1. So why exactly is DBW so ''bad'' for paladin? You get armor pen which scales with your basic attack, divine storm, crusader attack and basically all that has weapon damage I think. So it's not that useless.
    DBW is "quite useless" since STS is a thing.
    More stats, 66% of the time the proc is superior and it even has better uptime.
    Your other slot is always going to be tiny abom, even if you'd overcap hit so bad you'd not use anything but the passive.

    DC HC/WFS HC are also superior to DBW, but for the sake of simplicity let's just assume nobody does togc or icc10hc due to the entire raid offering like 3 items in total worth the effort.
    You just have to understand DBW is by no means "unuseable" for a retpala. Many people I raided with ended up using for "for the memes" every once in a while and it's definitly not like they dropped off like not using a trinket at all. It's just so bad compared to other readily available options you have to be prepared to face consequences from other classes which actually use it. (And as a sidenote - most classes would gladly replace DBW with something else due to how bad the uptime/proc-lineup is on that thing. If there was an option for them.)

  2. Simple Facts about Paladin:
    -Melee Dps: You have to be close to target to hit =More time wasted running between adds and both
    -Low Melee Critical:your melee attacks(auto or special) critical chance is equal to your overall melee crit that shows on character sheet.
    which is the 2nd lowest among all melees (worst is DK) but unlike DKs which have talents to boost their melee crit chance paladins dont. (but they benefit a lot from Agility in terms of crit chance).
    -Your judgments have 13% more critical chance than than yout overall melee critical chance.
    -With Divine Strength and Blessing of Kings, you get 1.265 strength per 1 str:
    100 Str will give you 126.5 Str =253 AP
    -Sheath of Light talent will give you 30% of AP as SP.
    100 Str :126.5 Str =253 AP+79.5 sp
    -Your Judgments and seals benefit from SP and AP:
    Seal of command : benefits from AP only , buffs melee more than judgments,
    can crit, single attacks can also hit your target nearest ally.
    Seal of Light : benefits from both AP and SP, buffs your judgments more than melee,
    cannot crit.
    Seal of Corruption: benefits from both AP and SP, stacks 5 times, your auto attacks will do
    around 45% damage as holy, can crit.

    Now to simplify calculations I ignored all other buffs, and alot of other things, further more
    , lets assume you gain 20 dps per (10 AP+10 SP):
    you can use Dr.Damage for more accurate stats.
    100 str:
    253 AP + 79.5=328.9 DPS for judgments, seal (auto attacks applying seal), dots (blood corruption).
    253 AP=253 DPS for Melee attacks (auto attacks,Crusader,Divine Storm) .




    Explanations:
    1-Consistency with Gear level/setup:
    when you gear up and reach enough gear you are most likley to have all plate gear, hence DBW will excel as long as it doesn't procc haste.
    but as your gear gets better and better crit/agility won't be as effective as str (for pure pve dps purposes), a BiS paladin offsets are all agility , yet they gem stright str,why? because with raid buffs and that gear they will reach around 70% melee crit and 83% for judgements (not counting spell crit chance buffs?) and so they will benfit more from STR and AP more than they do from crit/agility.

    ====>Point 1:Depends on your gear level, as you get better: STR/AP is more effective than other stats.
    ====>Consistency: Most ICD45 trinkets (DC/WFS/STS) give str or AP ,which is better at higher gear levels.
    DBW is random between arp/haste/crit/agi/str, no way to control that procc to get better dps, at different levels.

