WotLK Proposal of a new Paladin build: Vampiric Paladin

[Koldwen]

---------- INDEX

1. INTRODUCTION..
2. GEAR AND PLAYSTYLE.
3. SEALS, JUDGEMENT, AND WEAPON ENCHANT.
4. TALENTS AND GLYPHS.
5. SUMMARY.





1. INTRODUCTION

Greetings, I'm Koldwen. Althought I'm not a main tank, nor a main paladin, I've been playing around with them for a long time trying the most common tank builds and trying to find new ones that can be equally good or better (or at least viable).

I've always enjoyed the gameplay style of block-based tanks (warrior, paladin), but I also found pretty fun and useful the self-healing of a DK. I always thought that a DK with shield and some block mechanics would be great, but unfortunately DKs can't equip shields and the self-healing that other tanks can provide is not that great to be considered a reliable "defensive".

However, Paladins talents and abilities are quite diverse, offering pretty much anything you want. You can use seals and judgements to regenerate mana, deal damage or... regenerate life.

While I always thought that Paladin self-healing is something pretty useful while leveling, never considered it a viable option for raids because the lack of aggro or the poor healing that it provides. Taking a closer look to how mechanics and abilities worked, I started to change my mind and I highly believe that I've found a new viable self-healing Paladin build.

Note that this build might have been tested and tried before, but I'm not aware of that and for that reason I apologize for my ignorance. Otherwise, I present you my "Vampiric Paladin" build, based around the idea of the DKs self-healing while providing everything that a Paladin can offer.

Also note that this is pretty much my first "guide" (this is not a guide, but a proposal) and I don't really know how to stylize forum posts, so I'll try to make it as cleaner as possible.





2. GEAR AND PLAYSTYLE.

To make it clear, this build does not change how you play a Paladin or how you equip it. You gear the same as the common protection paladin build, and your rotation is also the same. What this build really changes is the philosophy behind what you are building.

With the classic paladin build (0/52/19 variations) you focus on increasing your aggro so your hardcore dps can keep pumping. To achieve that, you even ignore talents like Divinity, and you use dps seals like Seal of Corruption or Seal of Command. You even go for %crit to get that extra aggro on your target.

While this is a nice build that yields goods results, it completely ignores someting very important: You don't really have to worry about aggro unless you are playing in a highly competitive enverionment, or you are undergeared compared to your dps.

This means that most people will pick this build just because "it is the best" without really understanding why do you even go for dps talents as a tank. Most dps in pugs or even in guilds are fairly low (or at least not hight enough to worry about aggro), as I've experienced many times. Even with an undergeared tank I've been able to hold aggro of very well-geared dps just because they can't do that much dps (whether because they are just being lazy, gentle, or simply don't know their class).

Most of you may think that this is not a problem, but actually it is. Your first and more important job as a tank is being alive, if you can hold aggro without the dps talents then you should focus on survability instead of getting that extra aggro that you don't even need. This is exactly what this build does: Focus on survability. While it is true that your aggro output will be lower (I still haven't calculated how much), it will be still good enough to tank without problems in almost any raid group.

This build is intended to be useful in progression where your tanks are still getting hit very hard and you have to be very careful about your damage income, for soloing content, or simply for fun (if you like the idea of being a Paladin while having the self-healing mechanic of a DK).





3. SEALS, JUDGEMENT, AND WEAPON ENCHANT.

---------- 3.1. SEAL

This build revolves around the use of Seal of Light. Yes, you've read it well, Seal of Light (https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=20165). You are probably thinking right now "How am I supposed to hold aggro with a non-dps seal?", but I will explain you why this seal is tricky and can be actually used to generate a fairly good amount of aggro, both for aoe and single target.

Have you ever wondered why, sometimes, your healer takes aggro from you? Thats because almost all healing abilities generate aggro. This aggro is usually so low that healers never have to worry about it unless your tank is sleeping or they are healing gods. This is also the case for the healing that you recieve with Seal of Light: Each time it procs, you generate aggro for EVERY enemy, as it is a heal.

This, itself, is not enough to hold aggro, but here's the tricky part: the heal is also from the holy school. This means that Righteous Fury (https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=25780) will increase its aggro by 80%.

You may still be wondering "Well, it's true that it generates aggro, but it still not enough because it doesn't proc that much", and you are right. This itself is not enough to make a decent amount of aggro or generate a noticeable self-healing. However the seal have a very high proc rate (20 PPM), and it also procs from any melee damaging ability.

This means that it not only procs from our AA, but also from some of our abilities, increasing a lot the number of healings and, therefore, your threat (both for AoE and single target). It can even proc several times with one single Hammer of the Righteous (https://wotlk.evowow.com/spell=53595), increasing A LOT your self-healing and threat. Now everything is starting to make sense, isn't it?

