, I might write my thoughts on it (though, FYI, I'm not going to actively seek out new discoveries).
- the 2nd and 3rd video in "Actual showcase" (the post concerning the GotVV-shift) are cringe to watch due to the abundance of misplays. Like, I don't mind showing videos with occassional misplays, but those were just painful to watch. If I start raiding once again, I will definitely remove those videos and replace them with better ones.
13/03/2023 I just got an idea regarding the scenario where both SR and Rip expire during the idle period, and we have to decide how we can utilise our CPs more efficiently. Please look at this video:
15:05. During the Frostmourne phase, players are idle for 40+ seconds, and the LK continues to take damage from DoTs. Since the idle period lasts more than SR's full duration, this finisher would inevitably expire by the time we resume dps-ing. In the past I've said that people should preserve their CPs once that phase is over. Although I don't take my words back - preserving CPs and casting Shred would put you in a more fabourable position than simply starting with 0 CPs - I admit that there could be an exception. Two, in fact. Please check the following videos:
0:11 (FB) -> 0:12-0:14 (TF, Shred, Rake)
0:09 (clipping Rip) -> 0:10-0:12 (Shred, TF, Shred, Shred)
If the player refreshes Rip 3-4 seconds in advance, he can squeeze in 2-3 CP-generators. This would allow him to get bleed damage during the idle time and have CPs for SR. As an added bonus, casting Shreds would trigger http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40901, resulting in additional ticks.Edited: March 18, 2023 Reason: added sth new
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Member
Let's address the obvious - knitting bears deals more damage than traditional, AA-centric cats. It follows the same principle as GotVV-shift - get out of the cat form and do something more powerful while waiting for the energy to regenerate I checked this out at petdiseasenet
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Pardon me, but did I say somewhere that the traditional, AA-centric playstyle dealt more damage than bearweaving? In my third post, I wrote this:
So, I already addressed the power of bearweaving in comparison to the old-school, monocat playstyle. If I have written the opposite somewhere, I would gladly correct it. If by chance the inclusion of a BiS build for the traditional, AA-centric playstyle in the OP gave you the wrong impression that I consider it the strongest, I simply wanted to offer different builds based on the preferred playstyles.In terms of general applicability
Bearweaving > traditional cat > GotVV-shift
In terms of raw power
GotVV-shift > bearweaving > traditional cat
In terms of difficulty
Bearweaving > GotVV-shift > traditional cat
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Before I say the important thing, I'd like to make a small announcement. I've decided to return to WoW for the time being, so I'm somewhat active again. I'm planning on posting new videos from ICC boss fights in order to replace the Pepega VoA ones. Please keep in mind that whatever I post here won't include highly competitive materal. I have joined a laid-back progression guild on Icecrown, so there won't be any 0% buff boss fights or anything like that. Like before, I will show how I play, explain what my goals are and comment on my mistakes. kthx
As I've explained in the guide, there are three variations of the GotVV-shift:
- casting GotW w/o interfering with the swing timer;
- using /stopattack;
- resetting the swing timer by swapping idols.
Until earlier today, one could find suboptimal macros for the latter technique on the first page. Yesterday, a player by the name of Spreang contacted me and provided me with their feedback on how to improve the macros and thus how to make the technique more accessible to the general playerbase. Whatever I say next, I owe to Spreang. Props to them for improving the initial macro and for coming up with an entirely new one on their own.
Their first contribution was sharing this with me:
This is how the macro would play out:#showtooltip Cat Form
/cast [form:0/1/2/4/5] Cat Form
/equip Idol of the Crying Moon
/equip Idol of Worship
/startattack [form:3]
Then, this person decided to improve it by removing the risk of swapping idols and thus triggering an extra GCD prior to the one from GotW. They initially proposed us using /slashin, but after seeing that the files for 3.3.5 were removed, they offered ElvUI as an alternative. This is their second macro:
Note*: In order for this to work, you need to use the in-game equipment manager and create two sets. The first should be called "m" and contain Crying Moon, whereas the second - Worship and be called "w".#showtooltip Cat Form
/cast [form:0/1/2/4/5] Cat Form
/in 0.08 /run local s=UnitAura("player", "Cat Form");if (s) then if(GetInventoryItemID("player", 18) == 50456) then UseEquipmentSet("w") else UseEquipmentSet("m") end end;
/startattack [form:3]
Compare spamming the macro with the /in command vs the first macro:
Edited: October 8, 2023 Reason: removed the coloured text
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Member
Black magic is still working now when cat.