    2- Duration: will compare DBW to DC (both hc):
    ------------------------------------------------------
    DBW :30 Sec Procc + 120 sec ICD
    DC :15 Sec Procc + 45 sec ICD =A procc every minute
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Fight Duration:2 min 30 sec
    DBW:1 Proccs 30 Sec Procc + 120 sec ICD,totally gained 700 STR
    DC :3 Proccs 45 Sec Procc + 105 sec ICD ,totally gained 1530 STR
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Fight Duration:5 min
    DBW:2 Proccs 60 Sec Procc + 240 sec ICD =1 Min Procc 4 Min on CD
    DC :5 Proccs 75 Sec Procc + 225 sec ICD =1 min +15 sec on procc, 3 min +45 sec on CD
    You gained 15 sec more on procc with ICD=45sec trinket.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Fight Duration:10 min
    DBW:4 Proccs 120 Sec Procc + 480 sec ICD =2 Min Procc 8 Min on CD,totally gained 2800 STR
    DC :10 Proccs 150 Sec Procc + 450 sec ICD =2 Min 30 Sec Procc, 7 Min +8 Sec on CD,totally gained 5100 STR
    You gained 30 sec more on procc with ICD=45sec trinket
    (and 2300 more str with DC 5100-2800=2300str, can you figure it out?)
    ------------------------------------------------------


    Now, because of ICD=45 sec,which proccs every min you are guaranteed to at least gain 1 more procc Fight 1).
    on the other hand at fight 2 you gained 15 sec more on procc, at fight 2 you gained 30.

    Total DPS for both in 10 min fight,Assuming you spent 100% time on boss (or adds) for each procc:
    DC: 2051.79 DPS (per sec) x 150 sec= 307768.5 Damage (with passive bonus)
    DBW: 2470.3 DPS (per sec) x 120 sec= 296436 Damage (1 Arp = 1 DPS)

    Passive bonus dps on CD time:
    DC:288+288x0.30 as sp=374.4 more damage every sec x450 sec=168480
    DBW: 168 dpsx480sec =80640 1 arp=1 DPS

    , DBW have a higher damage per second but DC have more overall (11332.5 more dps more).

    ====>Point 2: you gain more time on proccs , even (potentially) more proccs , for ICD 45 trinkets.

    3- Frequency and Timing: from point 2 you see more DC proccs than DBW:


    to explain Frequency consider DC which gives 510str / 60 sec= 27.9565 DPS (AP+SP):
    -If you have more 27.9565 dps (no DC/no DBW/ a 2nd trinket that gives you ~30dps)
    your overall dps will be less than if you have 510 str for 15 sec with 45 sec,why:
    -You time your proccs with wings, which gives 30% more holy damage.
    -Because of the low ICD 45, all your proccs (ring/weapon enchant /back enchant) are more likley to align more often.
    -Because with low duration and low ICD you are likley to get the full procc whether on boss or adds befor switching.
    -Hence you will hit alot harder WHEN it counts(attacking->proccing), more often!!
    -Now on hc raids in ICC not only you need to switch targets but also move to avoid damage (Marr flames, festergut spores, Bloodqueen shadow link,Sindra..etc), or just stop moving at all (BPC:Shadow prison), or kiting slimes (PP)........etc.
    if that happens just when DBW proccs, you basically lost 2min30sec till the next procc.
    if that happens just when ICD 45 proccs, you basically lost 1min till the next procc:
    it can procc on the next min, and again on the 30 sec left (compared to DBW).



    ====>Point 3: because you are melee dps you will spend a lot of time moving, to kill adds, to avoid damage,to help party members..etc.
    Conseuently, ICD45 trinkets will procc more frequently ,and you will be more likley to spend the whole duration on boss/adds,before the next wave of adds or mass AoE, or the next (Air) phase of boss fight.
    more uptime due to more proccs.

    4- Design Patterns:
    take a clue from T10(excluding hit /exp):
    Paladin:Crit,Haste.
    Enhc Shaman:Crit,Haste.
    Warrior,DK:Crit,Arp
    Feral,Rogue,Hunter:Crit,Arp,(with 1 haste piece).
    do you see arp for paladin or enhc do you see haste for warrior/dk??

