MS change before raid

[keynk]

Hello guys, im a newbie. Just want to ask a question.

My MS is Unholy DK, before the raid leader ask everyone for MS change. If i changed from Unholy to Frost for loot rolls, but for the whole raid can i still use Unholy spec and roll for Frost items?

[angrylol]

Yes, if raid leader invites you as Unholy, agrees and announces before first boss that you will roll MS Frost.

[juzek22]

Isnt MS your current raid role? MS changed are just stupid.

Unless you sacrificed your role, the raid group asked for that specifically.

[ImTheKnight]

MS changes are good since some ppl join to help but they dont need gear for the spec they will play so with that a raid leader allowes them to roll other spec.

[juzek22]

No, it provides unnecessary conflicts—ninja looting. It's super unfair because real MS people losing potential progression and items. In addition of reserving random **** by raid leader + BoE's. It also makes omega high, unrealistic GS thresholds required to join specific raids. Its much more complex than you think.

[OhieMitzen]

Did you forget that the people changing the MS are also doing the work?

Let's say I join as 5.5k healer. Due to over abundance of healers, leader asks me to switch to DPS spec. My DPS spec happens to be 6k. I joined the raid because I wanted to gear my heal spec, so when leader asks for MS change, I say I want to roll for healer. Why would me changing MS be unfair? You wouldn't complain about 6k in a 5.5k raid, but you'd complain about the 6k changing MS?

How would you ever know what's my actual MS if I never changed MS roll? You just don't like when people roll for the same stuff that you do, but when they change MS away from your role, you jump from joy. If it bothers you so much, make your own raids with your own rules.

[juzek22]

If Raid needs that and asks you to do that, that's totally diffrent case.

Dumbest question ever, MS = current role. "How would you ever know what's my actual MS if I never changed MS roll?" What is this question, dude?

Lets say im a 6K gearscore war prot and all of a sudden i decide to roll DBW because, why not. And from 10 DPs that actually deserve to have it, Tank takes it. How is that fair and logical to you?

[angrylol]

You can not suddenly decide anything, you must negotiate it with raid leader and in turn whole group. Raid leader agrees and announces it in loot rules and everyone who disagree is free to leave. Fair and logical.

[Disktrasa]

You're all right and have a solid point. Listen.

I raid from the top guild to pugs, every week, last week 18 chars saved in icc 25... ye whatever nolife igaf, since 2009.

First of all. You will not belive how common it has become to "help roll" for a friend by swapping MS.
I play mostly full bis tons, and I play with a lot of people from various discord servers to guilds discords and atleast 1 person every single raid ... ATLEAST 1, asks me to help roll for them by swapping my MS incase I dont need some gear etc.
When you are trying to legit gear your char, another guy joins with several bis friends or whatever MS swapping or even 1 item swaps, like full bis toons with 1 "banner trink but only needs dbw" and he might not even be the only one who does that with that exact items you need for that raid.
That **** becomes unfair as hell, true, also a HUGE reason to why all leaders hold onto every single item until last second before Rolling, its not because just 1 or 2 guys leave after thats the only item they needed whatever, now, its more commonly 5+ people atleast, I seen around 1/3 of all pug raids, when I payed attention to this, half raid left... instantly, together like its almost like it was 2-3 players multiboxing..

On the other side, ofc you can do whatever you want if you wanna play smth but still MS this or that legit reason you have.

Ontop of this, the "The ninja policy".

There's so many factors. We spoke about this for years on forums before and right after implemented ninja rules, to make it as good as possibly without "loop holes" as I called them, Obnoxious himself was so sick of me he probably dreamt about banning me from forums at one point.

It's so complexed you would not belive it, belive me please. I was a strong advocate for this system to be implemented for years.
The system as it is right now is as damn near perfect as it can be, any opinion or reason you can think of, I can explain why it is the way it is, belive me.
Can link even some of the more heated discussions if you like to.

Thers A LOT of more factors etc but it's allready a wall of text... trying to keep 2-3 points only regarded...so.

[juzek22]

I agree with almost everything from post above. Solid wall of text.

Rolling for a friend is a solid problem simply because its unfair.

On paper, this "rule" can be good, but in practice, its only good for people who are abusing it above limits.
1. You never know if people call their MS the different one that they use; if they really use it, play it and have solid gear.
for example,
I can play Holy Pala with 5.5k gs; call my MS as a tank with 0 items ready to play it. Simply because i have no items to drop from said raid to my holy spec. Is it fair to tanks that really need those items? Not rly
2. Like in the post above, someone can be fully geared and still roll for a friend by changing his MS.
3. If someone has for example, a healing spec and there is a space for healer, but he plays dps spec just to play something easier with low effort, thats stupid.
4. Nobody is tracking that perfectly, i had balance druid who called his MS feral, but still rolling balance items(caster tinkets and so on) like its his first spec, BECAUSE hes balance right? WTF

EVERY SYSTEM BASED ON HUMAN TRUST AND BRAIN IS NOT GOING TO WORK GOOD; you can't disagree with that, people will abuse everything. I am 100% all the people above abused or abusing it to this day, that's why they are defending it.