Edited: September 19, 2023 Reason: better
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Forum Veteran
I saw your comment while I was at work, but I couldn't respond to it sooner. Anyway, I just tested BM, and I can confirm that it's kinda bugged:
Mangle is able to proc it, but Shred isn't. This is a bug because according to wowwiki those two abilities should be able to proc the effect. Thank you for letting me know - I'll submit a new bug report because this one is not entirely resolved.
@GUIDE
While I have people's attention, I'd like to inform you what I'm doing right now. Dunno how many of you have already noticed it, but Rip no longer triggers http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50456 - only Rake does, which is the intended interaction:
Although this change affects everyone, the "idol swapping" GotVV-shift variation takes the biggest hit. DPS-ing too long with Ravenous Beast/Worship might prevent the player from refreshing the 5/5 stacks on time, resulting in the loss of the 220 agility buff. This is why I want to continue working on my last theorycraft from the "brainstorming" thread and why I need more time to update the guide.
If there are some good news to this, I've posted my recent DBS fight in the second post with a bit of commentary regarding my plays. People can get a good idea what flowershifting with idol swapping is capable of achieving.Edited: September 19, 2023 Reason: minor edits
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Member
question in regards to feral BIS preraid gear and build
idk if it exists already or not but what gear will the do the trick to get into toc, icc10nm and so on with emblem/dung/boe gear ty!
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Forum Veteran
Hey. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid that I cannot give you an exact list, consisting of different alternatives based on their stat weights similar to the one on wowhead. Whenever I level a feral cat and want to make it raid-ready, I just try to get my paws on whatever upgrades I can w/o thinking too much about them, since they're going to be replaced anyway.
That said, I really want to help you, so here are my tips:
- download AtlasLoot;
- buy http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50452 (it's relatively cheap on the ah);
- if the average ilvl of your gear is 180, you can spam RDF HC and buy all T9 tier pieces;
- assuming you can also queue pos, fos, and hor hc (or you can create groups on your own), I always love getting http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50264 from Krick & Ick, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50198 from Devourer of Souls (I should mention that http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=45931 is a slightly better option from the point shop, but if you get NES, it's still pretty solid), http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50308 from the last "boss" fight in hor hc, and http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50296 from Marwyn;
- my second trinket is usually http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47214 from toc 10. If one day you obtain http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50342, you can use either Mjonir/NES alongside WFS;
- if you're interested in a more specific hierarchical order for the trinkets, here's a pic from Rawr:
- I mentioned Banner and NES because they are somewhat easy to obtain if the point shop is not an option for you. I would never buy http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50355 because the EoFs are more valueable if they're spent on T10 pieces;
- ICC rep runs are always an excellent source for gear. You can obtain http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50402, which will stick with you until you start doing ICC and RS hc.
Those are the basic stuff I can mention regarding dungeons. If you get into TOC 25 and VOA 10/25, every item with Agility that offers more stats is going to be an upgrade for you, so you can /roll on it (especially in VoA where t10 pieces drop). I cannot mention anything more specific than that because RNG would determine which items drop in your raids, though FYI other melee classes have priority on http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47115.
In all honesty, the best way to gear your toon is by joining a progression guild, and I can't stress it enough. Officers oftentimes create gearing/alt runs, and they accept people with less gear. If you can get into their icc 10-man raids, you'd quickly farm EoFs for your t10 pieces. If you can provide me with your armoury, I might give you more specific tips. Also, please let me know if you can afford to spend gold on more expensive BOEs like http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=49899, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50001, and http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=49895. I don't recommend buying http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50380 for http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50052 - http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47302 from ToC is better stat-wise.Edited: September 23, 2023 Reason: Added one more sentence at the end
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Member
tnx for quick response! got a another question, do i keep usin t9 set pieces or i ll swap em for pos/fos/hor stuff later on (stat wise). anyways got a guide on how to use rawr? pretty confused rn <3
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