Aside from using this seal, you should try to use the slowest weapon you have, since this procs is PPM based. This means that using a slower weapon will make it more likely to proc from your damaging melee abilities and AA (you'll understand this in the TALENTS section).



---------- 3.2. JUDGEMENT

The judgement you use isn't very important because in a raid you'll have, at least, 2 paladins (enough to have both judgements). However, you should always try to use Judgement of Light, because:

1. This judgement should never fall of from bosses.
2. You can switch targets and still hit an enemy with the Judgement of Light on, allowing you to heal yourself more.

If, for some reason, you have mana issues, consider using Judgement of Wisdom.

One important note is that ability works similar to Seal of Light: It can procs from both AA and melee damaging abilities, and it is PPM based. However, these healings WON'T INCREASE YOUR THREAT.

Only with Seal of Light and Judgement of Light alone you can heal yourself a farily decent amount, but believe me, it gets better.



---------- 3.3. WEAPON ENCHANT

Here you can use whatever you like, because weapon enchants are not that good unless you are a DK. You can go for Mongoose if you are comfortable with it, or go for Lifeward (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=44576/lifeward) or Blood Draining (https://www.wowhead.com/item=46348/f...blood-draining) for the "build fantasy".

- Lifeward is a PPM (around 3.5, some say) weapon enchant that heals around 400 per proc, and being able to crit. It can also proc from damaging abilities, and can proc several times from a single ability (like HotR).

- Blood Draining is also a PPM (around 4, some say) weapon enchant that puts a buff on you that can stack up to 5 times. Once you fall below 35%, the buff is consumed and you get healed based on the amount of stacks (up to 2k, being able to crit). It takes around 40s to get all stacks.

Lifeward will help you better in AoE situations and will be always there, but its healing is quite poor and it will usually heal you when "you don't need it". Its like having a HoT on you.

Blood Draining will help you better in single target and will only be useful in situations where there is some serious damage (aka, Boss fights). It will always heal you "when you need it the most", but nothing else.

Overall, Lifeward will provide more healing that Blood Draining and will help you in every situation, "flattening" all incoming damage. I recommend Lifeward, as it also way cheaper than Blood Draining.





4. TALENTS AND GLYPHS.
---------- 4.1. TALENTS

They key concepts of this build are:

1. Seal of Light generate threat (both for single target and AoE) and proc from AA and any melee damaging ability.
2. Seal of Light proc is PPM based.
3. Judgement of Light proc from AA and any melee damaging ability.
4. Judgement of Light proc is PPM based.
5. Lifeward and Blood Draining can proc from AA and any melee damaging ability.
6. Lifeward and Blood Draining proc is PPM based.

This means that:

1. Using slower weapons will highly increase your self-healing (from your melee damaging abilities).
2. Getting extra strikes outside of your AA will also highly increase your self-healing.
3. The more you heal yourself, the more threat you generate on every single enemy.
4. Any healing buff will increase your threat.

With that in mind, this is the talents that this build use: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZE...sIufzxf:pjkczm

As you can see, its not very different from the classic protadin pve build. However, here's the following changes and why:

1. We pick Divinity because it will increase all your healing recieved (from either healers or your self-healing), increase survavility and threat.
2. We pick Reckoning to get extra AAs, increasing our self-healing and threat.

If you know about parry-haste, you are probably thinking that taking Reckoning is a terrible idea, but that is only an excuse for lazy, or naive, players. Not all bosses have parry-haste enabled, and you can use macros to remove Reckoning while using your normal rotation when you face a parry-haste boss. You can even use your second spec to completely remove this talent while maintining everything else.

Sure, maybe the planets align and there will be a fraction of second where Reckoning is active, in that fraction of second you hit the boss, and it parry-haste twice killing you in a fatal blow because you don't have Ardent Defender, but the odds of that happening are so low that its pointless to even consider it. It could also happen that, without Reckoning, the boss parry-haste you twice in a row and kills you, yet I don't see anyone overcapping expertise to reduce those odds.


---------- 4.2. GLYPHS

Since we always use Seal of Light, we have one free glyph that we can fill with something else. I highly recommend going for Glyph of Salvation > Glyph of Judgement > Glyph of HotR.

1. Glyph of HotR will increase your AoE threat and self-healing (only in AoE situations), but it is quite pointless on single target (aka, most bosses).

2. Glyph of Judgement will increase your single target threat in all situations, and its a good choice if you need that extra threat but don't want go change this build.