    5- Paladins in bgs,another clue:

    DBW have 2470.3 DPS (per sec) for each spell (2051.79 for DC),that is more than any other trinket,but why do see human paladins running with x2 DC/DV in bgs? hitting with 18k judgement on 0 res and not even using wings?
    it's timing :2xDC/DV proccing at the same time on hit, and frequency: every 45 sec.
    Unlike using 2 of DV,WFS,STS: They have the same CD duration but proccs on different conditions.


    5-Conclusion:
    for pve dps ICD45 trinkets will outperform DBW.
    But for PVP: DBW have 2470.3 DPS (per sec) for each spell (2051.79 for DC), that's more than any other trinket, and for 15 sec more, crit/agility easily counters 1k resilience (-10% crit chance) with wings that gives 30% more holy damage and by pass 50% damage reduction effects, its way more better than any other trinket for burst damage (except when it proccs haste/arp), unless you are a human (aren't we all??) with 2 trinkets...
    The down side is the 2 min cd ofc.
    Edited: November 21, 2022

  3. Yea, for PVP DBW is a nice way to get kited for 30 secs.

  4. Are you sure? Guide by https://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325565 says otherwise.Crusader strike has a physical damage right? It says ''a weapon damage +'' so arp must help with damage? I mean I just read on the guide.
    https://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=337981The whole of the thread is a good read, some corrections made to the OP. But no, DBW is a terrible trinket for a Ret.

  5. Are you sure? Guide by https://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325565 says otherwise.

    Crusader strike has a physical damage right? It says ''a weapon damage +'' so arp must help with damage? I mean I just read on the guide.
    As far as I know arp doesn't affect DS and CS.
    Just create a ret on blackrock and hit the dummy with no gems vs full arp gems. Then you can see if it makes a difference to DS and CS.

  6. As far as I know arp doesn't affect DS and CS.Just create a ret on blackrock and hit the dummy with no gems vs full arp gems. Then you can see if it makes a difference to DS and CS.
    If you give the linked thread a thorough read, you'll understand that armor penetration is barely a consideration on the actual value of the trinket.

  7. WFs (hc) with DC (n) good enough?

    We know guys JAR is the hardest one to get. So before JAR, (i know dbw is not good deal)... What is better guys WFS hc with DC n or its better WFS hc with STS? Any one tried something like this? Weapon is still Shadows Edge...

  8. Regarding PvP arp

    The weapon AP coefficient and opponent type is everything, there is no black&white thinking with ret or any spec, and there'll never be a best way to play for all situations. If you want to counter warpals with pve ret, you go into 50% arp gear for Horde and whatever 65+ it is with dbw as well. If you're forced to abuse 3,4 bryntroll, the crit arp drop and worse AP coefficient for swings + Seals&lower base dmg make you go more into max potential full ap stack via death's choice + WG rune to be more magic focused - with exo glyph and higher haste. For the pansies that want to never be able to solo any healer and wish to play cookie cutter 5/5 wf and resil-focused gemming with jc + whatever, there's no reason to use STS as you're most likely also playing with 2/2 sacred and need consistent crits, whilst not having storm resets.

    Every talent variation you play has pros&cons, and I'd highly encourage you to install DrDamage and set it to max crit + to update with all key modifiers.
    Over time you'll crack the most optimal way for yourself.
    Lastly, even if your set sucks for the given opponent you should have multiple weapon&shield swaps. Hitting shields casted 0,5s before your gcd, that just so happen to absorb 100% of your crit judgement because you run too much agi gear and have lower AP, ain't fun. Get an mp5 resil 1h shield swap at the very least, especially if running 5/5 parry spec for parry haste to abuse t10 even harder.

    This game isn't reducable to numbers in perfect conditions; in pvp you can squish out extra juice out of your character by doing a wacky 'rotation' depending on fluctuating opponent resilience, stam, cds, buffs, DRs and overall knowledge of their setup and patterns that over time you see just by glancing.
    You can make just about any gear combination work if you play to its strengths

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