How do I even begin to get into raiding?

[MeestaPooPoo]

Im a 15+ year wow veteran who just came back to warmane a month or so ago, i have multiple 80's at 5400~ gearscaore and I just cannot seem to find any icc/rs that'll take me even if I have proven knowledge and dps. Constant 5.8k+ achieve and **** in LFG is disheartening. even with max toc gear non hc, that barely scraped 5.8k. What's the deal, any better ways to actually gear up rather than heroic farming until numb? Its definitely rough. Even as healing/tank specs.

[Obnoxious]

You can lead your own Raids with lower requirements.

[angrylol]

You need to find players to raid with(guild). Pugging around is cancer.

[Neric]

That is an issue, especially on Lordaeron where the content is buffed in comparison to Icecrown. There are a couple of ways to proceed: One is to boost gearscore with crafted items. These go for 4k-10k, but you can also farm the materials and convert your dungeon emblems into Primals and Frost Orbs. The other option is to join some "limited PuGs" who just do the first 4 bosses in ICC. That gets you at least the one achievement. Finally there are guilds who burn through newcomers and constantly need reinforcements. While these guilds are highly toxic and you will have to take a lot of mental abuse, it's a good way to gear up.

[angrylol]

Expecting to understand mechanics and know what to do is not toxic or abuse. Especially on Lordaeron, no one has time to pamper tourists.

[Obnoxious]

Expecting to understand mechanics and know what to do is not toxic or abuse.

The way people react to someone failing stuff is, though. Funnily enough, it mimics looking for real life jobs, where people expect 5 years of experience and multiple certifications for a starting position with the pay you'd expect for an intern (which sounds like the "loot distribution" that favors old members and leaves newcomers with leftovers).

[Neric]

Expecting to understand mechanics and know what to do is not toxic or abuse. Especially on Lordaeron, no one has time to pamper tourists.

That's exactly the attitude to expect in such guilds. You meet a bunch of sarcastic griefers who are essentially waiting for their last heroic piece from LK to become full-bis. If you as a newcomer do not make the impression that they can reach their goal with your help, you are instantly getting all their hate. Not knowing every boss ability that doesn't even matter to your class is treated like a crime against humanity or at least the ultimate proof of slacking. The best thing is that you are not allowed to make the mistakes that all these guys made themselves when doing this stuff for the first time. That's saracsm at it's best.

[Shred92]

It's a one-sided market: too many players wanting to raid and too few spots in guilds to fill. It makes sense that you have to know more than your basic rotation to get into one of those spots. Those who control the spots control the market and can ask for whatever they want. If you, as a player wanting to raid, try to fight the market, only you will get hurt.

[Neric]

It's a market and if the demand is higher than the supply, the price goes up. On the other hand, there are not that many players who qualify for a high-end guild. If guilds need a specific class they don't have much leverage. Besides that, the best players usually have a home already unless it broke up or some beef happend.

[arcsperia]

Even when you think that you know everything, trust me its not like that. There are some things that you cant learn outside of raiding. Those who are saying guilds are toxic, they can be, but what can you do when you bring someone, give them a chance and they keep dying over and over again to some basic mechanic that you can 150% avoid on 25 normal. Your chance is to either join progressive guild or make your own raids

[Neric]

Even when you think that you know everything, trust me its not like that. There are some things that you cant learn outside of raiding. Those who are saying guilds are toxic, they can be, but what can you do when you bring someone, give them a chance and they keep dying over and over again to some basic mechanic that you can 150% avoid on 25 normal. Your chance is to either join progressive guild or make your own raids

It's all about commitment after all. If your raid is in danger to be called off because some important class is missing, you have to take chances on newcomers. Yes, they will make the usual mistakes that everyone makes in ICC - the most obvious is missing the tomb-calls on Sindragosa - and that is working as intended, because the whole dungeon is designed as a constant knowledge-check combined with a bunch of random events in order to create inevitable chaos and nip all the micro-managers in the bud. What you are really looking for as a guild are newcomers who are committed to making it through. You want people who show up on time, give it their best effort and who don't give up. Eventually the newcomers will learn to avoid all the traps and eventually they will kill Lich King and get their "Kingslayer"-title as well, als countless others have done before. WotLK is not rocket-science. All of these grumpy veterans who claim to know everything about everything - but show average performance according to logs - just need to be a bit more patient.

P.S.: It's a cool trick to make a campfire for +5 spirit, but if veteran 6k+ mages can't even do 10k dps on a regular basis, they should look into the mirror. I don't are if they have a bis-warrior in another guild doing 12/12 heroic. Getting carried is one thing, but carrying others is a whole different ballgame.

[angrylol]

It's because they know it's not about the parses and whatever else noobs chase these days. They know when to nuke, they can do their slice of damage and they just chill. They did their max dps cool stuff some 5 years ago.

[fdbsfhe4rfar]

lmao. if you can't push two button, go play typhoon simulations.

[Neric]

It's because they know it's not about the parses and whatever else noobs chase these days. They know when to nuke, they can do their slice of damage and they just chill. They did their max dps cool stuff some 5 years ago.

That would be a pretty good argument, except the very same people usually claim that the newcomers are underporming based on what? Based on parses! This discussion is the perfect example, because it shows exactly what I am talking about. It could also happen on discord in such toxic guilds.

There are two types of parses: DPS vs. boss-health-pool and HPS vs. raid-health-pool. The first one is very important to beat enrange-timers, the second one doesn't matter as long as everyone stays alive. DPS classes do not compete against each other, healers do. That's why heal-snipers who only play for stats can get other healers into trouble if the guys who are analyzing the logs have no clue about raid-healing in general. Unfortunately that is not a rare case.

Once again: Wow is not rocket science. ICC is not rocket science either. Everyone can learn it and so far pretty much everyone has learned it. What guilds need are players who are committed, who show up, give it their best and don't give up. What they don't need is sarcastic griefers from poor countries who are waiting for their last heroic piece to reach full bis, so that their character has maximum market-value, they can sell it off and start all over again with their boosted twinks of classes they already have (hint). This "business model" may have worked 5 years ago in countries where $500 equals a year-income, but is in massive decline ever since the release of Classic. Maybe that's the reason why many of these veterans are sarcastic and grumpy after all. Who knows?

[angrylol]

Sounds like you wanted to join a guild where they do some specific stuff. 99% of guilds just want someone who knows perfectly what to do, dps is not even crucial factor, as long as it's not completely bad(cant combine mechanics, movement, timing with their rotation, clear sign that player has to go back to progression runs on N).
What the problem is, players want to join "end game" guilds while their skill/schedule makes their only realistic option to pug random raids or progression runs. They get reality check, an everyone is suddenly toxic.
Some guilds are ok to wipe on LK 3rd valkyrs+defile until defile is on someone who knows what to do. Some are not and everyone will have to move 0.3 secs after LK changes target for defile. These grumpy old farts see this as a basic common knowledge. And a lot of similar things on bosses. How can a player admit his mistake and assure everyone that he understands perfectly what went wrong and how to o it right, if he can't even understand he made a mistake(not enough understanding about mechanics, but "muh dps broo!").

TL;DR
Players who lack experience and understanding get kicked by old farts who see in depth complexities as a common knowledge. And toxicity comes in when that annoying slittle **** doesn't even understand what he did wrong(cant learn from it) and is wasting a lot of time. Then says "it's not a rocket science bro", that will make sure RL flips his ****, he will delete your dkp, kick your alts an then, lastly, your main char, while swearing all the way n chat and on discord.