3. Glyph of Salvation is the best choice out there, and its a great CD against heavy damaging abilities (like soul reaper) or heavy incoming damage (like a bunch of big adds). Note that this glyph must be played cleverly, and you must understand well how Hand of Salvation works.

Hand of Salvation reduces your total threat by 2% every second, for 10s. This leads us to three possible scenarios where we can use it safely on ourselves:

1. Use it right at the start:

As it works with percentages, it means that the greater your threat, the greater it will reduce it. For example, 2% out of 100 is just 2, but 2% out of 1M is 20k. However, your threat generation is usually constant, which means that at the start you will generate "the same" threat as 4 min later. If you use Hand of Salvation on yourself at the start, it will almost ignore your threat because you are still building it up, so you can safely keep it on for 10s without worrying of losing aggro.

2. Use it when there is big threat difference between you and your dps:

Even if you are 4 min into the fight, you can still use it on yourself for full duration if the threat difference between you and your dps is so big that it wont make a difference. However, I suggest you to always keep an eye to your threat table when you do this, and have a macro ready to remove your Hando of Salvation if your threat is going way too low.

3. Use it only to reduce heavy incoming damage:

Even if you are struggling to keep threat, you can still use Hand of Salvation to cleverly reduce heavy incoming damage. For example, you can use Hand of Salvation and let it last only 2s (removing it with a macro). That way, you can use it for big damage (for example, soul reaper), but still keep your threat (as it will only reduce 2% for every second you have it on).





5. SUMMARY.

- Always use Seal of Light.
- Try to always use Judgement of Light, use Judgement of Wisdom if you have mana issues.
- Try to use slower weapons.
- Talents: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZE...sIufzxf:pjkczm
- Have a macro ready to remove Reckoning, and another one to remove Hand of Salvation out of yourself.
- Enchant your weapon with Lifeward or Blood Draining.
- You rotation and gear is pretty much the same as the classic build.

[Koldwen]

In case you are wondering how much can you heal yourself with this build, here's an example from my fresh 80 undergeared protadin (Frostmourne):

https://imgur.com/a/Fgugo1g

These two pictures show the total healing in VH HC. Druid healed me for 525k, while I healed myself alone 501k.

Remember that all this self-healing scales with my gear, so thats a great amount of self-healing for a fresh 80.

[Koldwen]

UPDATE:

Today I did OS 10 0D solo tank with my Frostmourne protadin, here is the healing on Sartharion: https://imgur.com/a/9NS7Nhk

Druid healed me for 304k, HPal healed me for 141k, I healed myself for 129k.

I healed myself way more than that, but HPal refused to use Judgement of Wisdom, so we were fighting to keep our Judgement of Light on boss (there was a retribution using Judgement of Wisdom, of course). Also most of my self-healing was overhealing too (463k), because OS 10 0D is a pretty easy fight.

I had no problem with threat, even without using ToT, MD, or using Hand of Salvation on myself.

[Koldwen]

UPDATE:

Today I've also done Naxx 10 with my Frostmourne protadin. I was OT (3.5k gs) while the MT was a DK (3.8k gs): https://imgur.com/a/g0o6gdo

DK self-healing as MT: 1.04M (total)
My self-healing as OT: 1.33M (total)

As expected, threat wasn't a problem and, to my surprise, I managed to heal myself (as an OT) even more than the MT (who is a DK). This is someting that I really didn't expect, as I thought that this self-healing build wouldn't be able to compete with the DK self-healing (I expected it to be lower, but still noticeable).

These results not only prove that this build is pretty viable (for now) both as MT or OT, but also prove that the self-healing of this build can be even greater than the self-healing that a DK can offer. Also keep in mind that not only I have this great self-healing, that can compete with a DK, but I also have (as a paladin) way more mitigation that a DK can offer (+Ardent Defender).

I will keep using this build for now, trying to see how well it perform at more difficult content. If this build keeps yielding such great results, then I would really consider the perfomance of a DK vs Paladin: If a Paladin can heal himself the same, or even more, than a DK while still providing all the Paladin's defensives, then it would be very clear that Paladin >>> DK in almost any fight.

DK still provides way more threat though.

NOTE: If another paladin use Judgement of Light on your target, you may think that your self-healing is poor because the healing table does not reflect the Judgement of Light healing as yours (but it is still there, just on the other Pally healing). In this example, I was the only one casting Judgement of Light, so the true potential of this self-healing can be seen on the results.

NOTE 2: I made a mistake and didn't count the Judgement of Light self-healing of the DK, so his total self-healing was 1.04M + 1.12M = 2.16M. This is almost the double self-healing that I did but still mine was pretty good considering that I was OT (and therefore my damage income was way lower), and he was more geared than me (so both Judgement and his abilities healed mored %hp).

