Is this considered ninja?

[milsszzonz]

Hey. Since I am joining alot of pugs and some gruns that fills pugs I need some clarification on this.

Imagine you are a pug DPS that got filled into ICC25 guildrun with pugs. 20 guildmembers and 5 pugs.

We kill the lich king and an item drops.

1. First DPS from guild rolls 23

2. You roll 56

3. A few moments later a tank from guild that was MS DPS rolls 80 and gets the item.

Everything is fine so far but 10 mins after raid you check the armory of the DPS that rolled 23 and you see he is wearing the unenchanted and ungemmed item. Is that fine that the tank with MS DPS traded the item to his guildmate after raid or is this considered as ninja?

Im confused myself as I both see it as ninja (guy who rolled lowest got the item) but also as that the tank won the roll so he does whatever the wants with the item (even trading to guild after raid).

What does the rules says about this how is it really?

[angrylol]

There are no such explicit rules.
But I can tell you what I think.
It is because they are internally doing another roll/bid/council after guild member wins the item. You had your fair roll, there is no ninja.

And I think you should keep your nose out of others business, it does not concern you in any way.

edit,
Scenario where tank already had same or better weapon, then it would be ninja. That low roll guy would have gotten 2 chances to get the item and cheated you out of the item.

[milsszzonz]

Its not like "putting your nose into other peoples business lol" It's about knowing what is the general approach to this as I just want to have more knowledge about pug / raid situations that can appear in the future (just like this one).

edit,
Scenario where tank already had same or better weapon, then it would be ninja. That low roll guy would have gotten 2 chances to get the item and cheated you out of the item.

// I have no idea what DPS weapon he had as he was in tank spec and gear.

[angrylol]

You want to look out for people changing MS to purely get another chance to get items, which they will do. However your chances are disclosed upfront and everything is fair, since you agreed to it. Only scenario where it's ninja is when you can prove that player already had same or better item.

[milsszzonz]

Ok that makes sense. So basically as a pug in a guildrun you have to outroll everyone as if they want to cheat you of an item they can easy do that and cover all evidence of it easy (other gmembers unequpping item before raid, different MS etc etc.) I mean I understand that and that can be considered natural human behaviour (help the close people) and majoriy of people would do the same (including me probably :]). So just have to roll high in a grun as pug :P

[Drunkuser]

it's common in guild runs. They want to keep the loot inside the guild. If some guildie lose it to an outsider, they will roll in 5-10 to increase the chance of getting it by "fair" roll. Then pass it to the guildie who really need it.

Expect that in every guild run.

[kabi026]

you lost the roll.

the end kekw

[Bastardbottle]

If you got enough screenshots, then report. Idk if gm s will inspect the case throughly but if you can convince them enough to check if the said item is traded after winning, then you can get them banned both. Thats pure ninja move what they did according to what you ve told.

[angrylol]

But no rules were broken, how is it ninja?

[Persivaln]

If you got enough screenshots, then report. Idk if gm s will inspect the case throughly but if you can convince them enough to check if the said item is traded after winning, then you can get them banned both. Thats pure ninja move what they did according to what you ve told.

It is not. Yes, guild might benefit from it. But there is no possibility to validate that tank with MS DPS rolled for his guildmate. And to make it bannable through rules, it must be stated that no MS changes are allowed, because you can not distinct "helper" from one who just started collecting gear for OS.

[AzureOrc]

But no rules were broken, how is it ninja?

Let's imagine a scenario.
Your guild is using DKP system to distribute loot. Every time you roll a DPS item, every person in your guild that actually needs the item is rolling for the item. If a player from your guild wins the item, your guild starts inside roll (or whatever) via DKP system.
Now the interesting part.
Let's say your tanks and healers don't use DPS spec at all. Even if they have one they don't gear it, using it in PvP only and they will never play DPS in raids.
Now they decide to farm DKP so they won't spend any DKP to get an item. So they announce MS change to DPS not to actually get items for theirs DPS specs they will never play, but just to prevent pugs from getting those items. So 2 tanks and 5 healers change their MS to DPS even tho they will never play DPS in raids. Hence you have to outroll 7 additional players that will never use and was never going to use that item.

[Obnoxious]

Let's imagine a scenario.
Your guild is using DKP system to distribute loot. Every time you roll a DPS item, every person in your guild that actually needs the item is rolling for the item. If a player from your guild wins the item, your guild starts inside roll (or whatever) via DKP system.
Now the interesting part.
Let's say your tanks and healers don't use DPS spec at all. Even if they have one they don't gear it, using it in PvP only and they will never play DPS in raids.
Now they decide to farm DKP so they won't spend any DKP to get an item. So they announce MS change to DPS not to actually get items for theirs DPS specs they will never play, but just to prevent pugs from getting those items. So 2 tanks and 5 healers change their MS to DPS even tho they will never play DPS in raids. Hence you have to outroll 7 additional players that will never use and was never going to use that item.

And? If the raid rules said that's how it's going to be, you have the option of not joining such Guild run. If you do still join, you accept the odds being that, as per the declared raid rules, you probably won't have a shot at highly sought items.

[AzureOrc]

And? If the raid rules said that's how it's going to be, you have the option of not joining such Guild run. If you do still join, you accept the odds being that, as per the declared raid rules, you probably won't have a shot at highly sought items.

That's the point. This detail is never announced.
Some guilds go further allowing to roll cloth/leather with spirit to paladins and shamans, WITHOUT mentioning it, just to take them away from cloth pugs.
Another option is a tank changing MS to DPS to roll for a unique trinket he won't even be able to get in the inventory because he/she already has one.

Nobody is arguing that it's my decision to join or not to join guild runs, but this doesn't change the ninja nature of such acts of the guilds.

[Obnoxious]

That's the point. This detail is never announced.
Some guilds go further allowing to roll cloth/leather with spirit to paladins and shamans, WITHOUT mentioning it, just to take them away from cloth pugs.
Another option is a tank changing MS to DPS to roll for a unique trinket he won't even be able to get in the inventory because he/she already has one.

Nobody is arguing that it's my decision to join or not to join guild runs, but this doesn't change the ninja nature of such acts of the guilds.

It isn't ninja unless it breaks the raid's rules. If the rules said that the Tank can roll for DD and they win, whatever they do with the item is up to them, even up to deleting or giving it away (I'm saying this about items that can be won, of course... rolling for an item the character wouldn't even be able to receive is abusing it). What will be done by items won isn't part of a raid's rules, only who gets to roll on what.

[angrylol]

What I can add is, every player should specify and ask raid leaders about cloth/leather and who changed MS, any rules about specific items, etc. If they squirm and don't make it clear - kthxbai.
It is totally ninja if tanking player changes MS and he already has the items. But in this case OP didn't mention anything like that, all the odds and amount of players rolling for what was disclosed and agreed by everyone.

Truth is... The game was rigged from the start.
Doesn't make it ninjalooting.