[angrylol]

EVERY SYSTEM BASED ON HUMAN TRUST AND BRAIN IS NOT GOING TO WORK GOOD; you can't disagree with that, people will abuse everything. I am 100% all the people above abused or abusing it to this day, that's why they are defending it.

People like agency over how they play the game, it's absolutely necessary for the game to work. Splitting the loot is extremely important aspect of the game, just like PVP, trading or exploring, and there are also plenty of people who want to tell others how they should trade, pvp or anything. For all the wrong reasons.

Instead of insulting everyone with baseless accusations, you better work out why you submissively yearn for big daddy to come and tell you how to play.

[juzek22]

I am telling that current state is bad, which is true.

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I have "baseless accusations"? All the examples are raw examples from the game.

Baseless is you thinking it works fine. I gave you multiple arguments and examples, when you are only focusing on proving me wrong instead of giving opposite arguments.
All you say is "No, you are not right, everything is perfect".
If you can only nod without making your own thinking, please don't contiunue.

[angrylol]

It's factually baseless, because such scenario is already against the rules. That means you don't have any evidence, only your imagination.

At no point I said it's perfect, that's just another thing that came out of your imagination.

It's not supposed to be perfect, that's the whole point. Pursuit of "perfection" is dumbest idea, it not achievable and it will cost everything to gain nothing.

[Obnoxious]

If you dislike raids that allow "MS changes," I have great news for you: despite what you might believe, you aren't forced to join them. Seriously, I'm not messing with you, you can not join any of them! Mind-boggling, ain't it? Even better, as that sort of change has to be made public before the raid starts, you can just leave if an MS swap is declared at some point!

Sounds too good to be true? Well, in this case it's 100% true!

But why stop the good news at that? Yes, there's more! You are total and completely free to be the raid leader, manage and organize the whole thing, and not allow MS changes! It doesn't get any better than that!

PS: About the whole "rolling for a friend," that's covered in the rules. It isn't allowed, but it's something you would have to prove with evidence in a report. If that isn't acceptable for you, read the above again.

[OhieMitzen]

On paper, this "rule" can be good, but in practice, its only good for people who are abusing it above limits.
1. You never know if people call their MS the different one that they use; if they really use it, play it and have solid gear.
for example,
I can play Holy Pala with 5.5k gs; call my MS as a tank with 0 items ready to play it. Simply because i have no items to drop from said raid to my holy spec. Is it fair to tanks that really need those items? Not rly
2. Like in the post above, someone can be fully geared and still roll for a friend by changing his MS.
3. If someone has for example, a healing spec and there is a space for healer, but he plays dps spec just to play something easier with low effort, thats stupid.
4. Nobody is tracking that perfectly, i had balance druid who called his MS feral, but still rolling balance items(caster tinkets and so on) like its his first spec, BECAUSE hes balance right? WTF

EVERY SYSTEM BASED ON HUMAN TRUST AND BRAIN IS NOT GOING TO WORK GOOD; you can't disagree with that, people will abuse everything. I am 100% all the people above abused or abusing it to this day, that's why they are defending it.

1. How should one start playing their new OS when they have no items for it. Should they go to Northrend starter zones, use their heal specs to kill mobs for quests to get tank/dps items, then start building from there. Eventually going through draining RDF spam process with their 3.2k GS gear that everybody has problems with. Leading to raids if they ever make it that far with ridiculous GS demands.

It's not about who deserves/needs it the most. People have gotten banned over this.
You participate in raid -> you get rewarded if you roll higher than others.

2. They "can" while still being against rules.

IN-GAME NINJA POLICY
Example of forbidden acts:
Need rolling for other players to have 2 or more roll chances at one item.

There's no proper way to reinforce it than reporting it retroactively.

3. I'm sorry what. People play what they want to play. You don't have a high ground if you play certain spec over others.
4. This is ofc obvious attempt at ninja rolling, hoping leader wouldn't notice. Recommendation for all raid leaders: spam that MS change macro before every roll. If they don't do it, you can copy the macro message (with the help of chat addons) and say it once in a while. Ofc it's simple to say "they roll feral btw".

Without ninja rules, all this would be allowed and you wouldn't have a say in the matter. With the rules in place, they (should) steer people away from breaking the rules to begin with.