[Levvy]

As a prot paladin, you are not designed to be a specialist in any one particular way, but rather as a jack of all trades.

This build attempts to specialize prot paladin utilizing its low scaling, pitter patter healing with seal of light by sacrificing essential and much more impactful talents, particularly if you are trying to 'carry' through progression.

There are many things to say about this build you propose and I'm not going to crunch numbers (as the core prot builds do all the number crunching you need.) However, there are some glaring poor fundamentals in this thread (see below in no order)

1. Seal of Light is used already in situational fights. It is infinitely more useful as a situational ability rather than for the general use-case your propose. Seal of Vengeance is vastly superior, not only because of the obscene imbalanced glyph called seal of vengeance (11 expertise which is ESSENTIAL against getting parry hasted), but because it provides 200 strength if holding the libram (blockvalue/damage/threat/spellpower/scaling) and tremendously enhances your damage (we're talking like 500 dps vs just sitting like a duck in SoL - it is not insignificant). However, the EXPERTISE is a KEY REASON for seal of vengeance's use case. Look up parry haste if you don't understand. What's the point of doing 10k healing over 30 seconds vs receiving 2 hits for 40k burst in a parry reset within the span of 3 seconds?

This is only further exasperated by the raid-boss philosophy of WOTLK which heavily favors burst-projected damage rather than itty-bitty multi-sourced damage (BQL is one exception -> the fight itself provides mechanic to mitigate threat issues hence why seal of light is the way to go as an OT is the best way to go).

2. I touched on this briefly in (1) but again Paladin is a jack-of-all-trades. Good paladins frequently stance dance because we need to. Seal of Command for instance has a much wider application and is ESSENTIAL for tanking big packs effectively and conveniently. If you don't understand this, you clearly do not have enough experience in the field or you have an amazing hunter/rogue friend who is holding your hand and staying silent about it.

3. Reckoning is a bad talent. 5 Points is a tremendous waste. It does not stack with itself, you might as well just put 1 point in it if you are going to run reckoning, but to neglect the ret tree to such an extent is embarassing quite frankly. I mean in Protection Tree alone, you could place points into Judgements of the Just. Often times, particularly in 10 man settings and almost always in 5 man settings, this debuff will be provided by NO ONE ELSE. 20% longer swing time = 20% less melee damage over the duration of a battle. In retribution, similarly there is Vindication which is almost permanent uptime on 500 AP debuff which again, ESPECIALLY if you are solo tanking, being provided by NO ONE ELSE.

Then there is Seal of Command which you neglect, can't be bothered to spend 1 point in, rather 2% chance on reckoning proc that doesn't even stack with itself. It's not even a healing talent, has much better mileage which a dps seal? I know you said you don't care about damage/threat as a tank (what??????) but Crusade, the free-est 6% efficient damage increase across the board? 7%-15% movement speed with Pursuit of Justice for fights that require swift positional changes or kiting?

3. The weapon enchants, just are you kidding me? The healing weapon enchants have horrendous ppm and healing values, not to mention you have no control over when the healing comes (overhealing=waste). Mongoose provides dodge, armor, and a respectable melee haste for a class that thrives off of seals.

4. Your screenshots/recount has very little credibility because judgement of light, first of all you're stealing it from your hpaladin who actually has talents that boost its output much more significantly than your own??????? and second of all Judgement of Light can be used in any other prot paladin spec with a better spec spread for the same results. It is also the biggest inflationary healing spell in the game. Its just healing pad lmao.

5. As I said, Prot paladin is tremendously versatile and in that versatility is what provides its value. Your build chooses bad talents over good talents, does not dramatically change anything other than any old protection paladin sitting in seal of light.

6. Glyph of Salvation. Wtf.

7. Vampiric build? There is no life leech anywhere. This is your fantasy not reality.

[Koldwen]

I appreciate your criticism and your advice, Levvy, but you clearly didn't read what I wrote. You just took a brief look while completely ignoring things that I even stated. I will answer your points, and explain to you why you didn't even take your time to read it well.

1. I'm aware of what parry-haste is. I even mentioned it in this proposal. But:

1.1 First of all, not all bosses have parry-haste, as I mentioned. Expertise is great, that's right, but it's not always a must, especially for those bosses that don't even have parry haste. That's why it's not rare to see, sometimes, a tank who doesn't reach expertise or hit cap to get other stats. I've tanked myself*both 10m and 25m raids without reaching expertise or hit*(sometimes, not always) and you can do it completely fine (unless you are very, very unlucky). Remember that just because you reach the expertise "cap", your boss can still parry you (unless you go for hard-cap).

And yes, Glyph of Seal of Vengeance gives good expertise (10, not 11), but you can still reach it without problems if you don't use it. It might sound crazy to you, but warriors can reach expertise without glyphs like these.



1.2. The second big point that you completely missed, and that I clearly mentioned, is that, and I quote, "You don't really have to worry about aggro unless you are playing in a highly competitive environment, or you are undergeared compared to your dps." 200 strength is cool, but if you can hold*threat without problem, why do you even need that 200 strength? Sure, your damage will increase by 500 dps and you'll kill the boss 10 seconds sooner (which doesn't matter unless you are in a very competitive environment).

You mention block value, but I don't think you are aware of how well block value scales: 200 strength is roughly equal to 100 block value (100 damage reduced on each block), quite pointless unless you are tanking ToC 25 HC.



1.3. Another thing that you missed, and that (again) I also mentioned, is that this build does not heal you for "10k over 30s", it heals you way more than that. I mentioned that, at the beginning, I was very sceptical of this build because I didn't think that it could heal that much (just as you said), but the thing is that it heals you pretty well, as I showed in the images below. Also, the comparison that you propose is pretty silly, because that situation can happen whether you have 30 expertise or 20 expertise.

Even if you have 30 expertise, it can still happen that your boss parry-hastes you twice and kills you, making your point pointless unless you want to reach the hard-cap. Following your logic, I could also argue that it is better to go for full hard-cap to avoid this situation, but this is obviously silly because you will miss other stats and expertise is not that great unless you face parry-haste bosses. Whether you take the glyph of expertise or not, you'll end up with 26 expertise.

The reason why this glyph is so good, as you say, is not because of expertise itself, but because it allows you to get other useful stats. For example, if you have to gem expertise to get that +10 expertise, you would roughly need four +20 expertise gems. With the glyph, you can use stamina gems instead, receiving four +30 stamina gems, which is equal to 1200 hp. For survivability, do you prefer 1200 hp or healing yourself more than 1 k per second? The answer is quite obvious.



2. As I said, this is not a guide. I'm not telling you how to play a paladin; rather, I'm suggesting a different way to play a paladin that includes self-healing. If you are going to face a boss that requires extra threat, you can just use a dps seal even with this build. I already tanked Malygos and Hodir with my Frostmourne protadin (you can check it, "Buitre") and I used Seal of Corruption because I knew that I would need extra threat for those specific fights. If you prefer to play like a no-brainer and follow a build without even bothering to understand why it is like it is (even if I mention the threat part), then it's not the build's fault, but yours.



3.1. This point is just plain silly:

3.1.1. If I wanted to go that deep into the retribution tree (to pick threat increase talents), then this build would be no different than the classic build. If I wanted threat, I would just go for the classic build (which I clearly stated is a good build and highly increases your threat). The point of this build is to focus on survivability (with more healing), not threat.

3.1.2. There's almost no talent difference between this build and the classic build. You're simply exchanging 6% extra damage and 7% crit (depending on which talent you choose) for 5% extra healing and Reckoning (which also increases your healing and helps you with threat).Saying things like "reckoning is a tremendous waste" just proves that you didn't even try to understand what this build aims for. There's literally no better talent aside from Reckoning for what it wants to achieve. You either go for 5% crit (which is not the point of this build and doesn't help with survability), Vindication (which other classes can provide and better: Bears, all warriors), or Judgements of the Just (which other classes can provide and better: All DKs, Arms/Prot Warr, Ferals).

3.1.3. That's why raid comp is so important. If you can't make a good raid comp, then it's your fault, not this build's fault. In 10 man or 5 man, you will usually miss buffs. It's up to you to decide which ones. I could also argue that if this build is bad for not taking Judgements of the Just, then the classic build would also be bad for not taking it either (yet it has been proven many times that it is a great build).

3.1.4. You can change some of the abilities of this build.This is not "The 10 Commandments". If you want to change something because you prefer it that way, you can do it. I noticed that I don't need Seal of Command for an AoE threat, but if you need it, just go ahead. I also never said that I don't care about threat; that would be pretty stupid considering that one very important job as a tank is being able to hold threat. What I meant to say is that most DPSers are just not that good and can't generate enough threat to be worried about. If threat is not a problem, it is pointless to go for more threat. If you need more threat, then obviously you should go for the classic build.

3.1.5. The speed increase is good, but it is only useful if you are likely to make mistakes with your positioning. If you know how to position and move, the speed increase isn't that good. You can even use potions of swiftness in case you need to make an emergency move. Warriors, for example, can still tank even without a speed boost.



3.2. This is getting quite repetitive, but, as I said, weapon enchants don't really matter unless you are a DK. I said that "You can go for Mongoose if you are comfortable with it, or go for Lifeward ... or Blood Draining ... for the "build fantasy". I never said that Life Draining was better than Mongoose. What I mean is that, if you enjoy the idea of self-healing, you can go for Lifeward as an alternative to Mongoose. By the way, melee haste is bad when you face parry-haste bosses (ironic, isn't it?).



4. Judgement of Light heals the same regardless of who casts it (https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w...ement_of_Light, see patch changes), and you already have Divinity (the only one who could increase it). Making your healer cast a judgement every 20 seconds is making him lose 3 GCD per minute, while you can just use Judgement of Light and save him that time. HPals should only judge when there is no other paladin for light or wisdom, and to refresh Judgements of the Pure.

As I explained, Judgement of Light is PPM based, and it can proc from both your AAs and abilities. The classic build can't heal itself more than this build with Judgement of Light because this build has more AAs (Reckoning) than the classic build. The reason why I show Judgement of Light healing is for people to notice the increase.

I also explained that yes, any Paladin can cast Judgement of Light and you would heal yourself the same amount. However, if my HPal cast Judgement of Light then that self-healing would count as his healing, making results tricky and not reliable. In those results, I was the only one using Judgement of Light, and therefore all that self-healing was attributed to me, showing the true potential clearly.

5. What this build changes is the threat increase for more healing income (survivability). Nothing else. The classic build is made to generate as much threat as possible. This build is to generate as much healing income as possible.

6. I won't even answer this; you didn't read it. If you want to know why, take your time reading it.

7. It's just a name that I chose because I tried to introduce the self-healing mechanic of a DK into a Paladin. You can just call it Koldwen's Build, Self-Healing Paladin, or don't even give it a name. I don't know why this is even a point. To be honest, it just shows your lack of creativity.

Most abilities don't even have particles or noticeable animations, yet you choose to imagine that it is what it is just because it is called "X" instead of "Y". Take an affliction warlock, rename some abilities, swap out demon models for undead models, and... surprise! you now have a necromancer instead of a warlock!

[Levvy]

Parry-haste affects enough bosses that in a run, you are likely to face one. Seal of Light, by contrast, can be used by any paladin build when the need arises. But guess what, you will have to speak up and let the raid know that all the negligible healing from your selfish losing-utility build is going to be negated and that you are ill-equipped to tank those bosses. In fact the MAJORITY of bosses up until the raids past 3.2 have parry haste. That means MOST OF ULDUAR, MOST OF NAXX, into ONY, SINDY, HALION, Worms, Icehowl, LDW.

Judgement of Light, though changed in Patch 3.2 to heal 2% max health STILL PROCS Trauma (ICC), a common 264/277 drop and Valanyr BiS (ULD), PARTICULARLY Valanyr. If you truly want to tank heal, perhaps Valanyr would be the bis weapon for your build.

I simply do not like this build. I think the philosophy is selfish, an ode to an archaic time where the tank is the center of attention AKA everyone must play around HIM, his survival, rather than the raid's survival. To maximize the healing of a Seal of Light build, you take Hand of Salvation away from top DPS w/ no threat clear such as Boomys and FWarrs and make them throttle behind you. In fact, you hold the whole raid up, because rather than reducing the duration of a boss fight, you actually extend it by compounding your weak threat on top of your pathetic damage output with Seal. This essentially lessens the survivability and efficiency of your raid group instead favoring your weak healing.

I mean all your build does is add reckoning 5/5 (which is trash) and sit in Seal of Light. You take Protection Paladin which is one of the best toolboxes in the game and instead willingly nerf it to be a wannabe blood dk with less on demand healing and without salvation, demo roar, AS slow, and pitiful dps and threat.

If this build is the sword you want to die on, sure go ahead. But I would NOT recommend this build to ANYBODY.

[Koldwen]

I will answer again to your points, although you are repeating yourself. I will try to make it simpler this time.

1. Whether you take this build or the classic build, you will end up with 26 expertise. Nothing more, nothing less. You are equally prepared to face any parry-haste boss with this build or the classic build.

2. I'm sorry to disappoint you but no, not that many bosses have parry-haste enabled. Mostly only dragons have it. If that were the case, I wouldn't even able to do naxx 10 with 3.5k gs, or half bosses of Ulduar 10 with 3.7k gs (as I'm running around with ONLY 12 expertise). And guess what, I did it without problems (you can check it on armory, "Buitre").

3. Val'Anyr shields you for 15% of the healing done to you. That means that 15% out of 2% of your total health is... 0.02*0.15= 0.003, aka 0.3% of your total HP as a shield. Just so you can see it better, 0.3% out of 100k HP, is just a 300 HP shield. This is completely neglectable for your tank, and even more for your dps that usually have around 25k HP (75 HP shield). The only situations where it might be sligthly useful is when you face aura damage bosses, like Sindra, and you can simply allow your HPal to use Judgement of Light on those situations.

The real reason why HPals run around with Val'Anyr, is not because of Judgement of Light proc, but because Holy Light heals A LOT and it heals 2 selected targets at the same tame (beacon, and your target). You are putting 2 big shields on people who NEED IT the most.

Similarly to Trauma, the reason why HPals picks it is just because it has good stats for them, but this isn't even their BiS weapon. Val'Anyr > Bloodsurge > Trauma. Trauma's proc is not that good, it is only useful when you face bosses like Sindra.

If you still want so bad to let your HPal judge making him waste 3 GCD, just to get a 1% increase on random healing or absorbs (instead of getting direct heals on targets who REALLY need it), then just let them use Judge of Light. As I said, it doesn't matter who judge, because you are going to heal yourself the same amount.

4. If you don't like this build then... just don't play it. If you prefer a build that revolves around extra threat because you are comfortable with it, just play it. If you prefer a build that revolves around extra survivabiliy, then you can go for this one.

5. How exactly is this build selfish, and how does it makes people play around you? I clearly stated that your gameplay is exactly the same as the classic build, nothing changes. You are just trading threat talents and seals for survivablity ones.

6. You say that I'm holding the whole raid, but that just proves that you didn't even take your time to read or understand why this build is like this. I will quote section 2:

"You don't really have to worry about aggro unless you are playing in a highly competitive enverionment, or you are undergeared compared to your dps.

This means that most people will pick this build just because "it is the best" without really understanding why do you even go for dps talents as a tank. Most dps in pugs or even in guilds are fairly low (or at least not hight enough to worry about aggro), as I've experienced many times. Even with an undergeared tank I've been able to hold aggro of very well-geared dps just because they can't do that much dps (whether because they are just being lazy, gentle, or simply don't know their class).

Most of you may think that this is not a problem, but actually it is. Your first and more important job as a tank is being alive, if you can hold aggro without the dps talents then you should focus on survability instead of getting that extra aggro that you don't even need. This is exactly what this build does: Focus on survability."

7. I also said that you if want to play like a no-brainer, using a build without understanding why it is like it is, then its your fault. If you have a top DPS that is always catching up with you on threat, then this is not the build for you. If it is a very specific fight where your DPSers gets a boost (for example, Malygos), you can simply save your Hand of Salvation for them.

8. You take Reckoning because there is no better choice for suvivability with this build, I already explained it. You don't lose Salvation (you can still use it for others, who would have thought), you don't lose demo roar (other classes will bring it and better, and its neglectable against bosses), you don't lose AS slow (you'll pretty much ALWAYS have a DK unless you go for 5 mans), and I already explained why you lose that dps and threat.

[angrylol]

Druid healed me for 304k, HPal healed me for 141k, I healed myself for 129k.

And if you played normal build it would have been

Druid 350k, hpal 220k

with exactly the same end result

conclusion, sure, meme specs are great fun, but in the end - stay in your line, let healers heal and you as a tank - tank it.

[Koldwen]

And if you played normal build it would have been

Druid 350k, hpal 220k

with exactly the same end result

conclusion, sure, meme specs are great fun, but in the end - stay in your line, let healers heal and you as a tank - tank it.

And you are missing the entire point of what I propose in this build, and what it aims for. If I can perfectly hold threat with this build, and this is not a speed run, there's absolutely no point in picking dps talents to either kill the boss a few seconds sooner, or get extra threat that I already don't need. Its like using dps trinkets even though you can hold threat with your tank ones. Like you say, "let your DPSers dps and you as a tank - tank it".

Playing the normal build, as you propose, would've just made my healers job harder without any good reason (and it would also make my job harder, as it is more likely that I die). This build aims to get more survivability (something that any healer appreciate), and results show that it effectively help.

[Persivaln]

No, you can't hold threat with such build. Raids with newbish pugs are not sign of quality. And yes, you will die to parry-haste once you step to ICC/RS25 hc.
Faster raid kills bosses > lesser chances for mistake to fck things up. And by doing your "genius" seal healing, you not only reduce your own DPS and TPS, but also reduce DPS of your raid due to warrs, mages, boomies etc being unable to go all-in and constantly float at 90% threat

[Koldwen]

No, you can't hold threat with such build. Raids with newbish pugs are not sign of quality. And yes, you will die to parry-haste once you step to ICC/RS25 hc.
Faster raid kills bosses > lesser chances for mistake to fck things up. And by doing your "genius" seal healing, you not only reduce your own DPS and TPS, but also reduce DPS of your raid due to warrs, mages, boomies etc being unable to go all-in and constantly float at 90% threat

1. I quote myself: "You don't really have to worry about aggro unless you are playing in a highly competitive enverionment, or you are undergeared compared to your dps.". I also said that if threat is a problem, then this is not the build for you.

2. I also quote myself: "you can use macros to remove Reckoning while using your normal rotation when you face a parry-haste boss. You can even use your second spec to completely remove this talent while maintining everything else.". You will end up with 26 expertise, whether you take this build or the classic one, so you'll face the same problem with or without this build.

3. I also answered this, but no, you don't reduce the DPS of your raid. If you see that people are starting to catch up with you on threat, simply go for the classic build. And no, your DPS as a tank won't make a noticeable difference unless its a very long fight, or you are trying to speed run something.

4. And yes, you can hold threat. I already did, even without rogues or hunters.

Please, if you are going to say things that are already explained and answered, don't even bother to make post because you'll just make everybody lose their time, even yours. Read everything that has been written, think about it, and then decide if your post is meaningful or not.

[Persivaln]

Sure, noone plays game better than you.

But one important thing - while posting it on open forum, be ready that players will come and tell what's wrong with such "genius hidden builds". Or don't post at all.
Because right now it looks like "shaman tank guide" from one lunatic on same forum.

[Levvy]

And you are missing the entire point of what I propose in this build, and what it aims for. If I can perfectly hold threat with this build, and this is not a speed run, there's absolutely no point in picking dps talents to either kill the boss a few seconds sooner, or get extra threat that I already don't need. Its like using dps trinkets even though you can hold threat with your tank ones. Like you say, "let your DPSers dps and you as a tank - tank it".

Playing the normal build, as you propose, would've just made my healers job harder without any good reason (and it would also make my job harder, as it is more likely that I die). This build aims to get more survivability (something that any healer appreciate), and results show that it effectively help.

bruh. The entire point of this build is to exercise your own ego. The title, your replies, are convoluted and written with such audacity it is difficult to not shred even more brutally. "Proposition for a NEW build" when you can just say "What do you think of sitting in seal of light as prot paladin?" etc. This is just a lesson in basic human resources. To further illustrate this point, you refer to your description of the build as 'vampiric' as CREATIVE (l m f a o) - I could NOT contain my laughter.

Okay, but on to the actual ideas being discussed here. You can perfectly hold threat? On what 10 man? Even 10 man, I HIGHLY doubt it. Try this dangerous build in a 25 man.

Parry-haste. You swing from side to side saying a lot of noise, not sure WHAT your stance is. You say parry-haste does not matter, but then say that expertise is no problem anyway. Yeah I highly doubt that. Share your defenses (image) WITHOUT seal of vengeance glyph and show us that you have 26/26 which is a massive pain in the butt to have to accrue equipment for when you SHOULD be prioritizing bigger stats such as DEFENSE RATING, HIT RATING, STAMINA and GEM SOCKETS. How can you prio those stats and so easily get exp capped. It's not happening.

Furthermore, parry-haste is pretty much DEFAULT on regular mobs too up until 3.2. Any boss encounter with adds including adds themselves can have parry-haste.

2. Your posts seem to have this premise that seal of light has an incredible amount of healing (it does not), so much so that you are some un-killable genius. Tell me, what theoretical situations Seal of Light makes a difference. How does Seal of Light REALISTICALLY save your life than sitting in any other seal.

"You don't really have to worry about aggro unless you are playing in a highly competitive enverionment, or you are undergeared compared to your dps.

Second of all. SECOND OF ALL. You have no f*cking threat in this build. You're not expertised cap, you're not hit capped, you have no sustained holy threat outside of consecration or if you have to get off the boss or the boss runs off platform.

If you are missing all your spells, getting parried/dodged most of your swings, you're getting no procs off of Seal of Light, zero seal damage, Reckoning (you have pathetic crit) just glancing constantly and you SOMEHOW have no threat issues (l m f a o). You expect us to seriously believe that? It's not even undergeared dps at that point, you must be tanking alone in your dream.

[Koldwen]

Sure, noone plays game better than you.

But one important thing - while posting it on open forum, be ready that players will come and tell what's wrong with such "genius hidden builds". Or don't post at all.
Because right now it looks like "shaman tank guide" from one lunatic on same forum.

I never said that I'm the best Paladin, I even stated that I'm not a main Paladin. I accept criticism from everyone, but making points out of things that have been already answered is a waste of time. I also never claimed that this build is the best out there, is just an alternative to the classic one if you don't have problems with threat.